Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

[ADMk2]

I'm worried about the flying hours left in those second-hand birds.

Several airforces around the world (Portugal and Chile) aren't that concerned about the airframe left on these aircraft apparently (having already bought considerable numbers) and many airforces (USAF, Netherlands, Taiwan and Pakistan notably) are running significant F-16 life extension programs, which provide a fairly cost effective option and offer up to 50% more airframe life. At 200 hours per year (a fairly high usage rate) that gives you 20 more years of effective life...

The USAF is about to increase about 300x F-16's to 12,000 hour airframe life spans, due to F-35 delays. I imagine it would be rather cost effective to run 24 upgraded fighters off the back of such an upgrade too.

With a bit of creative thinking, it might be possible to establish a local upgrade facility and perhaps run some Korean or Japanese based USAF F-16's through a joint upgrade program, to make it economically viable and improve domestic aerospace capability as well as your own ability to support modern fighter aircraft.

Alternatively piggy-backing onto Taiwan's F-16 upgrade may provide a useful secondary option, that would allow a fairly handy aircraft if your country pursued all the options, including AESA radar etc.

 

[icefrog]

Several airforces around the world (Portugal and Chile) aren't that concerned about the airframe left on these aircraft apparently (having already bought considerable numbers) and many airforces (USAF, Netherlands, Taiwan and Pakistan notably) are running significant F-16 life extension programs, which provide a fairly cost effective option and offer up to 50% more airframe life. At 200 hours per year (a fairly high usage rate) that gives you 20 more years of effective life...

The USAF is about to increase about 300x F-16's to 12,000 hour airframe life spans, due to F-35 delays. I imagine it would be rather cost effective to run 24 upgraded fighters off the back of such an upgrade too.

With a bit of creative thinking, it might be possible to establish a local upgrade facility and perhaps run some Korean or Japanese based USAF F-16's through a joint upgrade program, to make it economically viable and improve domestic aerospace capability as well as your own ability to support modern fighter aircraft.

Alternatively piggy-backing onto Taiwan's F-16 upgrade may provide a useful secondary option, that would allow a fairly handy aircraft if your country pursued all the options, including AESA radar etc.

They can piggy-back onto South Korea's F-16 upgrade instead plus Korea's F-16 C/Ds are newer than Taiwan's A/B airframes. It would be a lot cheaper to upgrade and refurbish a less used C/D airfame than all the way from a more-used A/B airframe. Also, despite the Philippines' and China current "arguments", Phils. still follows the One-China policy and it would be impossible for China not to know any back-door agreements and that would only increase tensions and distrust further.

 

[Ananda]

They can piggy-back onto South Korea's F-16 upgrade instead plus Korea's F-16 C/Ds are newer than Taiwan's A/B airframes. It would be a lot cheaper to upgrade and refurbish a less used C/D airfame than all the way from a more-used A/B airframe.

All F-16 A/B that coming from 1988 onwards already delivered as F-16 OCU. That included F-16 A/B being used by Thailand, Singapore (now already transferred to Thailand), Indonesia, and Taiwan. For Taiwan, their A/B are among the last A/B produced by Lockheed and being produced parallel with block 25/30/32 C/D. Taiwan F-16 A/B has the same age with ROKAF F-16 C/D, and with ROKAF and Taiwan AF used their F-16 extensively, I bet they also have similar flight hours.

Taiwan plan upgrade for their F-16 A/B is very extensive which also include AESA radar. It's very expensive and extensive upgrade, that PAF will be 'very lucky' if it can piggy back with the project (if US and Taiwan allowed it).

 

[icefrog]

All F-16 A/B that coming from 1988 onwards already delivered as F-16 OCU. That included F-16 A/B being used by Thailand, Singapore (now already transferred to Thailand), Indonesia, and Taiwan. For Taiwan, their A/B are among the last A/B produced by Lockheed and being produced parallel with block 25/30/32 C/D. Taiwan F-16 A/B has the same age with ROKAF F-16 C/D, and with ROKAF and Taiwan AF used their F-16 extensively, I bet they also have similar flight hours.

Taiwan plan upgrade for their F-16 A/B is very extensive which also include AESA radar. It's very expensive and extensive upgrade, that PAF will be 'very lucky' if it can piggy back with the project (if US and Taiwan allowed it).

I already said they can't go Taiwan and explained why. Several years back Taiwan was willing to donate their entire fleet of F5s to the Phils. Phils rejected it because they want to observe the One-China policy. Back in 1998, US wanted to sell embargoed Pakistani F-16s to the Phils. Phils. decided not to get it because it was in the middle of the Asian financial crisis and would be political suicide for politicians approving it.

What Taiwan is paying for is actually cheaper than what Indonesia will be paying for their refurbished F-16s and they include AESA radar. Indonesia only gets APG V(9)

 

[Ananda]

I already said they can't go Taiwan and explained why. Several years back Taiwan was willing to donate their entire fleet of F5s to the Phils. Phils rejected it because they want to observe the One-China policy. Back in 1998, US wanted to sell embargoed Pakistani F-16s to the Phils. Phils. decided not to get it because it was in the middle of the Asian financial crisis and would be political suicide for politicians approving it.

What Taiwan is paying for is actually cheaper than what Indonesia will be paying for their refurbished F-16s and they include AESA radar. Indonesia only gets APG V(9)

I'm not talking about Political issue of why Philippine can't go with Taiwan due to one China policy. I'm talking more about your jump conclusions that Taiwan F-16 A/B is older and more used airframes than ROKAF F-16.

Why, you bring Indonesia in your reply. It's irrelevant. I put my comment since you're saying ROKAF F-16 C/D is newer than Taiwan F-16 A/B, which I say it's not the case since those Taiwan F-16 A/B coming in the mid 90's at the same time with much of ROKAF F-16 C/D.

Taiwan USD 5 bio upgrade for 140 airframe seems cheaper than Indonesia upgrade of USD 750 mio for only 24 airframe, on the based of Taiwan got Aesa and Indonesian upgrade don't. However it's also jump to easy conclusions since you do not know the extent work of the Indonesian upgrade (which I also do not know since the information still sketchy). It might be since the ex USAF Block 25 that being used for Indonesian upgrade actually need much more work compared to Taiwan Block 15 OCU. Then if that the case it shows actually that Taiwan F-16 A/B airframes are in better conditions then many C/D Airframes.

You seems jump to easy conclusions saying since Taiwan F-16 is Block 15 A/B then it's much more used than ROKAF C/D. Do you have extent information on that ?

 

[Ananda]

Confirmation 10 Attack Helicopters for PAF:
Air Force to get 10 more attack helicopters

BEFORE the end of the year, the Philippines would have 10 new attack helicopters, and the go-ahead has also been given for the purchase of 12 service attack aircraft–lead-in, fighter-trainer (SAA/LIFT) to form part of the P75-billion modernization program of the Armed Forces.

De la Cruz said the four contenders for the jetfighter are Italy, Korea, Russia and the UK.

The purchase of the attack helicopters has been approved and these would be provided by Italy.

“I was in Italy to look at some of the attack helicopters that were offered and hopefully, we will have them by the end of the year,” he added.

He said the Philippines preferred the Italian models because they are cheaper compared to those made by Americans, which are top of the line and are very expensive.

The attack helicopters would replace the ageing OV-10 “Bronco” armed reconnaissance planes and MG-520 attack helicopters currently in the Air Force inventory.

Interesting that the attack helicopter will be operated by the Air Force. I do agree though that COIN should be replaced by attack Helicopter. On my posts in Indonesian Air Force Thread I already put my opinion that replacing OV-10 by Super Tucano (or other COIN Aircraft) should not be done and attack helicopter should take the burden from specialized COIN fighter. Personally I'm glad other Armed Forces share my opinion for replacing COIN with Attack Helicopter .

Seems according to this the position of KAI TA-50 for PAF LIFT/Light Fighter programed is not secured yet. Korean vs Italian (TA-50 vs M-346) still in the game.

 

[Zhaow]

If PAF really wanted attack helicopters, we could have gave them some of the old AH-1s that we have in the Bone yard that they can use for their fleet as well. I think for PAF, AH-1 are a perfect fit for them and their are still countries that are operating them.

 

[icefrog]

I'm not talking about Political issue of why Philippine can't go with Taiwan due to one China policy. I'm talking more about your jump conclusions that Taiwan F-16 A/B is older and more used airframes than ROKAF F-16.

Why, you bring Indonesia in your reply. It's irrelevant. I put my comment since you're saying ROKAF F-16 C/D is newer than Taiwan F-16 A/B, which I say it's not the case since those Taiwan F-16 A/B coming in the mid 90's at the same time with much of ROKAF F-16 C/D.

Taiwan USD 5 bio upgrade for 140 airframe seems cheaper than Indonesia upgrade of USD 750 mio for only 24 airframe, on the based of Taiwan got Aesa and Indonesian upgrade don't. However it's also jump to easy conclusions since you do not know the extent work of the Indonesian upgrade (which I also do not know since the information still sketchy). It might be since the ex USAF Block 25 that being used for Indonesian upgrade actually need much more work compared to Taiwan Block 15 OCU. Then if that the case it shows actually that Taiwan F-16 A/B airframes are in better conditions then many C/D Airframes.

You seems jump to easy conclusions saying since Taiwan F-16 is Block 15 A/B then it's much more used than ROKAF C/D. Do you have extent information on that ?

Mentioning the Indonesian deal is very relevant because it is for comparison purposes as you want to allude that the Taiwan deal is VERY EXPENSIVE when in fact it is very reasonable and esp. in comparison to what Indonesia got. Taiwan's deal is now both cheaper via acquisition cost and extent of upgrade ( better than Indonesia). Taiwan deal has been negotiated down to only $3.7B from $5B. That comes out at more or less $25M. That deal has been featured all-over, including at defencetalk.

Also, regardless if it's older or not it's a moot point w/c is why my whole point on why I keep mentioning the One-China policy. Philippines still can't get anything from Taiwan. I say it's older, you say it's not. It does not matter since Phils. observes the Once-China policy.

You don't know the extent of the Indonesian deal? All we need to know is it's only up to block 50/52 and it's doesn't come with AESA. This is in the public domain. Why do you not know that?? There's no fast-one here. Everything is transparent.[Mod edit: Various senior members have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread but you continue to hold fast to your fortress of mistaken beliefs. And I have already issued you a official warning in a prior post. The quality of your posts is falling below a sensible threshold and again another senior member is telling you, that you are wrong. Learn to listen and provide sources for your facts.

Red or maroon text is a warning given to members of a thread. When you see a mod text in your post, do not delete it and there is no need to respond to it. Kindly observe the usual forum decorum and there will be no further reminders.

Read the Forum Rules before posting again. General warning issued for going off-topic to any and all in the thread. The next time the Mod Team has to issue you another warning, you will face administrative sanctions. If you don't change your attitude, don't bother posting in this forum.]

 

[icefrog]

If PAF really wanted attack helicopters, we could have gave them some of the old AH-1s that we have in the Bone yard that they can use for their fleet as well. I think for PAF, AH-1 are a perfect fit for them and their are still countries that are operating them.

As much as possible they want something b-new esp. if they think they can afford it. Anyway, UK was mentioned so who knows. Until they make the announcement we won't know for sure.

 

[Ananda]

Also, regardless if it's older or not it's a moot point w/c is why my whole point on why I keep mentioning the One-China policy. Philippines still can't get anything from Taiwan. I say it's older, you say it's not. It does not matter since Phils. observes the Once-China policy.

You don't know the extent of the Indonesian deal? All we need to know is it's only up to block 50/52 and it's doesn't come with AESA. This is in the public domain. Why do you not know that?? There's no fast-one here. Everything is transparent. [Mod edit: Various senior members have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread but you continue to hold fast to your fortress of mistaken beliefs. And I have already issued you a official warning in a prior post. The quality of your posts is falling below a sensible threshold and again another senior member is telling you, that you are wrong. Learn to listen and provide sources for your facts.

Red or maroon text is a warning given to members of a thread. When you see a mod text in your post, do not delete it and there is no need to respond to it. Kindly observe the usual forum decorum and there will be no further reminders.

Read the Forum Rules before posting again. General warning issued for going off-topic to any and all in the thread. The next time the Mod Team has to issue you another warning, you will face administrative sanctions. If you don't change your attitude, don't bother posting in this forum.]

How do you know the extent of Indonesian deal ? All the technical negotiation is not finish yet (at least officially). The budget for the deal is USD 750 mio. However it's not the final amount. The deal can be less or more, it will depend on the extent of the work.
Just to see the specification of Block 50/52 than you will now how much the work ? again that oversimplification. Not all Block 50/52 have same standard of electronics for one thing. all depend on the customers specifications. Not all the electronics and sensors that's being upgraded will be open to public information. Also how much the upgrade work will be done to each airframe can be vary. This's only some example on how much the variance can happen on each upgrade work.

As for why I said that Taiwan upgrade job is VERY EXPENSIVE, well, it's Very Expensive for Southeast Asia Standard (except for Singapore). Taiwan can reduce the costs of upgrade for each 'airframe' since the economics scale' factor. They are doing the job for 140+ airframe. The costs per airframe for similar upgrade job conducted for another customer with 'much less' airframe will be different. That's just common business practice on every Industry.

You're sidetracking on issue of Taiwan older airframe now. You are the one that bring Taiwan Airframe is much older and used compared to ROKAF ones.

 

[Haavarla]

Any reason in particulary why most folks here seems to have written the Yak-130 off in this Tender?

 

[Todjaeger]

Any reason in particulary why most folks here seems to have written the Yak-130 off in this Tender?

I suspect it has to due with issue which the PAF would potentially encounter sourcing kit from both the East and West. If the PAF were looking at having Russian sourced MRF's then the Yak-130 would look like a more viable choice.

My personal preference would be for the PAF to get some T/A-50's from SKorea as they can provide training and some lightweight fighter/attack capabilities. IMO though, many are being premature. Reintroduction, or introduction of new capabilities, needs to be a long term objective. It is not something which can be accomplished in the short term. If the AFP went on a spending spree and purchased all sorts of kit...

Does the AFP have the personnel to make effective use of the kit? How about the maintence staff? Are the appropriate facilities to house and operate the kit from? Lastly (and perhaps most importantly) is there a commitment from the AFP and Gov't to sustain the capability? Without sustainment, and the requisite funding, then replacement parts will not get purchased when needed, obsolete components will not get replaced with more up to date components, etc.

Keep in mind, for brand new kit like ships and fighters, things with an estimated service life measured in decades, the initial programme purchase cost usually works out to being about a third of the total programme cost. In other words, before recommending some shiny new fighter for the PAF, one should stop and ask, "can the AFP commit to spending 2x the initial cost over the next three decades?"

Given the scope of AFP funding and responsibilities over the past few decades, it IMO does not seem safe to assume so.

-Cheers

 

[ManilaBoy]

The 10 attack helicopter acquisition project will most like be supplied by Italy instead of France as earlier reported and might arrive before the end of 2012 says PAF chief Lt. General Lauro Catalino De La Cruz ...

http://world.einnews.com/article/106213035?continued=1

 

[Andri F]

I suspect it has to due with issue which the PAF would potentially encounter sourcing kit from both the East and West. If the PAF were looking at having Russian sourced MRF's then the Yak-130 would look like a more viable choice.

My personal preference would be for the PAF to get some T/A-50's from SKorea as they can provide training and some lightweight fighter/attack capabilities. IMO though, many are being premature. Reintroduction, or introduction of new capabilities, needs to be a long term objective. It is not something which can be accomplished in the short term. If the AFP went on a spending spree and purchased all sorts of kit...

Does the AFP have the personnel to make effective use of the kit? How about the maintence staff? Are the appropriate facilities to house and operate the kit from? Lastly (and perhaps most importantly) is there a commitment from the AFP and Gov't to sustain the capability? Without sustainment, and the requisite funding, then replacement parts will not get purchased when needed, obsolete components will not get replaced with more up to date components, etc.

Keep in mind, for brand new kit like ships and fighters, things with an estimated service life measured in decades, the initial programme purchase cost usually works out to being about a third of the total programme cost. In other words, before recommending some shiny new fighter for the PAF, one should stop and ask, "can the AFP commit to spending 2x the initial cost over the next three decades?"

Given the scope of AFP funding and responsibilities over the past few decades, it IMO does not seem safe to assume so.

-Cheers

The civilian government and the congress are the main obstacles of modernization. The gov't probably fears a coup attempt wherein bomb-laden MRFs will thunder above Malacanang. If China doesn't intensify its "provocations" or if the AFP wouldn't rebel unless a minimum of $ 5 billion budget is provided this year, then modernization will be slow because it will have to compete with agriculture and education.

How Philippines can play trump card vs China | ABS-CBN News

Is this a true solution or would it just result in a status quo?

[Mod Edit: Thread closed pending Mod discussion, as it has derailed again and veered from a discussion on the air force to purely the political realm and we don't purely political discussions at DT.

You have been previously warned about the quality of your posts and your inability to observe Forum Rules. You are banned for 21 days to enable you to both read the threads (instead of just mindlessly posting rubbish) and the rules. A one-liner post with a link is still a violation of forum rules. Continued going off-topic and failing to heed mod instructions is another reason for your current ban. Develop a real interest in the defence matters you post about.

Further to Todjaeger's post above on the issue of sustainability and funding, here are some numbers (to give an idea of their ability to sustain their equipment):-

Maintenance and Other Operating Expenses (from National Expenditure Program, the executive department's funding request that Congress has to turn into a law)

.........................................................................2012 (Proposed)
Travelling Expenses............................................168,681,000
Communication Expenses.....................................30,105,000
Repair and Maintenance...................................1,975,996,000
Transportation and Delivery Expenses.....................23,555,000
Supplies and Materials.......................................1,403,022,000
Rents.....................................................................2,133,000
Subsidies and Donations............................................600,000
Uti,ity Expenses...................................................272,709,000
Training and Scholarship Expenses.........................60,056,000
Extraordinary and Miscellaneous Expenses................6,011,000
Confidential and Intelligence Expenses.....................12,000,000
Taxes, Insurance Premiums and Other Fees.............17,975,000
Professional Services................................................9,683,000
Printing and Binding Expenses...................................2,972,000
Advertising Expenses.................................................2,592,000
Representation Expenses..........................................97,512,000
Storage Expenses...........................................................50,000
Subscription Expenses................................................3,241,000
Survey Expenses...........................................................182,000
Membership Dues and Contributions to Organizations.......140,000
Awards and Indemnities...........................................48,000
Rewards and Other Claims.....................................150,000

Total Maintenance and Other Operating Expenses ..........4,089,263,000

Have you seen their historically small defence budget, a point brought up by others in the thread (and their 2012 annual MOOE budget, at page 58 and cited above)?]

 

[shaun]

I LIKE the look of the Korean T-50's but can the PAF maintain them I done doubt the
professionalism or ability of the airman but is the philippine govt ready to commit the rescources both financially and politically needed to maintain an expensive capability such as two squadrons of modern fighter planes. On another note I'm glad America hasn't been able to come up with the goods it has allowed the PAF to come of age and start following some home grown solutions to lack of capability problems.

 

[colay]

Indications are that the PAF is inclined toward acquiring attack helos from Italy. The AW-109 would appear to be the front-runner if the linked article is accurate. Not really a dedicated attack helo but a multirole designthat will be a very welcome addition to the PAF.

DEFENSE STUDIES: Italy Also Offers Attack Helicopter to Philippines

AGUSTAWESTLAND

Category: Light

Description:

The AW109 Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) has established itself as a best-selling military light-twin helicopter able to satisfy a wide range of military requirements. This ability to fulfil a wide range of missions makes the aircraft a true force multiplier, providing military commanders with excellent operational flexibility. The AW109 LUH is a rugged helicopter with excellent ballistic tolerance, redundancy of systems and crashworthiness for maximum safety and survivability. Avionics include an advanced digital cockpit, based on 3 AMLCDs and a digital 4-axis AFCS. A vast array of advanced equipment including sophisticated sensors are available. The integrated Mission Equipment Package (MEP) includes day/night and IFR avionics for single or dual pilot operations with a four-axis digital Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS). The availability of a wide range of mission equipment makes the LUH a real multi-role helicopter, able to perform all light helicopter roles including training, troop transport, medical evacuation, search and rescue, maritime patrol, observation, armed escort and anti-armour. In addition, the AW109 LUH can also be armed with rocket pods, machine gun pods, pintled mounted machine guns, anti-tank and air-to-air missiles.

 

[STURM]

Not my intention to get off-topic but given that the current focus or area of concern is at sea, over the area disputed with China, shouldn't the priority be in getting dedicated naval helicopters, to be operated from PN vessels, rather than something like the A-109.

 

[colay]

Not my intention to get off-topic but given that the current focus or area of concern is at sea, over the area disputed with China, shouldn't the priority be in getting dedicated naval helicopters, to be operated from PN vessels, rather than something like the A-109.

It's only recently with the acquisition of the Hamilton-class Cutters and the impending arrival of the Maestrale-class Frigates that naval helos are becoming a consideration. In the meantime, the Muslim and Communist insurgencies are still festering and the new aircraft will boost the PAF's ability to deal with them.

I would hope the DoD prioritize the necessary funds to equip the new ships with the appropriate helos to maximize their full potential.

 

[ADMk2]

It's only recently with the acquisition of the Hamilton-class Cutters and the impending arrival of the Maestrale-class Frigates that naval helos are becoming a consideration. In the meantime, the Muslim and Communist insurgencies are still festering and the new aircraft will boost the PAF's ability to deal with them.

I would hope the DoD prioritize the necessary funds to equip the new ships with the appropriate helos to maximize their full potential.

I think the A-109 LUH model would be an excellent starting point. They are a very reliable helicopter, cheap to run, but with good performance and capabilities across a range of tasks.

They can be armed with a variety of options, from gun pods and rockets all the way up to Hellfire missiles.

They can be run on maritime vessels without too many issues, as demonstrated by Australia and more recently New Zealand:

RNZAF - First landing on HMNZS CANTERBURY for new Air Force helicopter

And come with a variety of sensor, avionics and EW fits as applicable. They don't have a fitted maritime radar or anti-submarine warfare kit, but they would make an excellent interim maritime utility helicopter and useful anti-fast attack craft / anti -light naval vessel helicopter, with the FLIR sensor, EW kit (ESM, radar warning receiver, missile approach warning system, chaff/flares etc) and Hellfire missile options added to them.

They'd also make an excellent lead in to the AW-159 Wildcat maritime helicopter too if the funds could be found for a high-end maritime warfare helicopter some day...

 

[colay]

I think the A-109 LUH model would be an excellent starting point. They are a very reliable helicopter, cheap to run, but with good performance and capabilities across a range of tasks.

They can be armed with a variety of options, from gun pods and rockets all the way up to Hellfire missiles.

They can be run on maritime vessels without too many issues, as demonstrated by Australia and more recently New Zealand:

RNZAF - First landing on HMNZS CANTERBURY for new Air Force helicopter

And come with a variety of sensor, avionics and EW fits as applicable. They don't have a fitted maritime radar or anti-submarine warfare kit, but they would make an excellent interim maritime utility helicopter and useful anti-fast attack craft / anti -light naval vessel helicopter, with the FLIR sensor, EW kit (ESM, radar warning receiver, missile approach warning system, chaff/flares etc) and Hellfire missile options added to them.

They'd also make an excellent lead in to the AW-159 Wildcat maritime helicopter too if the funds could be found for a high-end maritime warfare helicopter some day...

Perhaps for the US-supplied ships but for the Maestrales it would be so much simpler and likely cheaper to acquire the AB-212s which are already designed to integrate with the ships' systems. The Filipinos are already familiar with the basic aircraft and it comes with the multirole capabilities the PN needs. From Wiki:

Agusta-Bell AB 212ASW Anti-submarine warfare, anti-shipping version of the AB 212 helicopter, built under license in Italy by Agusta. Operated by the Italian Navy, Hellenic Navy and Islamic Republic of Iran Navy, Peru, Spain, Turkey, and Venezuela. [3]

The AB-212ASW is a Model 212 Twin Huey with a prominent radome above the cockpit. Early production had a dome-shaped radome, while later production had a flatter "drum" radome. A left side winch is used for dipping the Bendix ASQ-18 sonar. Other changes include structural reinforcement for a gross weight of 11,197 lbs (5080 kg), ECM, shipboard deck tie-down attachments and corrosion protection. Armament is two Mk 44 or Mk 46 torpedoes or two depth charges in the ASW role and four AS.12 air-to-surface wire-guided missiles for the anti-shipping role.