NZDF - Now and the Future.

[Stuart Mackey]

I find that there are generally a few nuggets of gold in a lot of bad strategies.

There is no real Defence website aimed at NZ. I guess a few of us need to get together and get one going where people can come and learn about defence without having an ideology (from either side) shoved down their throat.

That, is not a bad idea and one which I think is worth some serious consideration.

I am not sure how balanced it would be, even I (believe it or not) can be a bit one sided sometimes .

Lol, I can agree with that , but in all honesty if rules on a site are neutral and properly enforced, its possible to get a reasonable balance and decent debate.

 

[mug]

Public Pride in NZDF

Still NZDF related, this article mentioned patriotism 'levels' in various countries. This sentence caught my eye (emphasis added):

The country also ranked third for pride in the arts and literature, and fourth for pride in our armed forces.

I had a quick look at the NORC website but couldn't find any more info about the study or how it was conducted.

It appears to correlate with surveys conducted after the disbandment of 75 Sqdn regarding public support for the air combat wing.

Interesting then that frigates can be cancelled, Skyhawks sold, etc, with no real political fallout.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Still NZDF related, this article mentioned patriotism 'levels' in various countries. This sentence caught my eye (emphasis added):



I had a quick look at the NORC website but couldn't find any more info about the study or how it was conducted.

It appears to correlate with surveys conducted after the disbandment of 75 Sqdn regarding public support for the air combat wing.

Interesting then that frigates can be cancelled, Skyhawks sold, etc, with no real political fallout.

Pride in armed forces does not necessarily correlate to paying for them! Especially when the threat seem to be centred around poor health services etc…

 

[Whiskyjack]

That, is not a bad idea and one which I think is worth some serious consideration.



Lol, I can agree with that , but in all honesty if rules on a site are neutral and properly enforced, its possible to get a reasonable balance and decent debate.

One of the first things I would do is a Guide to the NZ Defence Budget for Dummies!

Even I struggle some times working out figures when GST and Capital charge are included, then there are capital injections etc…

 

[mug]

On the topic of defence budgets, I was looking through a brochure on the RNZN budget for 2005 (or possibly 2004-5). It had a pie chart detailing the three main areas of the navy budget: capital, depreciation and capital cost(?).

I know the latter has been mentioned here as a curiously NZ beast, but does anyone know where a good summary of it can be found? I only really ask because it was the largest of the three areas (~$130 mil IIRC, as opposed to ~$100 mil for capital and <$100 mil for depreciation).

Cheers.

 

[Markus40]

A website would be good but there are some diverse issues we all have in our overall Defence initiatives. I agree with some and i dont agree with other things. Vice versa. So a web site would not be one sided. But rather leave an open ended option to gather further responses or information from the general public if a site was offering a feed back system.

One of the first things I would do is a Guide to the NZ Defence Budget for Dummies!

Even I struggle some times working out figures when GST and Capital charge are included, then there are capital injections etc…

 

[Whiskyjack]

A website would be good but there are some diverse issues we all have in our overall Defence initiatives. I agree with some and i dont agree with other things. Vice versa. So a web site would not be one sided. But rather leave an open ended option to gather further responses or information from the general public if a site was offering a feed back system.

Yes it would have to allow for differing points of view.

I would be interested in things like:

• actual defence budget
• price list for various equipment etc
• force structures

 

[Markus40]

How much can a website be set up and have the relevant information on it for a feed back ?

Yes it would have to allow for differing points of view.

I would be interested in things like:

• actual defence budget
• price list for various equipment etc
• force structures

 

[Whiskyjack]

How much can a website be set up and have the relevant information on it for a feed back ?

Not really sure on set up costs. The relevant info would have to be vetted, with a source and notes. E.g. price includes support costs for 20 years etc..

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Hi mug, the capital charge is leveled against the assetts of government departments based upon their value. The idea is that departments will better ultilise their assetts, and rid themselves of poor proforming ones. The government pays the charge to itself, so it is basically a bookkeeping entry.

"The intention of the capital charge was to make explicit the true costs of the taxpayers' investment by requiring recognition of those costs."

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/corporate/defence-expenditure.htm

For 2006/7 total spending is forecast to be $1.749 billion, personel $620 million, operating $552 million, depreciation (ultilised for purchase of capital items) $264 million, and the capital charge of $313 million, the latter is paid to the DF which pays it back to the government.

P.S. The last I heard the DF had assetts of about $3.5 billion and is charged 9% on the capital tied up in those assetts, where the $313 million capital charge comes from. For some reason Health Boards are charged 11%, unless that was an old site, and it has reduced since, yes, I think I recall the reduction in the last budget.

 

[Supe]

How much can a website be set up and have the relevant information on it for a feed back ?

Why bother with paying for a website when you can do all you guys want with a blog(s)? While there are plenty of crap blogs (probably most of them) some blogs have massive readership and can and have been very influential.

WebMaster proposal for member blogs....

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4615

 

[mug]

Hi mug, the capital charge is leveled against the assetts of government departments based upon their value. The idea is that departments will better ultilise their assetts, and rid themselves of poor proforming ones. The government pays the charge to itself, so it is basically a bookkeeping entry.

"The intention of the capital charge was to make explicit the true costs of the taxpayers' investment by requiring recognition of those costs."

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/corporate/defence-expenditure.htm

For 2006/7 total spending is forecast to be $1.749 billion, personel $620 million, operating $552 million, depreciation (ultilised for purchase of capital items) $264 million, and the capital charge of $313 million, the latter is paid to the DF which pays it back to the government.

Cheers for that Enigma. There doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot of info on the capital charge which, considering it's such a large part of the budget, is frustrating.

 

[mug]

This hot off the wire - I see we've taken delivery of our shiny new Javelins:

NZ troops about to shoulder latest arms

Edit: Same topic (but with a few more details) here:

New missiles cost $141,000 a shot

 

[webmaster]

Why bother with paying for a website when you can do all you guys want with a blog(s)? While there are plenty of crap blogs (probably most of them) some blogs have massive readership and can and have been very influential.

WebMaster proposal for member blogs....

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4615

I decided to get the blogs on their own domain rather than on DT so defenceblogs.com will be up soon offering members to create their own blogs in various defence, military and maybe political categories. Currently, it is going through some changes and final adjustments plus I've been busy with Auto-Talk.net lately.

 

[Padman]

A bit off topic but I read that former Army Chief, Major General Bruce Meldrum, CB, OBE passed away in Auckland on Wednesday 14 June 2006.

Major General Meldrum held the Army’s top job as Chief of General Staff from March 1989 to Feb 1992. He was noted as an officer who was thoughtful of needs of the people under his command, and lead the army during a period of restructuring and relocation. He was well respected at all levels of the service both in NZ and overseas.

A funeral with full military honours was held for Major General Meldrum at the Cathedral of the Holy Trinity in Parnell, Auckland at 11.00am on Tuesday 20 June 2006. The service was followed by a private family committal.

"A mighty Totara has fallen"

 

[Supe]

This hot off the wire - I see we've taken delivery of our shiny new Javelins:

NZ troops about to shoulder latest arms

Edit: Same topic (but with a few more details) here:

New missiles cost $141,000 a shot

I was pleasantly surprised in reading the articles that there was no 'critics of the missile purchase, say that it supports the U.S military-industrial complex and money could be better spent ..'.

 

[mug]

I was pleasantly surprised in reading the articles that there was no 'critics of the missile purchase, say that it supports the U.S military-industrial complex and money could be better spent ..'.

Ha! I would hold off that comment until a certain Mr Locke and his colleagues have read today's papers.

:mock

(Just couldn't help the smiley)

 

[Sea Toby]

Keep in mind these costs numbers are in New Zealand dollars, which is currently about 60 cents of an American dollar. When you consider this government spent over $600 million for 100 or so LAVIIIs, $6 million each, $100 thousand for each Javelin missile is miniscule. The total Javelin program is $26 million in New Zealand dollars. I wonder what an Australian M-1 tank costs?

If the Greens don't want to pay for this very small program, I wonder what other equipment they would prefer to do the same? While the Javelin may appear offensive, in my mind its a defensive weapon, and it should have been acquired years ago.

 

[Whiskyjack]

This hot off the wire - I see we've taken delivery of our shiny new Javelins:

NZ troops about to shoulder latest arms

Edit: Same topic (but with a few more details) here:

New missiles cost $141,000 a shot

Great to see, but concider this.

This requirement became hot in 1995/96 when NZ deployed to Bosnia and the troops in their M113s had a run in with a tank (which belonged to one of the factions, can't remember which one), so from the time it was needed to the time operational 11-12 years. That is for a NZ$26m purchase, which in the scheme of the Defence budget (even in NZ) is minor.

 

[machina]

I wonder what an Australian M-1 tank costs?

AU$550M for 59. So NZ$8-9M a pop.