NZDF - Now and the Future.

[Whiskyjack]

Might need a 2nd MRV for the Helos to haul some fuel and weapons for the JSF (actually I'm not sure the wings would fit through the Hangar entrance anyway looks a tad tight), could transport them on the deck and hope you don't strike any tropical cyclones on the way (bit like the case where our A4's nearly got thrown off the carrier on the the trip to NZ).

I think that something in the 14,000-20,000 ton range would be needed.

realisticly I don't think it would work beacuse the logistics train would be large and the ability to secure an airport for operations would also be problamatic IMO.

 

[KH-12]

Actually I am wondering if Australia/NZ should not concider some form of 'barebase' on a Pacific Island to the north. Basically a runway with basic facilities, maybe a basic breakwater port to allow ships to unload fuel and supplies.

Somewhere that can be used for P3 operations if needed, or for ANZAC forces to forward deploy into the Pacific for an operation, including Peace Enforcement and Disaster Relief e.t.c....?

Would need to find a suitable spot.

Similar to the concept used in the north of Australia. Comments?

How about Niue, airport can handle C-130's / P3's (maybe 757's) port abit shallow however, good strategic location, good relations with NZ.

 

[Whiskyjack]

How about Niue, airport can handle C-130's / P3's (maybe 757's) port abit shallow however, good strategic location, good relations with NZ.

Geographically good, and an ability to improve local infrastructure in return for a dual use civil/military base. Port Facilities would need to be improved.

I would think that the RAAF would want to fly their A330s and C-17 out of there as well.

I think Niue is under NZ juristiction as well.

 

[Markus40]

Why not??? Im really scratching my head and trying to figure out what would hinder 2 x C130s from doing AAR work for lets say 5 fast movers with ground suppression munitions.

NZ does NOT need 5-6 A330s like Australia are getting to do this job, and why would the fast movers be needed for CAS? There is no air force our fast movers would be up against. Remember we talked about this some time back.
Its a quick in and out job to supress concentration of heavy weapons and troop concentrations.

Where did you get 30 fast movers from? If 5-6 Harriers can take out a runway at Port Stanly airport then our "imaginary hawkes" can do the same in Fiji. Please remember that im not advocating a war with fiji. Im creating a "fictious scenario" based upon extreme events should they happen.

Mate 2 x C-130s equipped with AAR will get you nowhere. Unless NZ can buy 5-6 A330s or the like there is no way that fast movers will be in a position to provide CAS out into the pacific. Even then it would require more like 30 fast movers to be able to maintain a decent sortie rate.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Why not??? Im really scratching my head and trying to figure out what would hinder 2 x C130s from doing AAR work for lets say 5 fast movers with ground suppression munitions.

NZ does NOT need 5-6 A330s like Australia are getting to do this job, and why would the fast movers be needed for CAS? There is no air force our fast movers would be up against. Remember we talked about this some time back.
Its a quick in and out job to supress concentration of heavy weapons and troop concentrations.

Where did you get 30 fast movers from? If 5-6 Harriers can take out a runway at Port Stanly airport then our "imaginary hawkes" can do the same in Fiji. Please remember that im not advocating a war with fiji. Im creating a "fictious scenario" based upon extreme events should they happen.

Okay I just want to make sure I don’t have the wrong end of the stick here.

Where are the fast movers based?

 

[Markus40]

An operation in Fiji doesnt need primarily the need for a forward operating base for a mission in Fiji for example. I believe strongly that despite the limited numbers of troop personel on the MRV the Navy could contract 2 Pacifica Ro/Ro vessels to add more troop numbers and equipment for the Army to send by sea, along with 2 Frigates and an OPV and our Fueler.

The NZ Army could take the Port facilities in Suva, thus providing the way for the Ro/Ros and at the same time take over Suva Airport with the MRV troops and LAVS. Once a LZ has been secured then we can start bringing in our air element with C130s and 757s to start pushing up the troop numbers.

Geographically good, and an ability to improve local infrastructure in return for a dual use civil/military base. Port Facilities would need to be improved.

I would think that the RAAF would want to fly their A330s and C-17 out of there as well.

I think Niue is under NZ juristiction as well.

 

[Markus40]

Ohakea or Auckland. Even Rarotonga. Niue as suggested.

Okay I just want to make sure I don’t have the wrong end of the stick here.

Where are the fast movers based?

 

[Whiskyjack]

Ohakea or Auckland. Even Rarotonga. Niue as suggested.

Cool, lets take Auckland first. I am going to use the Gripen as I think it is a representative light fighter aircraft in terms of weight etc.

The Gripen Has a radius of action of 800km according to most websites. Internal Fuel is 5,000lbs and I would assume (happy to be corrected) that the mission would have another centre line drop tank of another 2,000lbs, so 7,000lbs of fuel (it may actually be 2 I am not sure, that would put fuel load up again).

Fiji is 2,000km away from Auckland so a round trip of 4,000kms, plus another 800km built in for reserve and time on target. So 1 Gripen will need 21,000lbs of fuel.

A KC-130J according to global security can offload 45,0000lbs of fuel at a 1800km radius.

So lets say that 4 Gripens are delivering 8 PGMs to a target identified by a ground observer. they would need to refuel in-route, over the target area and on the way home and may actually require 1 extra refuel, but I will leave it at three.

So this one mission will require 56,000lbs of fuel from two C-130Js.

For that mission to be accomplished both tankers would need to get in position first so from the time the mission is generated it would take around 6 hrs AT A MINIMUM to hit the target!

Now I am am a novice when it comes to mission planning, so I have not even thought about war-load vs range, the ability to divert if a tanking does not go according to plan etc…

The simple truth Marcus is that there are very few AFs in the world that can conduct a mission 2000km from home out over water like we are talking about. The logistics are mind boggling.

 

[KH-12]

Ohakea or Auckland. Even Rarotonga. Niue as suggested.

Remember Whenuapai will be a housing estate in a couple of years , actually Kaitaia has 1400M of seal and nice north location (US built it during WW2 as an emergency bomber field) should be OK.

Probably better off with some attack helicopters on the MRV (Tigers / Cobras)
I don't think the Fijians have SAMS or MANPADS to worry about. You could probably pack in 2 attack Helos in the MRV if you only embarked 3 NH90.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Ohakea or Auckland. Even Rarotonga. Niue as suggested.

Once you get to basing in the Pacific it also become more complicated as you have to have the logistics, fuel, spares, weapons moved up to support your ops. While moving your troops and their equipment and logistics up at the same time.

Although if you can overcome this it does make it easier to conduct missions.

 

[Markus40]

Maybe complicated on the basis of basing more equipment and supplies there, but as far as moving it from there, No. The C130s can fly drop equipment and fly back to base, if the C130s were foward based. IE Rarotonga.

Once you get to basing in the Pacific it also become more complicated as you have to have the logistics, fuel, spares, weapons moved up to support your ops. While moving your troops and their equipment and logistics up at the same time.

Although if you can overcome this it does make it easier to conduct missions.

 

[Markus40]

The Gripen and Hawke are two different aircraft. However, theres still no reason why the 2 x C130s cant rendevoux with the Gripens for refueling.

I agree that the exercise is long, but not impossible. Remember the Falklands.

Cool, lets take Auckland first. I am going to use the Gripen as I think it is a representative light fighter aircraft in terms of weight etc.

The Gripen Has a radius of action of 800km according to most websites. Internal Fuel is 5,000lbs and I would assume (happy to be corrected) that the mission would have another centre line drop tank of another 2,000lbs, so 7,000lbs of fuel (it may actually be 2 I am not sure, that would put fuel load up again).

Fiji is 2,000km away from Auckland so a round trip of 4,000kms, plus another 800km built in for reserve and time on target. So 1 Gripen will need 21,000lbs of fuel.

A KC-130J according to global security can offload 45,0000lbs of fuel at a 1800km radius.

So lets say that 4 Gripens are delivering 8 PGMs to a target identified by a ground observer. they would need to refuel in-route, over the target area and on the way home and may actually require 1 extra refuel, but I will leave it at three.

So this one mission will require 56,000lbs of fuel from two C-130Js.

For that mission to be accomplished both tankers would need to get in position first so from the time the mission is generated it would take around 6 hrs AT A MINIMUM to hit the target!

Now I am am a novice when it comes to mission planning, so I have not even thought about war-load vs range, the ability to divert if a tanking does not go according to plan etc…

The simple truth Marcus is that there are very few AFs in the world that can conduct a mission 2000km from home out over water like we are talking about. The logistics are mind boggling.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Maybe complicated on the basis of basing more equipment and supplies there, but as far as moving it from there, No. The C130s can fly drop equipment and fly back to base, if the C130s were foward based. IE Rarotonga.

Yes, but you have to maintain the stocks of equipment and the ability to get it from NZ to the Pacific. Remember unless you have a base set up already you will need infrastructure to be set up. political support from an independant nation to base there (some exceptions) and the manpower to base a logistics chain from Auckland 2000kms out into the Pacific.

its all possible if you have a few months up your sleave, but if things turn to S**t what sort of timeframe will you have?

 

[Whiskyjack]

The Gripen and Hawke are two different aircraft. However, theres still no reason why the 2 x C130s cant rendevoux with the Gripens for refueling.

I agree that the exercise is long, but not impossible. Remember the Falklands.

I do remember the Falklands, key to that was a country of 60 million people set up to fight world war three, who had regular military in excess of 300,000, aircraft carriers with basic air defence, SSNs to interdict sea lanes and a large merchant fleet etc.. and it almost was to much for them.

If NZ spends the money it can do it, but will it and is conducting airstrikes out into the pacific more important than projecting ground forces?

 

[Markus40]

No, NZ is not like the UK. And its not going to fork out massive amounts of money to fight a war over a SUSTAINED period of time. However, its quite well within our grasp to do this job quickly with all elements of our armed services involved. Remember we can get 2 -3 vessels to bring most of our troop requirement levels to Fiji through Pacifica.

Another thing about the Falklands is that Argentina did have very good military forces that could have turned ugly for the British but it was by a stroke of luck that they never came up against the full fury of the Argentine military. The Falklands campaign isnt to the British what NZ capability is to the Fijians. We are talking about a whole different ball game.

I do remember the Falklands, key to that was a country of 60 million people set up to fight world war three, who had regular military in excess of 300,000, aircraft carriers with basic air defence, SSNs to interdict sea lanes and a large merchant fleet etc.. and it almost was to much for them.

If NZ spends the money it can do it, but will it and is conducting airstrikes out into the pacific more important than projecting ground forces?

 

[Whiskyjack]

No, NZ is not like the UK. And its not going to fork out massive amounts of money to fight a war over a SUSTAINED period of time. However, its quite well within our grasp to do this job quickly with all elements of our armed services involved. Remember we can get 2 -3 vessels to bring most of our troop requirement levels to Fiji through Pacifica.

Another thing about the Falklands is that Argentina did have very good military forces that could have turned ugly for the British but it was by a stroke of luck that they never came up against the full fury of the Argentine military. The Falklands campaign isnt to the British what NZ capability is to the Fijians. We are talking about a whole different ball game.

Yes we are, the Fijian military is professional. I actually see NZ as worse off in the current situation. I also want to emphasize to anyone reading that I use Fiji as a worst case scenario for the NZDF, I do not advocate invading Fiji for the sake of invading Fiji.

What I advocate is an ability for the NZDF to deploy 500-600 men across a beach and sustain them for 30 days. Using access to superior technology and equipment to use ISTAR, mobility and fire power to overwhelm any opposition in the South Pacific.

I would like to see that force sailing from NZ no later than 10 days from the Govt saying go in a normal climate. With 30 days notice I would like to see a force of 1000-1200 in two ships sailing from NZ, in an emergency!

 

[Markus40]

Basic structure can be implemented very quickly on Rarotonga using MASH like accommodation and facilities for forward operations. Theres even a port there for our MRV and Ro/Ros if needed and would be if we were to engage this kind of operation. Its an incredibly short distance to Fiji from Raro and thus operations would succeed based on this scenario.

Yes, but you have to maintain the stocks of equipment and the ability to get it from NZ to the Pacific. Remember unless you have a base set up already you will need infrastructure to be set up. political support from an independant nation to base there (some exceptions) and the manpower to base a logistics chain from Auckland 2000kms out into the Pacific.

its all possible if you have a few months up your sleave, but if things turn to S**t what sort of timeframe will you have?

 

[Markus40]

Seeing is believeing, brother. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that its well within NZs capability to put together an operation i am talking about and to field troops and weapons using the means of transport and equipment as advised.

I dont think any head knocker is going to just land up on Fijis shores without good reason for doing so, and as i am not a politician i would gladly leave it to them to sponsor the exercise and political weight.

The scenario i am putting forward CAN work, and could be fully implemented within a 10 day deadline.

Another thing Mr Whiskyjack is that the Fijian military Are NOT as diciplined as you might like to think considering the number of coups and corruption within its ranks.

Yes we are, the Fijian military is professional. I actually see NZ as worse off in the current situation. I also want to emphasize to anyone reading that I use Fiji as a worst case scenario for the NZDF, I do not advocate invading Fiji for the sake of invading Fiji.

What I advocate is an ability for the NZDF to deploy 500-600 men across a beach and sustain them for 30 days. Using access to superior technology and equipment to use ISTAR, mobility and fire power to overwhelm any opposition in the South Pacific.

I would like to see that force sailing from NZ no later than 10 days from the Govt saying go in a normal climate. With 30 days notice I would like to see a force of 1000-1200 in two ships sailing from NZ, in an emergency!

 

[Whiskyjack]

Seeing is believeing, brother. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that its well within NZs capability to put together an operation i am talking about and to field troops and weapons using the means of transport and equipment as advised.

I dont think any head knocker is going to just land up on Fijis shores without good reason for doing so, and as i am not a politician i would gladly leave it to them to sponsor the exercise and political weight.

The scenario i am putting forward CAN work, and could be fully implemented within a 10 day deadline.

Another thing Mr Whiskyjack is that the Fijian military Are NOT as diciplined as you might like to think considering the number of coups and corruption within its ranks.

Actually according to many professional sources the Fijian military are considered very professional and disciplined, hence the coups have actually been bloodless and the nation has not fractured. I think Aussie Digger alluded to this in a previous post.

As for staging an invasion/lodgement. I think it can be done in the way you describe, but at considerable risk and not as fast as you allude to. One thing tho. I do not believe that the NZDF has the logistics and stores it requires to carry out this operation at the present time.

To get back to my overriding point, the NZDF needs to be structured, equipped and supplied to carry out a worst case scenario operation in NZ’s area of operations. I believe the army is mostly there (and has a plan to get it even further in the right direction), all that is required is the lift, logistics infrastructure, and supplies to get it from A to B.

 

[Whiskyjack]

. Its an incredibly short distance to Fiji from Raro and thus operations would succeed based on this scenario.

FYI the distance from Suva to Rarotonga is 2200kms about the same from Auckland to Suva.