Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[funtz]

What directions do the people here see the PAF going in the 2010-2040 time frame.
(type? numbers? Replacing what platforms? etc. etc.)
Fifth Generation Fighters
J-10
F-16
JF-17 (200-250).
other possible combat aircraft acquisitions.

UAVs/UCAVs(or may be UAVs with some what decent combat loads)
Eyrie
Other AEW/AWAC platforms

etc etc.

 

[DefConGuru]

What directions do the people here see the PAF going in the 2010-2040 time frame.
(type? numbers? Replacing what platforms? etc. etc.)
Fifth Generation Fighters
J-10
F-16
JF-17 (200-250).
other possible combat aircraft acquisitions.

UAVs/UCAVs(or may be UAVs with some what decent combat loads)
Eyrie
Other AEW/AWAC platforms

etc etc.

The F-16 c/d block 52 would be considered 4.5 gen at most, same with the JF-17, though much is still unknown about the J-10's possible variants, it seems to be a 4-4.5 generation air craft as well, all of these aircraft being inferior to the Rafale (some would argue a dressed up F-16, I say otherwise) though with an exceptional pilot an F-16 could theoretically cook one for dinner. Which is why there is a lot of speculation to why top brass of the Pakistani air force would be resoundingly concluding they are acquring "5th generation air craft". It's still a big mystery to me...

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

What directions do the people here see the PAF going in the 2010-2040 time frame.
(type? numbers? Replacing what platforms? etc. etc.)
Fifth Generation Fighters
J-10
F-16
JF-17 (200-250).
other possible combat aircraft acquisitions.

UAVs/UCAVs(or may be UAVs with some what decent combat loads)
Eyrie
Other AEW/AWAC platforms

etc etc.

None of those are 5th gen bud, none of them are even 4.5th gen, they are all 4th (which is dictated by capability). I dont think the yanks will sell them F35 (if they could afford it), and the PAK FA is a LONG way off. As i see it, PAF's future should lay in J10, JF-17 and possibly J11B. The chinese platforms are cheap, capable enough there is little realistic chance of sino-pak relations deterierateing so you should have a secure supply chain well into the future.

Erieye is a great choice as an AEW&C platform, if you can afford/aquire it. E2D is annother possibility again if you can afford/aquire it. Perhaps you guys can wait for an export version of the chinese Y8.

 

[SABRE]

We don't know much about what PAF has on its list or will have on it in few years. But the following is kind of a public:

1. F-16C/D
2. F-16 A/B (MLUed)
3. JF-17
4. J-10
5. FC-20 (still a UFO)

JF-17 is going to replace Mirage-III & V & F-7 series. CAC is also in R&D to develop ground attack version of JF-17 which will replace the aging A-5/Q-5 Fantans.

FC-20 is something I have been trying to figure out for a long - at least since I came to hear about it. In the beginning several of us, including yours truly, did find an information about a Twin-engine (probably with TVC), super cursing ability, semi stealth, powerful radar, greater range etc J-10 but thats all that was there. We haven't seen any other credible information. I don't even know if thats the FC-20 or Super J-10 or what ever they are calling it now.

AFAIK FC-20 could be J-11B.

On the AWACS side:

1. ERIEYE

2. E2C Hawkeye (but operated by PN on its P3C Orion aircrafts)

3. Chinese Y-8/KJ-200 AWACS (MoU was signed with possible ToT, however we still don't know if the AWACS agreed upoin is KJ-200. But since it is rumored to be the one laid down for PAF in 1996 thats why we are pointing to it)



* IL-78 are also being purchased as air-2-air refuel tankers. (made public by ACM)


About the stealth program. China is going with 2 J-XX programs (J-13 & J-14) & FC-20 is just a stop gap. There is a possibility of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) pitching in with the CAC's project (I don't know if CAC is working on J-13 or J-14). Even if Pakistan does not capture the joint venture I am sure J-XX is the stealth aircraft PAF will have - most probably from CAC.

Not to forget that PAC engineers are educated from western countries & have worked on several western aircrafts & their avionics. Plus the experience from manufacturing/assembling western avionics within Pakistan when ToT is received. These engineers can be handy.


As for other western aircrafts, I guess one has to wait & see how J-XX program goes.

 

[Aussie Digger]

We don't know much about what PAF has on its list or will have on it in few years. But the following is kind of a public:

1. F-16C/D
2. F-16 A/B (MLUed)
3. JF-17
4. J-10
5. FC-20 (still a UFO)

JF-17 is going to replace Mirage-III & V & F-7 series. CAC is also in R&D to develop ground attack version of JF-17 which will replace the aging A-5/Q-5 Fantans.

FC-20 is something I have been trying to figure out for a long - at least since I came to hear about it. In the beginning several of us, including yours truly, did find an information about a Twin-engine (probably with TVC), super cursing ability, semi stealth, powerful radar, greater range etc J-10 but thats all that was there. We haven't seen any other credible information. I don't even know if thats the FC-20 or Super J-10 or what ever they are calling it now.

AFAIK FC-20 could be J-11B.

On the AWACS side:

1. ERIEYE

2. E2C Hawkeye (but operated by PN on its P3C Orion aircrafts)

3. Chinese Y-8/KJ-200 AWACS (MoU was signed with possible ToT, however we still don't know if the AWACS agreed upoin is KJ-200. But since it is rumored to be the one laid down for PAF in 1996 thats why we are pointing to it)



* IL-78 are also being purchased as air-2-air refuel tankers. (made public by ACM)


About the stealth program. China is going with 2 J-XX programs (J-13 & J-14) & FC-20 is just a stop gap. There is a possibility of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) pitching in with the CAC's project (I don't know if CAC is working on J-13 or J-14). Even if Pakistan does not capture the joint venture I am sure J-XX is the stealth aircraft PAF will have - most probably from CAC.

Not to forget that PAC engineers are educated from western countries & have worked on several western aircrafts & their avionics. Plus the experience from manufacturing/assembling western avionics within Pakistan when ToT is received. These engineers can be handy.


As for other western aircrafts, I guess one has to wait & see how J-XX program goes.

Don't forget Pakistan Navy as ordered P-3C Orion AWACS variants as well...

4x types of AWACS in the one Country, sounds a bit ridiculous to me...

 

[DefConGuru]

Don't forget Pakistan Navy as ordered P-3C Orion AWACS variants as well...

4x types of AWACS in the one Country, sounds a bit ridiculous to me...

Will they be operating the E2C hawkeye as well?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Will they be operating the E2C hawkeye as well?

According to Sabre's post above my previous one they will...

 

[DefConGuru]

Oh sorry, must have glanced over that :sniper . In regard to Sabre, thanks for clearing that up, I was confused about the FC-20 and thought it would be another JF-17 type venture. Also, you correctly point out that the FC-20 is a stop gap until the Materialization of the JXX type 13 and 14 come at hand, but I seriously hope the J-11B will not be the candidate, because theoretically it is a Sino version SU27. Would this be enough for the PAF to counter the IAF's SU30MKI's that are on the runways now? It's time Pakistan invited the Dassault boys back in no?

 

[funtz]

None of those are 5th gen bud, none of them are even 4.5th gen, they are all 4th (which is dictated by capability). I dont think the yanks will sell them F35 (if they could afford it), and the PAK FA is a LONG way off. As i see it, PAF's future should lay in J10, JF-17 and possibly J11B. The chinese platforms are cheap, capable enough there is little realistic chance of sino-pak relations deterierateing so you should have a secure supply chain well into the future.

Erieye is a great choice as an AEW&C platform, if you can afford/aquire it. E2D is annother possibility again if you can afford/aquire it. Perhaps you guys can wait for an export version of the chinese Y8.

NA I was not trying to pass them off as fifth generation fighters.

what i was inquiring was the type of fifth generation fighters that PAF might go for.

Should have edited the post better, i guess, it was supposed to be something like
- fifth generation fighters.(types, numbers, replacing).
- J-10s (types, numbers, replacing).
- F16s (types, numbers, replacing).
- JF-17 (types, numbers, replacing)
etc. etc.

Anyways:

Thanks for all the response.

 

[SABRE]

Don't forget Pakistan Navy as ordered P-3C Orion AWACS variants as well...

4x types of AWACS in the one Country, sounds a bit ridiculous to me...

I have mentioned it. Its E2C radar which would be placed on P3C Orion.

Its 3 variants of AWACS. Couple of them might go to Strategic Forces. Which I am guessing would most probably be Chinese. Counting on the 'paranoia' strategic forces wont like to fly Wester AWACS directly over the nuclear & other sensitive facilities. I may be wrong though.

 

[SABRE]

but I seriously hope the J-11B will not be the candidate, because theoretically it is a Sino version SU27.

Would this be enough for the PAF to counter the IAF's SU30MKI's that are on the runways now? It's time Pakistan invited the Dassault boys back in no?

& why should J-11B/Su-27 not be the candidate? PAF buys aircrafts & PAC upgrades/modernizes/modifies those aircrafts according to PAF requirements. So PAF can go for Chinese J-11B & modify them with the western avionics. Seems like suitable to counter Su-30MKI.

However, at this moment it seems like J-10, FC-20 & F-16 in the line to counter Su-30MKI. Plus JF-17 has been equipped with several electronic systems as to neutralize Su-30MKI at some levels. Since I am not much of a technology buff person I cant really shed more light on it.

In simple as I always say; PAF should have a good AWACS, an F-16 & a good BVRAAM. Fire & Forget.

 

[tphuang]

& why should J-11B/Su-27 not be the candidate? PAF buys aircrafts & PAC upgrades/modernizes/modifies those aircrafts according to PAF requirements. So PAF can go for Chinese J-11B & modify them with the western avionics. Seems like suitable to counter Su-30MKI.

However, at this moment it seems like J-10, FC-20 & F-16 in the line to counter Su-30MKI. Plus JF-17 has been equipped with several electronic systems as to neutralize Su-30MKI at some levels. Since I am not much of a technology buff person I cant really shed more light on it.

In simple as I always say; PAF should have a good AWACS, an F-16 & a good BVRAAM. Fire & Forget.

As I said before, J-11B is not being offered to PAF right now. And in every way, having J-11B does not make sense for PAF.

And also, there is only 1 5th generation project on tap, but there is also a stealth A2A UCAV being worked on. I'm not sure what will be offered to PAF when the time comes though.

 

[SABRE]

As I said before, J-11B is not being offered to PAF right now. And in every way, having J-11B does not make sense for PAF.

And also, there is only 1 5th generation project on tap, but there is also a stealth A2A UCAV being worked on. I'm not sure what will be offered to PAF when the time comes though.

Well I didn't say anything about PAF buying J-11B. I was just asking the quoted person why he thinks J-11B should not be the candidate. But appose to your post I do see a place for something like J-11B in PAF. After all PAF was looking into Su-27 in mid 1990s (also the MiG-29).

 

[DefConGuru]

Any word if Z-10 attack heli would be finding its way to pakistan?

 

[DefConGuru]

Or would the Turkish version of the Mangusta? Heard of heli replacements and procurements to happen around 2010.

 

[SABRE]

Or would the Turkish version of the Mangusta? Heard of heli replacements and procurements to happen around 2010.

Well its 2008. 2 more years to go in 2010.

The last I heard was that Italian A/T-129 Attack helicopters were under consideration. After that nothing - no new news on either this or any thing else.

 

[tphuang]

Well I didn't say anything about PAF buying J-11B. I was just asking the quoted person why he thinks J-11B should not be the candidate. But appose to your post I do see a place for something like J-11B in PAF. After all PAF was looking into Su-27 in mid 1990s (also the MiG-29).

Well, let me rephrase that, what can flankers do that an equally capable A2A platform, but a more economical and shorter legged single engined fighter can't do for PAF?

 

[BilalK]

Well, let me rephrase that, what can flankers do that an equally capable A2A platform, but a more economical and shorter legged single engined fighter can't do for PAF?

Well...these are my 2 cents, but;

What if the PAF required longer-ranged aircraft for more strike-oriented and maritime-related missions? Presently there is only 1 squadron of Block-52+ in the pipeline, and that would be the best strike-fighter PAF will have if and when it enters service. However the lack of numbers, the straining relations with U.S., IN-threat and possible desire to expand strike could open the doors for something such as J-11B. Plus compared to American/European fighters and grandpa Mirages, the J-11B does give PAF the flexibility to utilize its LACMs and glide-bomb inventory...on top of a fairly robust AShW.

Though I agree with you, J-11B is probably not on offer...but times do change, so 2010 onwards could be different.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Well...these are my 2 cents, but;

What if the PAF required longer-ranged aircraft for more strike-oriented and maritime-related missions? Presently there is only 1 squadron of Block-52+ in the pipeline, and that would be the best strike-fighter PAF will have if and when it enters service. However the lack of numbers, the straining relations with U.S., IN-threat and possible desire to expand strike could open the doors for something such as J-11B. Plus compared to American/European fighters and grandpa Mirages, the J-11B does give PAF the flexibility to utilize its LACMs and glide-bomb inventory...on top of a fairly robust AShW.

Though I agree with you, J-11B is probably not on offer...but times do change, so 2010 onwards could be different.

I could have misunderstood Pakistan's acquisition plans, but isn't PAF planning to have a total of 96x F-16 fighters in-service all upgraded to a Block 52+ standard, either through new build fighters or via MLU'd earlier block fighters?

On top of which it still has planned to introduce JF-17 in large numbers plus a newer generation "advanced" fighter to complement F-16 and JF-17?

 

[tphuang]

Well...these are my 2 cents, but;

What if the PAF required longer-ranged aircraft for more strike-oriented and maritime-related missions? Presently there is only 1 squadron of Block-52+ in the pipeline, and that would be the best strike-fighter PAF will have if and when it enters service. However the lack of numbers, the straining relations with U.S., IN-threat and possible desire to expand strike could open the doors for something such as J-11B. Plus compared to American/European fighters and grandpa Mirages, the J-11B does give PAF the flexibility to utilize its LACMs and glide-bomb inventory...on top of a fairly robust AShW.

Though I agree with you, J-11B is probably not on offer...but times do change, so 2010 onwards could be different.

yeah, I've thought about that. I'm not sure you'd want J-11B to be launching LACMs. For example, in PLAAF, that role is given to H-6K. It depends on the needs I guess. And PAF seems to have far greater need for air defense than strike missions.