NZDF General discussion thread

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
An economic blockade does not take away your sovereignty or freedom. painful yes, but not as disastrously destructive as other options.
Not sure id agree with this, if a hostile power is depriving you of fuel for your ambulances, tractors etc and nitrates for your fertiliser, id suggest that might be more than just painful it would collapse the economy and kill people.
 

Perentie

New Member
Not sure id agree with this, if a hostile power is depriving you of fuel for your ambulances, tractors etc and nitrates for your fertiliser, id suggest that might be more than just painful it would collapse the economy and kill people.
Take something as simple as Urea which is used in both fertiliser (food supply) and heavy vehicle freight (Adblue). Australia, during covid supply chain issues and a potential trade war, realised what happens when you rely on overseas suppliers (China) for what seams an innocuous item that has the potential to shut two critical industries down.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
Take something as simple as Urea which is used in both fertiliser (food supply) and heavy vehicle freight (Adblue). Australia, during covid supply chain issues and a potential trade war, realised what happens when you rely on overseas suppliers (China) for what seams an innocuous item that has the potential to shut two critical industries down.
Exactly, NZs capacity to be something other than subsistence farming is reliant on imports of any number of items from fuel to tractor parts to computers and everything in between.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not sure id agree with this, if a hostile power is depriving you of fuel for your ambulances, tractors etc and nitrates for your fertiliser, id suggest that might be more than just painful it would collapse the economy and kill people.
First of all, what are you talking about, You said an economic blockade which would mean virtually all of our trading partners would have to be involved and that would have to include friends such Australia, UK, USA and many others. this is simply not going to happen. If on the other hand you meant a military blockade, the logistics of this make this extremely unlikely due to the distances involve from any potential aggressor. The chances of closing of the Tasman sea by blockade where any units involved would be subject land based aggression from both sides is very remote. and the vast area's of ocean surrounding the rest of NZ make any blockade impractical due to the shear area involved. The only reason a hostile power would attempt this is if NZ was the sole target for their aggression and the only hostile power with anything like the resources to do this would be China. For them to do this without including Australia and by default the UK and USA is so unlikely as to be a virtual non starter, as so much of their armed forces would be tied up else where.
This would make it a lot easier, (given our poor state of our armed force) to simply invade us.
I would add that the shutting down of our refinery was a strategic mistake in regard to our strategic fuel supply.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Take something as simple as Urea which is used in both fertiliser (food supply) and heavy vehicle freight (Adblue). Australia, during covid supply chain issues and a potential trade war, realised what happens when you rely on overseas suppliers (China) for what seams an innocuous item that has the potential to shut two critical industries down.
We produce 260000tonnes of urea in NZ annually and have done for 40 years.
 
Last edited:

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would add that the shutting down of our refinery was a strategic mistake in regard to our strategic fuel supply.
To the above I would add that if we had retained the refinery our own oil would have covered some of the essential duties as we exported over $560M in 2021
.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
First of all, what are you talking about, You said an economic blockade which would mean virtually all of our trading partners would have to be involved and that would have to include friends such Australia, UK, USA and many others. this is simply not going to happen. If on the other hand you meant a military blockade, the logistics of this make this extremely unlikely due to the distances involve from any potential aggressor. The chances of closing of the Tasman sea by blockade where any units involved would be subject land based aggression from both sides is very remote. and the vast area's of ocean surrounding the rest of NZ make any blockade impractical due to the shear area involved. The only reason a hostile power would attempt this is if NZ was the sole target for their aggression and the only hostile power with anything like the resources to do this would be China. For them to do this without including Australia and by default the UK and USA is so unlikely as to be a virtual non starter, as so much of their armed forces would be tied up else where.
This would make it a lot easier, (given our poor state of our armed force) to simply invade us.
I would add that the shutting down of our refinery was a strategic mistake in regard to our strategic fuel supply.
Given the context of this site, and this threads recent topics on NZs relations with China I'd suggest that threat of or actual hostilities is kind of implied; im sorry you didn't understand this.

I'm at a loss to understand your post; why do you think NZ politicians have essentially pursued a policy of Finlandisation for 25 odd years?
I'm sorry, but no, China doesn't need many resources to cripple NZ economically, I know this directly from my own line of work, its patheticaly easy, Germany during the wars, and France, showed the way on that.
More over why do you think NZ is now looking at pillar two of AUKUS and the Defence Minister is openly saying that NZ must do more on defence spending? Why say and do that if there was not a clear and viable threat to NZ? This is not about convivial G&T's with the chaps on the diplomatic circuit.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
An economic blockade does not take away your sovereignty or freedom. painful yes, but not as disastrously destructive as other options.
Yes totaly agree, they are dramatically different in scale, and neither can be written off as unlikely. My point was merely that economic blockade is probably more likely, but that would of course depend on what the agressor is attempting to acheive. If that agressor wanted to simply make an example of us or bring us to our knees then blockade would be sufficient, and surprisingly rapid one suspects. If on the other hand they wanted something we had, including our stratgic position...then we're farked!

Just to clarify, by economic blockade I was basically referring to denial of our SLOC...that could take many forms and could be sea-lanes quite some distance from our shores as commerial shipping, heavily pressured by the Insurance industry, would very quickly stop running thru contested areas and as a small player at the end of a very long supply chain NZ would be very quickly put in the 'too hard' basket. Even a partial blockade would have repercussions depending on what tradable goods were impacted. This is where NZ's 'sea blindness' is a major sticking point.
 
Last edited:

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Wow, people sure have very short and selective memories,especially if it dies not directly effect them.
When 9/11 happend, I was working as a deckhand on the Cairns Marlin fleet.
Our whole season was cancelled that day.
Cairns took a huge hit as Americans and just about everyone else were reluctant to fly long trips. I'm sure other industries also took a hit, then we have covid 19.
Tourism, one of Australia's biggest industries took a massive hit, as did education, another one of our biggest money earners. At the same time, the climate control thing was still in full swing, and many still called to the end of coal mining. Now we stop live sheep exports and cattle will go the same way.....we try our best to help those that want to cripple us.
As for other small matters, like the chemicals we need to treat sewerage, they come from China, we don't manufacture any of our own, it's things like these that hurt us. No need for military blockades, but if they happend in conjunction with economic sanctions, we would be in trouble.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
NZ also imports 633,555 tonnes of urea

.
NZ farming was doing reasonably well before we had any urea at all and that was before we had much of a manufacturing export market. While wool was a significant contributor then, I wood think that its contribution could very well rise with the shift to more natural fibers in the future.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Given the context of this site, and this threads recent topics on NZs relations with China I'd suggest that threat of or actual hostilities is kind of implied; im sorry you didn't understand this.

I'm at a loss to understand your post; why do you think NZ politicians have essentially pursued a policy of Finlandisation for 25 odd years?
I'm sorry, but no, China doesn't need many resources to cripple NZ economically, I know this directly from my own line of work, its patheticaly easy, Germany during the wars, and France, showed the way on that.
More over why do you think NZ is now looking at pillar two of AUKUS and the Defence Minister is openly saying that NZ must do more on defence spending? Why say and do that if there was not a clear and viable threat to NZ? This is not about convivial G&T's with the chaps on the diplomatic circuit.
Then you were not talking about an economic blockade, but a military one, which is what I suspected. This as I have said would inevitably involve other nations as it would be a act of war and as such. This would mean a significant dispersal of their resources and also mean that war time conditions would apply from a governing perspective. eg as per WW2. and we did survive 6 years of that.
It would mean government control of just about everything, this included what farmers produced, what manufactures made, what job you did and how much you got paid for it, what you could or could not buy, when and were you could travel, plus many other things and we survived quite well thank you. Ok no mochaccino's in the morning or new cars and cell phones, but life can be a hell of a lot of fun figuring out alternatives. One of the surprising things that happened to the NZ economy under these conditions during WW2 was that it was stronger at the end than at the start mainly due to our ability to feed other nations that were struggling to do this due to wartime conditions. At the end of WW2 the NZ government struck off the debt that the UK owed us, equivalent to the total NZ government 1939 budget.
I do think you under estimate the resilience of the NZ economy, sure the luxuries would go and everyone's life changes. I was brought up in the late 1940's and 1950's and we got electricity when I was 11 years old, Just turn of your power for a few days and think that we lived like that for years. I did not think we were deprived and still don't. There is a great resilience in this country when needed.
Your Finlandisation remark clearly shows that you have not read many if any of my post in the recent past as I have clearly stated why this has happened and the reasons for it, plus that I think that we can never foretell the future and should be prepared for possible aggression against us. In other words we need not just a robust economy, but a substansualy better funded and stronger military.
Sorry if this is a bit rambley but a large glass of pinot got in the way.
 
Last edited:

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
NZ farming was doing reasonably well before we had any urea at all and that was before we had much of a manufacturing export market. While wool was a significant contributor then, I wood think that its contribution could very well rise with the shift to more natural fibers in the future.
What happened was sheep farming became increasingly unprofitable so farmers switched to dairy which required more land capacity than clover, what we normally relied on, can provide.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
Then you were not talking about an economic blockade, but a military one, which is what I suspected.
Not sure China makes that distinction, I certainly don't, particularly when the objective is to force your will on another and that is my belief on what China's intentions are. We are in the opening stages of a war, it hasnt gone hot but it is certainly cold.

This as I have said would inevitably involve other nations as it would be a act of war and as such. This would mean a significant dispersal of their resources and also mean that war time conditions would apply from a governing perspective. eg as per WW2. and we did survive 6 years of that.
Germany and Japan did not have the ability to knock out NZs vital infrastructure with relative ease from day one with zero opposition though. Comparisons are useful, but they only go so far.

It would mean government control of just about everything, this included what farmers produced, what manufactures made, what job you did and how much you got paid for it, what you could or could not buy, when and were you could travel, plus many other things and we survived quite well thank you. Ok no mochaccino's in the morning or new cars and cell phones, but life can be a hell of a lot of fun figuring out alternatives. One of the surprising things that happened to the NZ economy under these conditions during WW2 was that it was stronger at the end than at the start mainly due to our ability to feed other nations that were struggling to do this due to wartime conditions. At the end of WW2 the NZ government struck off the debt that the UK owed us, equivalent to the total NZ government 1939 budget.
But we are not living in that time period, nor are we the same people capability wise and our economy is not the same. How are we to fix cars and more importantly agricultural machinery when the parts source in Japan or Taiwan has been destroyed?
There is a vast difference between a 1936 Leyland Truck and a modern one; one you might be able to fix with skills and manufacturing capability commonly available in 1945, the other is more or less impossible now without outside support . Don't belive me? Go into MOTAT or Ferrymead have a look, and ask to look under the bonnet of some of their gear and compare it to modern vehicles that comprise the modern vehicle fleet.
Hell, keeping just some of what's left of that era in running order is near impossible due to lack of skills.

I do think you under estimate the resilience of the NZ economy, sure the luxuries would go and everyone's life changes. I was brought up in the late 1940's and 1950's and we got electricity when I was 11 years old, Just turn of your power for a few days and think that we lived like that for years. I did not think we were deprived and still don't. There is a great resilience in this country when needed.
No offence, but this is just nonsense, we are not living in the 1950s; it not a question of personnel resilience within a normal environment, but a question of skills, existing infrastructure and lack of local manufacturing capability and supply chains from manufacturing sources overseas in an abnormal situation.


Your Finlandisation remark clearly shows that you have not read many if any of my post in the recent past as I have clearly stated why this has happened and the reasons for it, plus that I think that we can never foretell the future and should be prepared for possible aggression against us. In other words we need not just a robust economy, but a substansualy better funded and stronger military.
Maybe I have misunderstood you, but I do think you might have missed some detail of what's going on and the natureof the opposition/enemy.

Sorry if this is a bit rambley but a large glass of pinot got in the way.
Mt Difficulty Roaring Meg; best standby Pinot out there imo.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is a vast difference between a 1936 Leyland Truck and a modern one; one you might be able to fix with skills and manufacturing capability commonly available in 1945, the other is more or less impossible now without outside support .
Yep things do progress, but you would be serprised what skills are available and can be used. For instance my son who does agg contracting had the engine management system of his biggest tractor crap out during covid and a new part was some months away at that time, a local electronics guy fixed it and it is still running. Cost more but worked. Nothing is impossible in the field of human endeavor if you put your mind to it.
Maybe I have misunderstood you, but I do think you might have missed some detail of what's going on and the nature of the opposition/enemy.
Not really just being PC or polite to China. they hate to be critiqued.
But we are not living in that time period, nor are we the same people capability wise and our economy is not the same. How are we to fix cars and more importantly agricultural machinery when the parts source in Japan or Taiwan has been destroyed?
A surprising amount of agg machinery is made in NZ and most modern cars(which would in any case not be considered important) last a significant period of time, My sons Volvo truck(registered for 26 tonnes ) has done over 1.5million K's with no significant repairs. It belong to Farmers transport before he got it. The 1936 Leyland might do 10% of that
Germany and Japan did not have the ability to knock out NZs vital infrastructure with relative ease from day one with zero opposition though. Comparisons are useful, but they only go so far.
Yep, because they had bigger fish to fry, the same would be the case with China as I have already pointed out. the next question would be why would China single out NZ and how could they without drawing in at least Australia and by default the US and the UK? and how would they block the Tasman?
What happened was sheep farming became increasingly unprofitable so farmers switched to dairy which required more land capacity than clover, what we normally relied on, can provide.
Yes it did, however what screwed the economy before that was the UK joining the Common market and severe restrictions place on the import by the UK on our dairy and meat, as at 1974 we had the 6th highest GDP per person in the world and I believe at one stage earier we got to 3rd. My eldest son was in dairy for a number of years and urea is not the only way to achieve production, it just happens to be the cheapest and easiest. This happened in the early 1970's, the wool price crashed in the late 70's and early 1980's.
As an after thought, I believe that one of the reasons our economy has dropped so low ( from memory we now rate in the 20's) is that we have succumbed to bean counter itis and due to a lack of courage to take risks have missed too many opportunities, To learn more on this I would suggest reading W Edwards Deming and or Robert Townsend, very enlightening. Thought it is some years since I have, I did find Townsend easier to read.
 
Last edited:

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
All-of-govt information security facility for Whenuapai - Inside Government NZ

This facility will be constructed at the Whenuapai Base and will be managed/ or operated on behalf of defence and other Government departments by GCSB. Considering that organisations operations the facility should be very secure.
Secret squirrels have to have their database somewhere secure, but Whenuapai is a risk because of all the housing developments around the base. In the end the nimby's will force the RNZAF out of Whenuapai with all their whinging.

The Newsroom article Defence Minister: 'Independence is not isolationism' is now out from behind the paywall.

“If there had been a major cyclone in any of the islands at the same time as Gabrielle, we would have struggled to provide the level of response that our Pacific neighbours would typically expect: that reflects the impact of attrition, but it also ought to cause us to reflect that these cyclone events aren't going to get less frequent, and are probably going to get more intense.'

That is among the reasons the minister has sought to fast-track a review of New Zealand’s defence policy announced by his predecessor Peeni Henare, initially due to report back in mid-2024.

Little is still awaiting advice - due to land within weeks - on what can be done to expedite the process, but says he is keen on starting a public discussion about our security challenges, and the potential responses, ahead of October’s election.
The retention problems have been covered here already. It's good that he's trying to expedite the review process and having the public discussion prior to the election. That will hopefully make defence an election issue at best and at least get it some air time.
Little notes, our trans-Tasman neighbours are far from alone in ramping up their military spending, with Japan and the Philippines among Asia-Pacific nations putting more money into defence.

“Even when you look at what China is doing and their hugely significant additional spend on their military capability over the last 20 years, with a much, much larger military, and particularly maritime capability, we can't stand aside and say, 'Nothing to see here and we'll kind of just carry on what we're doing' - it is a debate we have to have as a country.”

Little is relatively candid - at least by the standard of New Zealand ministers - when it comes to Beijing’s aspirations and the consequences for our country.

“China's ambitions in the Pacific and around the rest of the world, well, they're on a path and they want to achieve those sorts of things. The way in which they achieve them is something we need to reflect on, and the way they conduct themselves, and the effect that that has on our relationships with our old friends and allies, we need to think about that as well.” [emphasis mine]

That debate has been accelerated thanks to confirmation that New Zealand is considering whether to join the non-nuclear aspects of the Aukus security pact between Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States.
Well at least we have a DEFMIN who acknowledge the issues and is being upfront about them. He is well informed on the CCP/PRC because he's also the secret squirrel Minister. Whether or not this will translate into anything worthwhile remains to be seen.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
First off when I worked for two different departments private data was not to be shared between agencies or to be seen to be. Therefore it could not share the same facility. There were big concerns about it. This sounds too much like a fusion centre.
Second across a range of equipment our partners place min. Security requirements. One of those is a min. Distance from a perimeter fence if there is a neighbouring occupied property. So much so that a recent housing development next to a major camp has required everything close to the fence be picked up and moved to another part of camp. So instant loss of storage space due to council not taking into account defence needs.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
From some of the msm articles posted on here of late (eg over the last two pages) quoting the new DefMin he seems to be cognizant of the increase in maritime capabilities including maritime threats within our wider region and seems to be hinting that he would like to see NZ doing more.

For example in this article "He said that although New Zealand had made some investments already, the government needed to consider more, especially for the country's navy".

And in this article "The deal’s centrepiece - Australia’s acquisition of nuclear-powered submarines - has attracted most attention, along with its eye-popping $400 billion price tag. But as Little notes, our trans-Tasman neighbours are far from alone in ramping up their military spending, with Japan and the Philippines among Asia-Pacific nations putting more money into defence. “Even when you look at what China is doing and their hugely significant additional spend on their military capability over the last 20 years, with a much, much larger military, and particularly maritime capability, we can't stand aside and say, 'Nothing to see here and we'll kind of just carry on what we're doing' - it is a debate we have to have as a country.”"

In the same article (as well as others) DefMin Andrew Little is reported as wanting to fast-track the review of New Zealand’s defence policy (and IIRC including the Future Force Design Principles).

Now of course what the DefMin wants (or supports) would still need to be discussed at Cabinet level (and in order to gain funding) so nothing is a given. Nor is it clear what he means in terms of investing more in for example the Navy. For example is he talking about capabilities or the basics like personnel, pay and conditions and accommodation, infrastructure, opportunities for exercising and training with overseas counterparts and so on ... or all of the above?

An obvious major initiative would be to strengthen (increase) personnel numbers across the three services (including pay and conditions and accommodation etc) as having a larger critical mass would reduce outputs and capability failures. There really does need to see a significant step change in this space otherwise what follows (eg capabilities) would still be both "token" and unsustainable when there are competing demands or pressures (deployments, attrition etc).

By way of example and in general terms, for the Army the reliance on the Reserve Forces to strengthen the Regular Forces on deployments needs reassessing as it is no longer for for purpose (imo) and hasn't been for a long time now. The current model (two RF battalions dates back to the 1950's/60's and NZ contributing force elements in SE Asia to integrate into allied structures) needs to see change because of demands and pressures for the Army to deploy now and in the future (potentially to multiple locations overseas for combat/support and supporting international training initiatives eg Iraq recently, UK currently regards Ukraine) and as well as demands and pressures on the home front (including the South Pacific) in terms of HADR, civil defence emergency response and counter terrorism etc).

Ideally then and although the emphasis needs to be on NZ's maritime sphere, the issue of the Army Regular Force numbers needs further addressing/growing compared to even what the DCP19 was advocating under previous DefMin Ron Mark (and of course this would be over time to grow numbers and experience so this is a longer term project etc). For the Reserves perhaps fortuitously the Govt is acknowledging nowadays there is the need to strengthen Reserve Forces in the regions and there appears to already have been some thinking on this (covered previously in this thread last year), as well in recent times with the February cyclones reinforcing this (again mentioned in some msm articles). Presumably the Defence Review will provide some guidance and options and perhaps this could end up being a shorter or medium term project (after all this would be a mix of new personnel and existing experienced personnel when leaving the forces etc). Again pay and conditions are important here to ensure there is sufficient interest to sustain this, especially in terms of balance when managing their civilian job prospects. It has been suggested by others previously that one initiative could be, if additional funding to sustain this is problematic due to competing funding demands across govt let alone defence, could perhaps be to institute a form of tax credit whereby personnel could claim back a portion of their tax payments either annually (could make a nice bonus to look forward to each year of service) or perhaps on a semi-regular basis to assist with cost of living demands?

For Air Force it seems to be clear that a loss of critical mass occurred with the disbanding of the air combat force back in 2001, in terms of personnel numbers as a whole, but also by way of the ACF also providing pathways for senior pilots and maintainers to move to other areas such as the airlift/air transport or maritime patrol fields (and particularly nowadays, to work for contractors as civilians back on base ensuring that important institutional knowledge and experience is retained and passed on to the younger generations coming through). So ideally the area of ACF would be addressed, as a longer term project, because of the range of benefits that would result across the spectrum as mentioned let alone for capability and whole of defence support reasons, but also politically/diplomatically it would signify to NZ's partners and allies that NZ is taking its defence obligations seriously and would surely be welcomed. As a recruitment tool it would be invaluable.

In the short (eg 2025-ish) to medium term (eg pre-2030) presumably supplementing existing capabilities would both strengthen the RNZAF's capabilities (increase critical mass to sustain deployments) and be easier to achieve due to the experience already existing (save for increasing and retaining personnel numbers over time). There are plenty of do-ables here for example enhancing the medium utility helicopter fleet (eg additional NH90's or supplementary heavy lift helicopters), which would ensure better sustainment of NZ/South Pacfiic HADR and overseas Army deployments. Certainly another two P-8 Poseidon's would ensure at least concurrent deployments (certainly another four would guarantee that and allow for additional contingencies), and politically/diplomatically it would be a win for the Govt. Additional C-130J-30's would round things off and if the future 757 replacement scope were to include both ramped and non-ramped types that would finally give the NZDF the strategic airlift capabilities it requires to match the lift and distances it needs to work with. None of this is excessive (if anything it is the absolute minimum), if we were to be taking things to the next level these numbers would rise again and to counter the threats the NZDF could also encounter would perhaps have provision for the likes of EW and/or maritime strike and/or early warning platforms or capabilities - perhaps these could be put into the longer term projects/options (post 2030)?

For Navy, although this is an area that does need strengthening (like the Air Force their combat capabilities have reduced in recent times) there does seem to be a recurring pattern of ongoing (years and years of) not having sufficient personnel/skillsets to ensure all vessels can put to sea, so this area needs addressing as a priority. So perhaps or ideally they also need larger critical mass to ensure enough vessels can be put to sea (and supported) so that there is coverage, concurrent coverage, when a critical issue develops. I think DCP19 suggested a fairly reasonable (but minimum) navy structure consisting of two sea-lift vessels, Pacific and Southern Ocean patrol vessels and auxiliaries ... but what is missing is enhancing the Combat side of things.
 
Last edited:

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Part 2 (due to word limit).

Longer term the ANZAC Frigates need replacing and out in the "real world" it seems only former DefMin Wayne Mapp is suggesting placing the replacement Frigate orders "now" (if not before "now") to ensure delivery within a 10 year time-frame due to the tensions ramping up in the Indo/Asia/Pacific.

Like some others here I still think this area especially needs addressing and supplementing (eg perhaps ideally in the 2030's a "hi/lo" mix for example something equating the Type 26 (or CSC or Hunter or FFG(X)/FFG-62 etc) for deployments into the Indo-Pacific and also something equating the Type 31 (or AH140 etc) for regional presence and escorting.

Although I'm really concerned about the short-to-medium term and suggest NZ needs an interim combat capability asap to supplement the two (only) ANZAC Frigates. A high-end new build (eg T26/deriviative) could still be years away eg at least ten years (or more?) but I'm wondering whether NZ could look at the UK/Polish T31/A140 projects, but even still it may not be until the late 2020's at the earliest?

Another "wildcard"but short term option could be to look at the UK disposing two of its Type 23 Frigates as they are pretty much available "now". HMS Montrose has just been decommissioned and HMS Monmouth was decommissioned in 2021. Does anyone know their likely fate? There was some speculation that Turkey is interested but this report isn't confirming this (at this point), and in fact seems to be refering to all the Type 23's in general being available in time as the new Type 26's are introduced into service in due course. Also unclear if Chile interested?

So would this be a good idea or not, as a short term/interim solution? Presumably if NZ were to acquire the vessels "as is" after a minor refit/refurbishment they could perhaps be ready within 1-2 years? Crewing numbers are similar to the ANZAC's but still additonal/new personnel would need to be found. Perhaps they could come from a mix of the OPV's remaining laid up, enticing/incentivising experienced RN personnel to transfer to the RNZN or incentivising former RNZN personnel to re-enlist up again?

Another option, which could take a bit longer eg perhaps 2-4 years (and thus give additional time to recruit/re-enlist personnel) is to undertake a similar upgrade that LM are undertaking for the three Chilean Type 23's (eg CMS330) plus add the sensor/countermeasure systems that LM installed onto the RNZN ANZAC FSU, and/or the capabilities LM designed for the Chilean T23's which have the advantage of LM already designing/integrating these systems, thus mitigating risk and cost blow-outs (which happened with the LM/NZ ANZAC FSU upgrade)? As well as refurbishing the engines etc. Note that the HMS Montrose and Monmouth were to under-go another upgrade, which was cancelled when the UK MoD Integrated Review deemed them surplus, my point being these vessels were still meant to have additional years of life in them. Of course there would be some complications such as different main gun/ammo and resulting different supply chain requirements but there are also similarities eg CAMM and RN-RNZN operational similarities that may help offset such issues. As another thought another option could be (if space/weight allowed) to refit the ex-ANZAC Mk41 VLS's which would allow a variety of missile systems to counter new threats and provide for additonal capabilities (eg ASROC or ESSM or better etc) and/or quad-pack Seaceptor.

Perhaps not an "elegant" clean-sheet solution all up, but still the T23 is still a great capability (compared to what we have now) with space/weight/potential to enhance NZ's naval combat capabilities and it provides a great political/diplomatic signal to NZ's partners and allies that it is taking maritime defence a great deal seriously that it has been. Plus as an interim solution until longer term capability decisions can be made, acquired and built which probably won't be for another decade and honesty can NZ afford to wait that long? Politically/dipomatically I would say no it can't ...
 
Last edited:
Top