Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

[gforce]

Philippine Navy Modernization

DND rushing acquisition of Navy vessels
(The Philippine Star) Updated May 16, 2010 12:00 AM

MANILA, Philippines - Outgoing Defense Secretary Norberto Gonzales is rushing the acquisition of one or two multi-role vessels through a government-to-government contract at a cost of from P5 billion to P10 billion... either from Singapore or South Korea.

DND rushing acquisition of Navy vessels | The Philippine Star >> News >> Headlines

I have no Intel yet on what type or class of navy vessels will be acquired by the Philippine Navy.

Recent Philippine Navy modernization acquisitions:

1. Last May 2009, The PN inaugurated 3 newly-acquired Multi-Purpose Attack Crafts in its 111th Anniversary Celebration.

2. Cyclone-class patrol ship from the U.S. Navy in March 2004 and renamed as BRP Mariano Alvarez (PS-38).

3. Peacock-class patrol corvettes from the British Royal Navy - Hong Kong Squadron in August 1997 and designated as the Jacinto class corvettes.

Most debated topic:

Guided Missiles vs. Oto Melara guns for the modern Philippine Navy.

 

[Juramentado]

The MPACs are pretty neat (bone-jarringly fast - my dad got a ride from Basilan on one of them this past Christmas), but what RPN really needs is more COIN oriented vessels. Note that since 2002, the USN has been providing soft support to RP through use of lighterage type boats such as C-Champion, an SSV that's been doubling as a logistical transport down South in Zamboanga area. Acquiring COIN vessels would coincide with the planned US military drawdown worldwide - the strategy now is COIN Lite - meaning less US troops on the ground and more advisory roles, assuming the local government forces are competent enough to stand on their own (which RPN is). More shallow draft vessels to enter the various waterways and get to places that don't have proper docks, and those vessels need to be able to carry troops - a lot of the new and legacy opponents in RP still are mostly traditional insurgents - very little call to utilize any form of armor (and the terrain down South doesn't support it). The parallel requirements would be more air transports like newer Herky Birds and heavy lift helos.

If major naval procurements are really needed - RP needs a true OPV - something with good range, excellent fuel consumption ratios, up-to-date AS/SS and is capable of putting out small boats in a mothership role, and preferably a helo deck. Missiles are very cost and labor intensive; if nothing else, a good 57 or 76mm main gun with 25mm auxiliaries. Personally, I think something a little smaller than what Navantia built for Venezuela - their POVZEE design - is a good starting point. Complement that with either a re-engineered MPA (upgrade the BN Islanders!) or maybe a new aquisition like a Fokker F27 and you've got the RPN back on track.

 

[gforce]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/alternatives-anti-ship-missiles-10323/

I created a separate thread above that aims to canvass and generate opinions about alternative options to very expensive anti-ship missiles other than laying mines (which is condemned by our government) and using guns for the poor Philippine Navy.

If major naval procurements are really needed - RP needs a true OPV - something with good range, excellent fuel consumption ratios, up-to-date AS/SS and is capable of putting out small boats in a mothership role, and preferably a helo deck. Missiles are very cost and labor intensive; if nothing else, a good 57 or 76mm main gun with 25mm auxiliaries. Personally, I think something a little smaller than what Navantia built for Venezuela - their POVZEE design - is a good starting point.

I was thinking about a fast corvette (streamlined hull and 30+ knots twin prop engine) for the Philippine Navy that can operate longer in the rough open seas and is armed with a 76mm Oto Melara gun (http://www.military.ie/naval/flotilla/weapons/oto.jpg) in front, an Anti-Ship weapon system in the mid-stern section (see http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/alternatives-anti-ship-missiles-10323/), a twin high caliber machine gun (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Twin_.50_caliber_machine_gun.jpg) in the stern, a standard machine gun (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...20701-N-0111R-083_MK-38_25_mm_Machine_Gun.jpg) stand on each side of the ship, a RHIB launcher deck ramp also in the stern, and portable shoulder-fired Anti-Aircraft missile launchers (http://www.navalhistory.dk/images/Vaaben/Missiler/Stinger_korvet.jpg) carried out from the ship deck or from the skipper room by a gunnery sailor.

Is there an online ship designing software that can create an image output of our ideas?

 

[Juramentado]

If you haven't already, please check out Timawa.net forum to look at the hard choices in AFP Modernization - there's a whole subforum of collected threads on real-world development and procurement issues.

As for software, even the most basic programs still cost a pretty penny; there are many to be had out there - AutoCAD, Lightwave, 3DStudio. There's also a lot of independent design houses out there willing to sell you basic plans for existing ships that you could use as a basis. This isn't my area of expertise, hopefully someone can point you to Freeware/Shareware that is more accessible and doesn't require a lot of training to use.

 

[meat_helmet]

Is there an online ship designing software that can create an image output of our ideas?

Your best bet is to use Google Sketchup. It is not designed for naval design but it is a resonable 3D program that is free and easy to learn in comparison to more advanced programs. You could also look for Blender 3D if that is still free. Otherwise you are looking at very expensive programs in terms of 3D applications as already stated. I am not aware of any free maritime design software and I would bet there isnt any.

Or you could pay me too do it

 

[Thiel]

Or you could go 2D with Shipbucket - Home

 

[STURM]

The MPACs are pretty neat (bone-jarringly fast - my dad got a ride from Basilan on one of them this past Christmas), but what RPN really needs is more COIN oriented vessels.

For inshore work, wouldn't a fleet of CB-90s fitted with a 20mm mount or a 7.62mm/Mk19 combo be perfect for patrolling the waters in the south?

To avoid high operating costs and manning issues, any future OPV should be in the 900-1,200 tonne region. Ideally it would have a landing spot if not a hangar and an electro-optical device. Other stuff like a missile launcher which gforce proposed, can wait for the moment as the cash can be spent on immediate priorities. Assuming there are no plans to build it locally, a South Korean shipyard would be a much cheaper alternative than going European.

 

[Juramentado]

For inshore work, wouldn't a fleet of CB-90s fitted with a 20mm mount or a 7.62mm/Mk19 combo be perfect for patrolling the waters in the south?

Assuming there are no plans to build it locally, a South Korean shipyard would be a much cheaper alternative than going European.

CB-90s would be nice. A lot of CB-90s would be even better. As long as the accident that happened in Hamnudden was fixed, that would be a great asset.

True - local shipyards would be great, and would reduce foreign dependence on repair/refit/upgrade. The problem is that that the RP DND does not have a mature procurement process - so the process somewhat puts local bidders at a disadvantage. SK or Taiwanese shipyards could probably deliver a good OPV baseline and then client can pick and choose electronics suite, F/C, weps etc.

 

[gforce]

Thank you all for the inputs about the online ship designing software. I will try some of those because I am interested in joining the next Philippine Navy ship building and designing contest which they held during their anniversary celebrations.

 

[Juramentado]

Thank you all for the inputs about the online ship designing software. I will try some of those because I am interested in joining the next Philippine Navy ship building and designing contest which they held during their anniversary celebrations.

The SK have a new PB/OPV that comes close to what RPN could use - still needs a helo deck though -

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_Killer_eXperimental"]Gumdoksuri class patrol vessel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/FileKX.jpg" class="image" title="Yoon Young Ha class patrol ship"><img alt="Yoon Young Ha class patrol ship" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c0/PKX.jpg/300px-PKX.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/c/c0/PKX.jpg/300px-PKX.jpg[/ame]

Good starting point anyway...

 

[gforce]

I love this simple Australian OPV never been built design for the Philippine Navy...

Shipbucket - Never Built Designs/Australia/Aus OPV Tenix 81m 1.gif

 

[gforce]

'Navy land lease requires law'
By Christina Mendez (The Philippine Star) Updated July 30, 2010 12:00 AM

Mr. Aquino bared last Wednesday during The STAR’s 24th anniversary that negotiations to lease out the Navy’s major facilities on Roxas Boulevard and Taguig City for private commercial development in order to raise funds for fleet modernization are in advanced stages.

Mr. Aquino also said the private developer, who he declined to name until the deal is finalized, is willing to give an initial $100 million as goodwill money, enough for the Navy to purchase four new ships to patrol the country’s 36,000 nautical miles of coastline.

What could these 4 warships be? $100 million / 4 = $25 million each

 

[Juramentado]

'Navy land lease requires law'
By Christina Mendez (The Philippine Star) Updated July 30, 2010 12:00 AM



What could these 4 warships be? $100 million / 4 = $25 million each

It would seem the deal is not as straightforward as land-lease for funding. See the ongoing thread at Timawa.

As for the vessels themselves, at 25 million, they would have to include parts, training and maintenance, so the actual per-hull cost would be much much less. That would make them patrol class boats, and likely just gun-armed with no helo capability. That's still better than nothing.

 

[gforce]

It would seem the deal is not as straightforward as land-lease for funding. See the ongoing thread at Timawa.

As for the vessels themselves, at 25 million, they would have to include parts, training and maintenance, so the actual per-hull cost would be much much less. That would make them patrol class boats, and likely just gun-armed with no helo capability. That's still better than nothing.

The Royal New Zealand Navy Protector-class OPV cost $25,000,000 per ship (complete with parts and maintenance) and it is a lightly-armed helicopter-carrying patrol ship w/ 4 RHIBs.

 

[adroth]

Status of select modernization items:

Multi-Purpose Attack Craft (MPAC) - bid for lot 2 completed, expected delivery 2011

Landing Craft Utility - contract approved for domestic production

Multi-role vessel - Makassar platform selected, first round of funding approved for 2010. Additional funding for 2011 and 2012 in process

 

[swerve]

The Makassar looks like a good choice for the Philippines. Cheap to buy, & should be much cheaper to operate than a second-hand USN or other old amphib.

 

[ManilaBoy]

Transfer of 1 USCG Cutter Hamilton Class to the PN Tru FMS...

Talks are on the final stage beetween the US and the AFP of the aquisition, which would make this ship the largest in the PN inventory at 378 feet with a beam of 43 feet and would replace the WW2 ERA flagship BRP Rajah Humabon PF-11...

Philippine Navy eyeing purchase from US

The Makassar looks like a good choice for the Philippines. Cheap to buy, & should be much cheaper to operate than a second-hand USN or other old amphib.

I DISAGREE, so does the PN I think...That is why it has decided to aquire 1 Hamilton Class Cutter from the US tru FMS and is already scheduled for transfer sometime this year as a replacement for the current flagship BRP Rajah Humabon which is a vintage WW2 ERA vessel...

 

[STURM]

I DISAGREE, so does the PN I think...That is why it has decided to aquire 1 Hamilton Class Cutter from the US tru FMS and is already scheduled for transfer sometime this year as a replacement for the current flgship BRP Rajah Humabon which is a vintage WW2 ERA boat...

What Swerve meant is that for disaster relief and transport, the Makassar would be cheaper, compared to a western design, which I agree. The Makassar is a 7,000 odd tonne LPD and the Hamilton is a cutter, both have very different roles. On paper the Hamilton should be cheaper to operate than the Makassar because it's a smaller vessel. The Hamilton is bigger than most patrol vessels currently operated by the PN, about 2,900 tonnes, and operating it will eat up a slice of the budget.

 

[ManilaBoy]

What Swerve meant is that for disaster relief and transport, the Makassar would be cheaper, compared to a western design, which I agree. The Makassar is a 7,000 odd tonne LPD and the Hamilton is a cutter, both have very different roles. On paper the Hamilton should be cheaper to operate than the Makassar because it's a smaller vessel. The Hamilton is bigger than most patrol vessels currently operated by the PN, about 2,900 tonnes, and operating it will eat up a slice of the budget.

I see, Thanks for the explanation...Your right about the operating cost for the future Hamilton Class ship once it arrived, but that is just part of becoming a 'Green Water Navy'...

 

[Sea Toby]

Talks are on the final stage beetween the US and the AFP of the aquisition, which would make this ship the largest in the PN inventory at 378 feet with a beam of 43 feet and would replace the WW2 ERA flagship BRP Rajah Humabon PF-11...

Philippine Navy eyeing purchase from US

These cutters are old, the Philippines should be able to get them at almost no cost.... I believe Uruguay is also interested in possibly getting a few of the Hamilton cutters... Of the twelve, some are still in pretty good shape, and some aren't... Choose wisely...