PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[vrus]

I read of this 5th Generation Fighter that Russia is making. It is called the Su-47. They say it is to compete with the American F-35 JSF ???
I heard India signed a deal to co-operate in this project. You guys heard any more on this ?

Here's the link :-

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/

Give me your comments.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Su-47 is a technology demonstrator. It wont get the status of a fighter so its not going to be in any AirForce neither Russia nor IAF.

Russia & India agreed on the joint development of PAK-FA fighter which is derived from the technology of Su-47 but unlike Su-47 its going to have swept forward wings. Su-47 is a 5th Gen Tech Demon & PAK-FA is the future 5th Gen fighter.

But like J-XX its capabilities lie only near JSF-35 not F-22 Raptor. It may be some where near EF-2000. According to China J-XX is going to be most probably nearer to Ef-2000 but may lack the super manuverbility.

 

[adsH]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Forward Swept wing Design was discarded. apparently neither the US nor the russians found it feasible. Where is GF these days he knows more about the forward swept wing AC's.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Both Swept forward & swing wing AirCrafts pose some problems, thats why all swept forward winged Tech Demons have been rejected & Swing wing ACs ae being retired.

Swing Wing ACs: F-14 TomCat, B-1 Lancer, MiG-27, TU-160

Also the switch blade program is highly unlikely to go into physical production. It will always remain on paper.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

You should ask GF or highsea on why swept forward wing ACs & Swing Wing ACs are being denied.

 

[adsH]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

You should ask GF or highsea on why swept forward wing ACs & Swing Wing ACs are being denied.

i was refering to the Forward Swept wing.

and i think we missed the Tornados in the list its Swing design too, has high maintenance requirements. thats probably why the desing is being fased out. but we've got another Decade worth of lifetime on our Tornados.. as soon as you see tornados being fazed out you'd know the FOAS is coming.

 

[highsea]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

FSWs have manouverability advantages at low-to-transonic speeds, but suffer at supersonic speeds due to the wingtips encroaching on, or penetrating, the shock wave. They also have very high stresses at the wing roots due to twisting forces, aeroelasticity problems from bending forces at the wingtips, lousy RCS beam profiles, and it is much more difficult to locate underwing stores, because you get very tail-heavy, very fast.

At high speeds and AOAs, when the wingtip starts to bend up, the problems compound rapidly. The air catches under the tip, increasing its angle of attack and therefore its lift. The other wing sees a similar increase in lift, causing the tips to develop a bit more wash in. This adds to the bending force on each wing, causing it to bend up and wash in even more. This causes a further increase in lift, which causes additional bending, which causes additional lift, etc, until the wing spars eventually have enough and you experience structural failure.

There are things that can be done to overcome some of these problems. The wing can be built extremely stiff with composite materials, and can be designed to wash out as it bends upwards, but the more sweep you use, the heavier the wing must be, and designing washout with different materials is very complex. For example, the X-29 used titanium forward spars (stiff), aluminum after spars (flexible), and carbon fiber skins with oriented grains that were designed to twist as they bent up.

FSWs look neat, but they are just not very practical. As has been mentioned, the SU-47 was a TD, like the X-29. It's not really known how effectively the Russians addressed the issues inherent to FSWs, but it would not be a cheap AC to build, even if the disadvantages were overcome.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

A big jump form SU-37 to SU-47 where are the others?????

 

[SABRE]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

FSWs have manouverability advantages at low-to-transonic speeds, but suffer at supersonic speeds due to the wingtips encroaching on, or penetrating, the shock wave. They also have very high stresses at the wing roots due to twisting forces, aeroelasticity problems from bending forces at the wingtips, lousy RCS beam profiles, and it is much more difficult to locate underwing stores, because you get very tail-heavy, very fast.

At high speeds and AOAs, when the wingtip starts to bend up, the problems compound rapidly. The air catches under the tip, increasing its angle of attack and therefore its lift. The other wing sees a similar increase in lift, causing the tips to develop a bit more wash in. This adds to the bending force on each wing, causing it to bend up and wash in even more. This causes a further increase in lift, which causes additional bending, which causes additional lift, etc, until the wing spars eventually have enough and you experience structural failure.

There are things that can be done to overcome some of these problems. The wing can be built extremely stiff with composite materials, and can be designed to wash out as it bends upwards, but the more sweep you use, the heavier the wing must be, and designing washout with different materials is very complex. For example, the X-29 used titanium forward spars (stiff), aluminum after spars (flexible), and carbon fiber skins with oriented grains that were designed to twist as they bent up.

FSWs look neat, but they are just not very practical. As has been mentioned, the SU-47 was a TD, like the X-29. It's not really known how effectively the Russians addressed the issues inherent to FSWs, but it would not be a cheap AC to build, even if the disadvantages were overcome.

Hmmm...considering that F-22 & JSF-35 are the last manned AirCrafts we probably wont see a swept forward wined fighter jet. Even Russia has moved away.

Anyways highsea what about the swing wing aircrafts like F-14 TomCat, MiG-27, B-1 Lancer, Tornedoes, Tu-160 & the paper aircraft Switch Blade. What problems they pose (U told me once but I forgot & lot that PM, tell again please )

 

[highsea]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

...what about the swing wing aircrafts like F-14 TomCat, MiG-27, B-1 Lancer, Tornedoes, Tu-160 & the paper aircraft Switch Blade. What problems they pose (U told me once but I forgot & lot that PM, tell again please )

Swing wing designs have been pretty much abandoned also, no new design work has been done in the last 20 years or so. The disadvantages seem to outweigh the advantages here also. The nice thing about them is that you can vary the wing to suit the mission- sweep them back for high speed low altitude strikes, and extend them for long distance and high-altitude cruising.

But they are very expensive to operate, and mechanically complex. The pivot points wear and have to be constantly maintained, they need heavy and complicated gearboxes to operate the pivot mechanism. They need additional flaps and control surfaces, pivoting pylons for underwing stores (to keep munitions aligned to the airstream), and seals at the pivot point to maintain a clean aerodynamic surface.

The extra weight of all the additional mechanicals means you can carry less fuel and weapons, so you tend to rely more on AAR. The center box has to be built extra heavy to handle the additional stresses and mechanicals of the swing wing hardware, and this is the most difficult section of the airframe to maintain.

So while variable geometry wings work, they are very expensive for what you get in return- the F-14 was the most expensive interceptor the US ever operated, and takes twice as many hours to service (per hour of flight) than the F/A-18. The B-1B already has a shorter practical service life than was originally planned, with 30 of the 93 already taken out of service (due to the cost, not the AC wearing out). But it will be ironic if the USAF B-52's outlive the B-1B, and that's a very real possibility.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !


PAK FA - [size=-1]http://(source blocked by DT?)[/size]

In early 2002 Sukhoi was chosen as prime contractor for the planned Russian fifth-generation fighter is called the PAK FA [ Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi - Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces]. This intermediate class twin-engined fighter will be larger than a MiG-29 and smaller than a Su-27. The new fighter is intended to be about the same size as the US F-35 JSF, with a primary air superiority mission and ground attack and reconnaissance being secondary missions. The aircraft will feature a long combat radius, supersonic cruise speed, low radar cross section, supermaneuverability, and the ability to make short takeoffs and landings. In accordance with the technical requirements, the PAK FA will have a normal takeoff weight of 20 tons, which is close to the average normal takeoff weight of the two American airplanes, the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons). The new fighter (a medium version) will have a traditional wing form, though the experience gathered as a result of Berkut's test flights will be taken in consideration when designing the fighter. It is supposed that it will be created using the Stealth technology, and equipped with two AL-41F engines by the Saturn scientific and industrial enterprise, a radar system with an active phased array (to all appearances, it will be produced by the Fazatron-NIIR corporation), and high-precision weapons.

The government commission decided on 26 April 2002 to choose the Sukhoi holding company as the head company to develop and produce the fighter of the fifth generation. The prototype of the PAK FA would take-off in 2006 and that in 2010 the aircraft would be ready for series production. The first deliveries, both for Russian armed forces and for export, would be possible in 2011-12.

The new airplane is being proposed to be brought from the concept design to a prototype series in less than 9 years. Historically, fourth and fifth generation fighters have not been created in less than 15 years. The Russian government has promised to allocate 1.5 billion dollars for the PAK FA through 2010. But the Russian Air Force is receiving less than 200 million dollars a year during this period, and will spend it primarily on other needs.

The prices and sources of funding will determine the destiny of the whole program. To date officials agree that the program will cost $1.5 billion. However, $1.5 billion is the sum needed for creating a new generation of avionics for the fighter (considering the fact that pre-production models of the phased array have already been produced, and will soon be tested). Completion of the AL-41F engine (present readiness is 30 percent) will require, in the opinion of the boss of Rosaviakosmos, 600 - 800 million dollars. Saturn said that launching of production of the AL-41F engine would take $150 million. An improved version of the AL-31F will be used on the aircraft originally (though it is not clear how these heavy motors are reconciled with the concept of a 20-ton fighter). The upgrade of these engines will require expenditures of 1.2-1.5 billion dollars. And finally, designers will have to spend several hundred millions of dollars on creating a new airframe.

State financing will cover not more than 20-22 percent of the cost of the development of the PAK FA. It will thus be necessary to draw extrabudgetary sources of funding, lending the development program a principle of openness for international cooperation. In the opinion of experts, export income, if it is taken from the plants, can provide not more than 1 billion dollars. It is maintained that the insufficient amounts can be received from foreign partners.

The plane's development will be conducted with a view of achieving a reasonable compromise between its cost and combat efficiency, and take into account the market demand. exports sales of the new warplane must reach 500 to 600 fighters at a price of $35 to $40 million each to make production of the new aircraft profitable.

According to some reports, India and Russia have agreed to jointly develop this fifth-generation fighter, under a scheduled with entery into service in 2009. This would be the first such joint development venture between the two countries.

There is little chance that Russia will have fifth-generation pursuit planes of its own. Development and construction of a fifth-generation fighter would require about $20 billion dollars, and as of early 2004 it was unlikely that the government will appropriate financing of this scale. "The problem is that economic and military authorities in this country live in parallel spaces and have no common approach to problems," according to Deputy Director of the analytical department of the Political and Military Analysis Institute Alexander Khramchikhin.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

It is amazing that every new 5th Gen fighter being planned or produce is in competence with JSF-35 not F-22, including J-XX & PAK-FA. EF-2000 seems to be in another league but still doesnt measure upto F-22 Raptor. Seems like world is simply giving away the advantage to Raptors.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Would this aircraft able to land vertically and rotate 360 degree while staying still in air and could fire a missile from still position and could decrease its speed quickly by doing cobra manuver can any one answer all these I think JSF can do much which i have written

 

[Awang se]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Would this aircraft able to land vertically and rotate 360 degree while staying still in air and could fire a missile from still position and could decrease its speed quickly by doing cobra manuver can any one answer all these I think JSF can do much which i have written

When firing from static position, the missile might need a special booster and the range of the missile will be significantly decrease since part of AA missile range depend on the speed of the launching platform.

 

[rafale_2k5]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Plus the JSF is not designed to replicate an Apache , it was basically made in 3 variants to provide commonality in logistics and reduce production costs !!!!! thats why the plane presents a whole spectrum of different challenges n marine corps version is the hardest nut to crack since requires VSTOL/ VTOL capability!!!!! plus since the topic is russias 5th gen fighter this baby would definitely require a lot of exprnditure since russia knows no sooner the US starts turnin out JSFs , its sales of SUs are gona start dwindling, the other route could be to develop as radar powerful enough which can beat JSF stealth abilities and force it to fight like a conventional fighter could also be considered a possible route since Russians despite having economic difficulties r not gonna sleep oer the project as they know how to keep the stakes up to match anythin the US manufactures , history is tesimony to it!!!! they r also working on plasma stealth which could also be incorporated into the future versions
One more thing since India has signed a deal 4 190 MKIs i would only say that they might have reached an understanding 4 incorporating stealth like fetures in their MKIs thru Plasma stealth or with a much more power radar based on passive detection technologies like VERA etc....

 

[hot222]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I believe that if Russia can economically afford the developement to the production, they are going to make it happened. Do not forget that they have put vector thrusting on production for years when US or Europe haven't yet. Well US in on the way with F-22 and F-35.

 

[highsea]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

...Do not forget that they have put vector thrusting on production for years when US or Europe haven't yet. Well US in on the way with F-22 and F-35.

I don't think Russia has any TVC AC in service do they? AFAIK, only the SU-30MKI has a production Russian TVC, everything else has been tech demonstrators (MiG-29OVT, etc), there are no SU-37 squadrons, and no orders for Sukhoi for the AC. The RD-133 is still in testing.

The US has experimented with TVC for many years also, F-15 ACTIVE, F-16 MATV, and F-18 HARV. I won't mention the 50+ F/A-22's that are already in service...

rafale_2k5- "Plasma Stealth" is a non-starter, much more hype than reality. The best they have come up with in a functional system is a screen for the radar antenna that blinds the operator when it is in use. Not much of a tactical advantage, imo.

Vera is a passive listening system, not a radar, and it is not an aircraft system- it requires multiple ground stations and some pretty heavy duty computing. It doesn't work when it's moving. In ATC applications, it requires transponders on the AC being monitored.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I believe that if Russia can economically afford the developement to the production, they are going to make it happened. Do not forget that they have put vector thrusting on production for years when US or Europe haven't yet. Well US in on the way with F-22 and F-35.

why would you bother. TVC on aircraft is of minimal benefit except for the airshow where your average ignorant plane watcher can go "ooh and aaaah"

think about it. manned plane 9G with or without TVC. missile 30G, with TVC missiles it can go as high as 45G.

on a dribbled volley shot of missiles at a TVC equiped plane you can guess who I'm going to bet my money on making it home. and it aint the plane.

and please don't quote the 99 paper on the advantages of the mongoose manouvre, that got written off as an airshow stunt years ago. the tactics to defeat that were established within 12 months.

$45m for a TVC manned plane - or $1m for a TVC missile. guess what gets my pick?

 

[adsH]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

and please don't quote the 99 paper on the advantages of the mongoose manouvre, that got written off as an airshow stunt years ago. the tactics to defeat that were established within 12 months.

my pick?

YEah Stay away from Radar Range. Lock onto target and fire an AMRAAM. It will go down Dancing. LOL!!!

 

[hot222]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

So if vector thrusting is not important, why is going to be used at F-22s and F-35s? Seems useful now? By the way I want to show that they have the power to be pioneers in aviation.

About AMRAAMs and kills BVR, it a story. There are many technics to avoid it and countermesures to "brake lock". Specially when it's from far away and have time for reaction.

How that happened? Fly at a 90 deg. angle to missiles vector, ECMs on missile radar (any integrated system will automatically try to brake lock to any foreign radar energy), and when comes inside of a 2-3 km range, brake hard towards to missile, will firing chaffs. This will force the missile to turn also a lot of harder to maintain lead at the aircraft. But it will have travelled for a long way, with the engine out.

Believe it or not, there is not and never will be the "pefrect" weapon.