NZDF - Now and the Future.
- Thread starter Whiskyjack
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I'd tend to agree. The NZDF tends to go for proven equipment and designs as a rule to minimise the risk. One reason our Sea Sprite are flying and the Aussie's are grounded. It does have it drawbacks, but operationally and politically its a more ideal approach for a small nation (thats the size of the UK).Rocco_NZ said:
With seven new ships entering service over the next two years there will need to be a period of consolidation too. Practically the earliers time any additions to the fleet could be made would be some time around late 08/early 09 - and only assuming recruitment keeps up.Lucasnz said:
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I don't disagree, my thinking is more 8-10 years down the track. As I think that this is where the RNZN needs to look at evolving to regional conditions. The ANZACs are still nedded as is a third combatent IMO.Lucasnz said:
Although I would like to see one of these built and tested in the South Pacific, in conjunction with the Australians. If this test proves succesful they would be a good replacement for the RANs LCH Fleet!
Sorry the last is a bit off topic but just occured to me.
I agree with the time frame, between now and the then the navy still has to replace the diving tender, possibly the tanker and Kahu, plus upgrade the existing ANZAC's, so the money would not be available until then. It would also ensure that any combat force is developed and improved over time with out the significant fiscal hit that the ANZAC's were going to cause in the late1980's.Whiskyjack said:
Like the testing idea, in conjuction with Australia.
I belive the Orions have an ECM capability, along with CHAFF been fitted as part of the upgrade. I believe an Air capability is been added to the P3, but not sure where I read that. The C-130 and SH-2G both have CHAFF.
As to NZ needs the close air support role is probably better supplied via attack helicopter these days, along with escort of any troop carrying helicopter. So say 16 for NZ (Operational 10: Conversion 3: Maint / Attrition 3)
Maritime strike / Interdication is fast jet, but where is the cut off point in using a P3 in those roles instead of an F-16 (Same numbers for above).
No real hostile threat from the island nations themselves. But RNZAF would not be able to defend against any hostile nation who either sent a carrier into island nations, or a hostile nation who persuaded one of the island governments to allow basing of fighters of strike aircraft. Although this seems a remote possibility at the moment, I would not be surprised if it occured in the future, esp with Chinese interest in Pacific Island affairs.Big-E said:
Yeah it would make sense to acquire a modern fighter, F-16s good, F/A-18 would seem better being a naval design. NZ govt could provide more assitance to Nuie to improve their airfield. NZ could use it as a static carrier in the Pacific. Maybe a bit much for current govt to think about, but worth thinking about.
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Rnzaf
I believe it could possibly be to expensive for NZ to reconstitute its fighter arm, however in a true demonstration of CDR, I think it would be possible for New Zealand to "sponsor" a RAAF Squadron for Australia, RNZAF pilots could do their basic flight traing in NZ, then move on to Aus to continue on adavnced trainers, perhaps a 60-75% of operating cost, I don't what this is but if I remember rightly elimanation of the Fighter wings with the trainers saved around 600 million NZ a year, this would provide a air defence capability for NZ, with a ltd maritme strike capability untill gets a A2A refuelling capable Aircraft, 757 replacement I guess. Benefits for RAAF, extra pilots for its Combat wing, money towards operating costs, and the ability to have squadrons depolyed on a "expeditonary basis" as well as having a Fighter squadron closer to the South Pacific, even not 12, 6 would be sufficent much like the stationing of Scooters at RAN Air Station Nowra. As the world segments into polarisation again, Defence relations just get closer so it would make sense instead of spending a couple of hundred million just to start everything again plus costs of a new fighter work as a team, which is of course NZ and Aus will do in anything from a medium intensity conflict.
I believe it could possibly be to expensive for NZ to reconstitute its fighter arm, however in a true demonstration of CDR, I think it would be possible for New Zealand to "sponsor" a RAAF Squadron for Australia, RNZAF pilots could do their basic flight traing in NZ, then move on to Aus to continue on adavnced trainers, perhaps a 60-75% of operating cost, I don't what this is but if I remember rightly elimanation of the Fighter wings with the trainers saved around 600 million NZ a year, this would provide a air defence capability for NZ, with a ltd maritme strike capability untill gets a A2A refuelling capable Aircraft, 757 replacement I guess. Benefits for RAAF, extra pilots for its Combat wing, money towards operating costs, and the ability to have squadrons depolyed on a "expeditonary basis" as well as having a Fighter squadron closer to the South Pacific, even not 12, 6 would be sufficent much like the stationing of Scooters at RAN Air Station Nowra. As the world segments into polarisation again, Defence relations just get closer so it would make sense instead of spending a couple of hundred million just to start everything again plus costs of a new fighter work as a team, which is of course NZ and Aus will do in anything from a medium intensity conflict.
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
To Confirm the Helo Purchases.............
Budget 06: Meeting Defence Needs at Home and Abroad
(Source: New Zealand Ministry of Defence; issued May 18, 2006)
Budget 2006 highlights the government's commitment to ensuring New Zealand meets its defence and security needs at home and abroad.
The Defence Force will receive an extra $72.8 million in 2006/07 in the second instalment to meet the objectives outlined in the ten-year, $4.6 billion Defence Sustainability Initiative, Defence Minister Phil Goff said.
"New Zealand has a strong reputation as a responsible international citizen through our diplomatic and peacekeeping efforts in places as challenging as Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands.
"The Labour-led government is committed to ensuring New Zealand plays our part in international affairs and continues to rebuild a modern, professional, and well-equipped Defence Force, which meets our broad security needs.
"This new expenditure will help ensure we achieve these goals and meet our responsibilities in the world. It will allow us to increase personnel numbers by up to 15 percent, bringing new equipment into service, re-building infrastructure, and increasing reserve stocks," Phil Goff said.
"On top of the increase in baseline funding, the Budget also allocates $305 million to capital projects this financial year including provision for a part payment on the purchase of new helicopters to replace the ageing Iroquois and Sioux fleets, and to fit out Defence Headquarters."
The capital allocation also funds projects already approved, such as the upgrade of the C-130 Hercules and P3 Orion fleets, the construction of seven new vessels for the Navy under Project Protector, and the purchase of specialist equipment for the Army.
Well a little bit of good news, at least funding allocated for Helicopters, and a increase is better than a decrease, however the Helicopter decision and numbers is well overdue which worries me about numbers.
Budget 06: Meeting Defence Needs at Home and Abroad
(Source: New Zealand Ministry of Defence; issued May 18, 2006)
Budget 2006 highlights the government's commitment to ensuring New Zealand meets its defence and security needs at home and abroad.
The Defence Force will receive an extra $72.8 million in 2006/07 in the second instalment to meet the objectives outlined in the ten-year, $4.6 billion Defence Sustainability Initiative, Defence Minister Phil Goff said.
"New Zealand has a strong reputation as a responsible international citizen through our diplomatic and peacekeeping efforts in places as challenging as Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands.
"The Labour-led government is committed to ensuring New Zealand plays our part in international affairs and continues to rebuild a modern, professional, and well-equipped Defence Force, which meets our broad security needs.
"This new expenditure will help ensure we achieve these goals and meet our responsibilities in the world. It will allow us to increase personnel numbers by up to 15 percent, bringing new equipment into service, re-building infrastructure, and increasing reserve stocks," Phil Goff said.
"On top of the increase in baseline funding, the Budget also allocates $305 million to capital projects this financial year including provision for a part payment on the purchase of new helicopters to replace the ageing Iroquois and Sioux fleets, and to fit out Defence Headquarters."
The capital allocation also funds projects already approved, such as the upgrade of the C-130 Hercules and P3 Orion fleets, the construction of seven new vessels for the Navy under Project Protector, and the purchase of specialist equipment for the Army.
Well a little bit of good news, at least funding allocated for Helicopters, and a increase is better than a decrease, however the Helicopter decision and numbers is well overdue which worries me about numbers.
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Don't know if any of you would be interested by this but check this out
A-4 Alley (http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/index.html)
Its an excellent site dedicated to the memory of the skyhawks in RNZAF + RAN service. And a sober reminder of what NZ Lost= one of the most highly trained anti-shipping forces in the world...50ft above sea level was the norm for No.s 2 + 75 sqn's.
A-4 Alley (http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/index.html)
Its an excellent site dedicated to the memory of the skyhawks in RNZAF + RAN service. And a sober reminder of what NZ Lost= one of the most highly trained anti-shipping forces in the world...50ft above sea level was the norm for No.s 2 + 75 sqn's.
So ya reckon if they'd poured more money into a second-hand ro-ro cargo ship to counter all the stability problems + lack of proper military grade systems and damage control facilities then they would have had a decent transport ship?
nah..the Charles Upham was a compromise born of compromises..In the end they hid it away in the Med. hauling oranges or something like that.
Truth is NZ has little or no first-hand experience in naval troop-hauling logistics..we've always relyed on contractors or other navies to do the actual hauling,Its something we're gona have to learn from scratch..lets hope they get it right this time.
nah..the Charles Upham was a compromise born of compromises..In the end they hid it away in the Med. hauling oranges or something like that.
Truth is NZ has little or no first-hand experience in naval troop-hauling logistics..we've always relyed on contractors or other navies to do the actual hauling,Its something we're gona have to learn from scratch..lets hope they get it right this time.
I think if more money was spent on the project apart from the initial purchase a much better result could have been achieved. Going from memory a bit here. From what I remember the purchase price was around NZ$15M. Total cost of installing damage control systems, military comms, helicopter facilities and most importantly the ballast control and stability system. The total project cost (purchase+conversion) was estimated to be around NZ$60M.
It's important to note that stability issues were as a result of a high bouyancy, a direct consequence of the relativley low weights military loads have compared to civil loads. Unfortunatley without the modifcations it wasn't a pleasant ride for anyone embarked.
The end result of the project would have been to delivery a good, basic strategic transport vessel. With around 1500 lane meters of vehicle decks it has a much larger cargo capacity than the Canterbury. For tactical duties Canterbury is much more capable. Cost wise a post-conversion Upham would have cost approximatley NZ$60M - roughly the same amount as we are spending per C-130 airframe upgrade. Canterbury is price capped at around $150M.
It's like compariing apples and oranges really.
It's important to note that stability issues were as a result of a high bouyancy, a direct consequence of the relativley low weights military loads have compared to civil loads. Unfortunatley without the modifcations it wasn't a pleasant ride for anyone embarked.
The end result of the project would have been to delivery a good, basic strategic transport vessel. With around 1500 lane meters of vehicle decks it has a much larger cargo capacity than the Canterbury. For tactical duties Canterbury is much more capable. Cost wise a post-conversion Upham would have cost approximatley NZ$60M - roughly the same amount as we are spending per C-130 airframe upgrade. Canterbury is price capped at around $150M.
It's like compariing apples and oranges really.
...And pears
I had a chat to a NZLAV crew recently + I'd been happey to share what they had to say 'bout their new ride' if anyones interested - they had quite a few interesting positive points to make about it..definitly altered my views on the vehicle, as one of the guys was quite seasoned and wasnt just spitting pro-LAV propaganda...
Hey cheers heaps for that clarification.Rocco_NZ said:
I had a chat to a NZLAV crew recently + I'd been happey to share what they had to say 'bout their new ride' if anyones interested - they had quite a few interesting positive points to make about it..definitly altered my views on the vehicle, as one of the guys was quite seasoned and wasnt just spitting pro-LAV propaganda...
Do you mean aka Nimrod/sidewinder sorta thing?? I'm sure the RNZAF could get round the RAF's tone-lock issue, when aquiring targets..maybe No.8 wire and a bell..Lucasnz said:
I know the orions have a secondary low-level bombing capablity, dunno how they sight the taget though, maybe with the turret?..
Check out: http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/index.html and watch the firestarter '99 vid. Can anyone clarify if the RNZAF still inventories Zuni rockets for the P-3K's?
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