Crusader2000
Banned Member
I wonder if Pakistan will consider adding a Western Radar to the J-10???
Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
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I think if funds permit, the PAF will seek to build the Block-52+ fleet to its originally conceived 55-75 figure (before the 2005 earthquake). They're investing a lot resources into these F-16s, and they'll be in service (if they're delivered) for a very long time. I don't think a single squadron serving for decades is on the cards. Also consider that LM's production may be extended further with Moroccan, Egyptian, etc orders.
I recall a JDW article saying that PAF may order another 33 Block-52+, which I assume would fall beyond the current 2006-contract for 36. It's an excellent force-multiplier, and with 45 (or 59) MLUs, the Erieye and IFR-aircraft (ex. A-310 MRTT or KC-135), gives PAF an excellent capability in this limited set. Beyond this set is the development of JF-17, FC-20, ZDK03 AEW&CS and IL-78.
I recall a JDW article saying that PAF may order another 33 Block-52+, which I assume would fall beyond the current 2006-contract for 36. It's an excellent force-multiplier, and with 45 (or 59) MLUs, the Erieye and IFR-aircraft (ex. A-310 MRTT or KC-135), gives PAF an excellent capability in this limited set. Beyond this set is the development of JF-17, FC-20, ZDK03 AEW&CS and IL-78.
This Is not what has been reported in any non PAK newspaper. so i guess you got your information from a PAK source. Why would Swedish government go public with their verdict? and say we won't allow an export to pakistan? and i believe SAAB rather wanted to take the shot in India, So SAAB toke it quite well. but please if you've a link that proves me wrong and can support your claims i will admitt the swedish governemnt lied.
If J-10 has a long way to go to reach the level of Block 52, then PLAAF should just give up and not even try anymore. It's amazing the amount of skepticism toward this plane.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
The J-10 as an airframe is the ~ equal of the F-16. So, its has more to do with the Avionics and Weapons.
I wonder if Pakistan plans on adding Western Systems to the J-10 in any meaningful way???
Nobody said that. What's your opinion of the J-10's capabilities? I don't expect you believe it's at the level of a Block 52 either, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about the aircraft's capabilities in and of itself.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
SURB
Member
They say that fc20 have got AESA radar ,then it will make a good comparison against F16 BLOCK 52 PAF getting next year,i would say that the long delay before finalizing the deal for j10 would be because of it's upgadation programme towards j10b. 
Here is the source which compares both of them further.
The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy
Here is the source which compares both of them further. The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy
good_old_viper
New Member
My information is first hand from PAF officers. During the 90s, Gripen was being considered as a future mainstay fighter before JF-17 was finalized. Negotiations had also gone in this direction and they were even offering ToT. And the above mentioned reasons were responsible for going to China.
I believe there is also a PAF chief interview floating around the net that suggests the same. You may need to search around a bit.
As for Sweden govt. saying they won't allow export to pakistan, frankly I am not well aware of it apart from hearing it once on some internet board. But for them to allow or disallow, there has to be a formal request by PAF. Ever since PAF went for JF-17, they completely abandoned the idea of Gripen and that's like 10yrs ago. MIrage 2000 was a contender before sanctions eased out and pAF went for new F-16s and FC-20s. If the Swedish govt. said that, it probably would have been to make the SAAB bid stronger for the MMRCA contest by india since SAAB is selling the Erieye to Pakistan.
I believe its more because no open information is available unlike most western fighters which have some information on their websites, much publicity and quite a few countries operate the planes so have different views from different operators. For chinese planes, its just what informal chinese websites tell us which can be sometimes hard to believe.
We know little with certainty about the J-10 but it seems the current J-10 lag behind the blk 52. PAF considers that the blk 52 will be its most advanced fighter. PAF chief has also said they have asked CAC for improvements on the J-10 in various areas particularly avionics (INS, GPS,etc) and weapons. In one AFM interview, he also said we want a radar of our choice on the FC-20 which suggests they are not happy with the current or promised one.
FC-20 has a long way to go (2014). At this stage only 'technical negotiations were nearing completion". At this stage and from information available from PAF, I would say it falls short of the blk-52 in various aspects.
NB: Before someone jumps and say the exported J-10 are "downgraded" and such, we are talking about the J-10 PAF will get not what PLAAF has. Also, my views are regarding the J-10 not the J-10b.
Lots of that is mere speculation taken from Pakdef and Keypublishing where the authors hang around.They say that fc20 have got AESA radar ,then it will make a good comparison against F16 BLOCK 52 PAF getting next year,i would say that the long delay before finalizing the deal for j10 would be because of it's upgadation programme towards j10b.
The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy
can some body know about PAF C-12 Huron
I NEED THE PIX OF C-12 IN PAF COLOUR
THERE IS 1 C-12 Huron IN PAF AS A LIGHT TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT.
List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ANY IMAGE OR INFO ABOUT PAF C-12 PLZ POST IT TO FORUM
THNX
I NEED THE PIX OF C-12 IN PAF COLOUR
THERE IS 1 C-12 Huron IN PAF AS A LIGHT TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT.
List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ANY IMAGE OR INFO ABOUT PAF C-12 PLZ POST IT TO FORUM
THNX
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I don't doubt it's a good plane, they've employed enough "modern design" ideas in it's construction so it must be, right? All I meant is that it has yet to demonstrate the operational capability that the F-16 has been demonstrating for more than 20 years.
Why would one expect it to? It has barely entered service. I could equally say the same about the Rafale or Typhoon, however the topic was about the J-10.
This is, btw the first comment I've ever made about my opinion of the J-10. I hardly think it overly negative...
it's designed to have better flight performance.
any talk about Pakistan plans with J-10 is way too premature, basically just brought up by fanboys to try to add what they think is fancy avionics/weapons to make themselves feel better about FC-20 purchase.
depends what you ask for. In terms of A2G capabilities, it's still getting there. It doesn't really support the ground strike package that a modern multi-role fighter jet would support.
In terms of A2A, this is where I expect it to be better. J-10 has consistently outperformed all variants of flankers in PLAAF in A2A combats. It could be a matter where PLAAF really doesn't know how to use flankers correctly, but I just don't see F-16 overmatching flankers the way J-10 has been able to.
If you remember a couple of years ago, PAF chief at that time said that J-10 was picked ahead of Gripen and F-16 for its next generation requirements. Considering what PAF will be facing at that time, I hardly think that getting something less than block 52 would do PAF any good.
Again, as I said before. The contract hasn't been finalized by any imagination. They are still trying to figure out what they want. We don't know exactly what CAC is proposing and what PAF is looking for. And make a note that CAC is not in charge of the avionics, they have separate firm/institutes for that. Considering that FC-20 is being prepared to join for the middle of the next decade, it should be no surprise that PAF wants something better than what J-10 has right now. And I'd imagine a lot of stuff that they are putting on J-10B like built-in EO tracker, wide-angle holographic HUD, ECM "pylons", AESA radar and the new generation MAWs would be on the table for FC-20. CAC really did a lot of work in trying to fit as more powerful EW systems, more powerful radar, passive tracker and better MMI into J-10B. I have no way of confirming some of the more interior design, but I read that it's controlled by a much more advanced software network using more faster computer connected by fiber optic wires allowing for faster processing of data.
the comment wasn't directed just at you, it's a general statement. I think I also interpreted having along way to go to prove equivalent to has a long way to go to match.
good_old_viper
New Member
True, its way too early to speculate anything. I think the 'rumors' came from an interview to AFM where PAF said they would like a radar of western origin or their own choice. But I guess that was when the J-10 were bought in 2009...because that was the initial reports we had.
But the shifting of date was announced during the official ceremony of JF-17 assembly line at PAC. With the new date, I doubt there will be anything non-Chinese on that aircraft.
I think we all agree that it is too premature to talk anything about the FC-20 now.
That's new to me...I never heard such a statement.
As I said before, the J-10 was supposed to be inducted in 2009 and I do not think the PAF consider ' the current J-10 ' to be superior to blk 52 or Gripen NG or Rafale and EF. There are various theories like Russian engine (since chinese one isn't mature yet) prevented the sale, and that the J-10 deadline of 2009 was a pressure on US to get F-16s, the systems were not mature enough, etc.
Western aircrafts lost out because of political/financial reasons not on performance. Another reason was for continued support in times of difficulty (sanctions).
Here's from AFM Sept '08 issue from interview of PAF Chief Tanvir Mehmood
"3) FC-20 order should be confirmed in next 12 months or so, whilst final configuration is worked out. Current J-10 technology is not upto PAF requirements and as the platform matures, PAF hopes to include western equipment in the J-10, thereby signifying a different version from PLAAF J-10, which will be known as FC-20 in PAF service. FC-20 will not be required to have any conformal fuel tanks, as it has sufficient internal fuel capacity as well as AAR by Il-78 Midas tankers. Although AESA radar would be nice to have, there is no confirmation if this will be made available to PAF. (persumably refers to non-Chinese suppliers willingness to supply)".
Note again that all this is related to J-10s that were supposed to be bought in 2009-10. With the extension in time frame, any change is possible.
Sorry if my point went wrong since I mentioned PAF J-10s, I meant current J-10s not J10b or FC-20.
Do you really thing current J-10 (not J-10b) are superior to F-16 blk 52 in terms of radar, avionics, ECM, weapons?
Regarding the J-10 outperforming the Flanker, do you know anything about the purpose or rules of the exercises? It's difficult to know what the outcome indicates without knowing what the intent was. Not trashing the J-10 by any means, more power to it if it's been holding its own.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I wouldn't expect there to be a huge difference avionics- and weapon-wise between the Flanker and the J-10 (and again I could be wrong, I'm only going on the basis of their common technology base), and these are the areas in which I'd expect to see the most differences between the J-10 and the F-16, so comparing the two capabilities is difficult without knowing more. I'm more interested however in the role the J-10 is filling in PLAAF doctrine. Are they in line for full air to ground capability (PGM delivery etc)?
It is good to know the J-10s are performing - as I said above I'm not interested in badmouthing the plane, and platform vs platform comparisons are a bit overrated in my book. Cheers for the info.
I really can't understnad all the hype round J-10 when did this platform become anything more than just avarage? i have yet to see anything that impress me. and Tphuang, your sources of informtion sounds quite biased.
PS.
I would love to see an independet link where J-10 out performs the Flanker family.
PS.
I would love to see an independet link where J-10 out performs the Flanker family.
originally, J-10 first had to perform against flankers because PLAAF wasn't sure about how good the plane was, so they wanted to test it out against flankers. It was in fact in danger of getting axed or at least thrown to the back burners. But it performed above all expectations (I think the original tests were all dogfights). Later on, they tried more BVR engagements and J-10 won out due to the superior avionics and BVR missiles.Regarding the J-10 outperforming the Flanker, do you know anything about the purpose or rules of the exercises? It's difficult to know what the outcome indicates without knowing what the intent was. Not trashing the J-10 by any means, more power to it if it's been holding its own.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I wouldn't expect there to be a huge difference avionics- and weapon-wise between the Flanker and the J-10 (and again I could be wrong, I'm only going on the basis of their common technology base), and these are the areas in which I'd expect to see the most differences between the J-10 and the F-16, so comparing the two capabilities is difficult without knowing more. I'm more interested however in the role the J-10 is filling in PLAAF doctrine. Are they in line for full air to ground capability (PGM delivery etc)?
It is good to know the J-10s are performing - as I said above I'm not interested in badmouthing the plane, and platform vs platform comparisons are a bit overrated in my book. Cheers for the info.
J-10 is currently PLAAF's front-line air superiority fighter. They can fire some A2G munitions like LGBs and dumb bombs and even rockets (yeah, I know), but that's not its main purpose.
I don't know what you would call independent link, but there were several articles from PLA daily and AVIC1 when J-10 first got unveiled on this topic. One of the articles about 2 J-10 taking down 4 flankers without suffering any loss was also mentioned on Kanwa. Before that, there was also one prominent article on a Chinese military magazine.
It was on JDW article. I have a picture of it. You can probably find it on pakdef, it came out when the J-10 to Pakistan news first started.
first, let's not compare block 52 to rafale/ef, it really is in a level below imo. J-10 at current is comparable to block 52/gripen. J-10 inducting to PAF in 2009 is just not possible, they didn't even have any engine at that time to produce J-10s for themselves. Any sources stating that is just bad imo.
SURB
Member
Local media in Pakistan is:coffee reporting that chief of air staff will visit China soon on occasion of PLAAF 60th anniversary, he has been officially invited to see the performance of various planes.When this event is going to be held , i don't know ,but surely PAF will closely monitor how J10 performs.
Reference:
http://aaj.tv/news/National/151471_4detail.html
Reference:
http://aaj.tv/news/National/151471_4detail.html
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He is already in China and so are Air Chiefs from 29 other countries.Local media in Pakistan is:coffee reporting that chief of air staff will visit China soon on occasion of PLAAF exercise,he has been officially invited to see the performance of various planes.When these exercises are going to be held ,i don't know ,but surely PAF will monitor closely how J10 performs against Flanker.