NZDF General discussion thread

[kiwipatriot69]

In this coalition government trade offs for support will be made for key objectives. If support is not forthwith for your policy (Defence aquisition) it may be deferred or a less preferred option given as the only alternative. Who knows - No one wants a "log jam" further down the track if you have to wait.

Aren't we already having a log jam of sorts? Manawanui arriving in a week or so, Aotearoa in six months, the Frigates coming out of upgrade, seems like the Navy is going to have a heavier than usual workload. Agreed, and the longer you wait, the more it may cost.

 

[steve33]

Army exercise suspended after SAS trooper dies after training incident

Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters confirmed the two-week exercise, which also involved the United States Army, had been suspended as a result of the accident.

He said the media's questions around whether NZDF personnel were put through too rigorous training were better answered by experts.

Doesn't surprise me that the New Zealand media would ask such a stupid question the reality is war is hard so you train hard these guys and girls didn't join a knitting class.

RIP to the NZSAS member.

 

[Whiplash34]

Sad news when I found this out this morning.

Rest In Peace Nick, I hoisted a beer for you tonight.

Condolences to the family and to Nick’s team mates.

 

[steve33]

Army training accident: SAS soldier died after jumping from helicopter and falling height of several storeys - source

It was reported that the NZSAS member was jumping from a helicopter to a roof and missed the roof falling to his death.

I am not an expert in this sort of thing is it normal to have a gap between the helicopter and the roof which people, have to jump across to get to the roof ?

I would have thought they would have had the helicopter over the roof so you could jump straight down.

 

[ngatimozart]

Army training accident: SAS soldier died after jumping from helicopter and falling height of several storeys - source

It was reported that the NZSAS member was jumping from a helicopter to a roof and missed the roof falling to his death.

I am not an expert in this sort of thing is it normal to have a gap between the helicopter and the roof which people, have to jump across to get to the roof ?

I would have thought they would have had the helicopter over the roof so you could jump straight down.

It's the NZ Herald and I would be somewhat careful about it's claim surrounding the cause of the accident, at this present point in time. Nothing official has been stated by NZDF regarding the circumstances of the accident, and as such I would counsel caution until the facts of the matter are known.

 

[steve33]

It's the NZ Herald and I would be somewhat careful about it's claim surrounding the cause of the accident, at this present point in time. Nothing official has been stated by NZDF regarding the circumstances of the accident, and as such I would counsel caution until the facts of the matter are known.

Good point it will all come out in time it was sad to hear of it happening it is the 2nd death in a couple of years but it is a very high risk they push it to the limit in training.

 

[Whiplash34]

Army training accident: SAS soldier died after jumping from helicopter and falling height of several storeys - source

It was reported that the NZSAS member was jumping from a helicopter to a roof and missed the roof falling to his death.

I am not an expert in this sort of thing is it normal to have a gap between the helicopter and the roof which people, have to jump across to get to the roof ?

I would have thought they would have had the helicopter over the roof so you could jump straight down.

Steve33,

I am aware of the circumstances around this incident but I was not there at the time and therefore I do not want to say too much until the Police have finished their investigation for the coroner.

What I will say is this (based off my own experience):

There are pretty much two common ways to exfil from an helo airframe onto a structure....1) Roping / Fast rope....2) Hover jumping.

If you have a look at a Blackhawk helo, you will see the main wheels and landing gear structures stick out from the side of the fuselage.

This can under some circumstances, create a gap between the airframe and whatever you may be stepping out / off on to.

Furthermore, if you have any experience with NVG/NODS, you will know that when operating under them, you loose a great deal of depth perception.

Anyway, I’ll leave it there.

Let’s wait out until the coroner releases their findings (which from what I understand, is generally a slow but thorough process).

 

[steve33]

Steve33,

I am aware of the circumstances around this incident but I was not there at the time and therefore I do not want to say too much until the Police have finished their investigation for the coroner.

What I will say is this (based off my own experience):

There are pretty much two common ways to exfil from an helo airframe onto a structure....1) Roping / Fast rope....2) Hover jumping.

If you have a look at a Blackhawk helo, you will see the main wheels and landing gear structures stick out from the side of the fuselage.

This can under some circumstances, create a gap between the airframe and whatever you may be stepping out / off on to.

Furthermore, if you have any experience with NVG/NODS, you will know that when operating under them, you loose a great deal of depth perception.

Anyway, I’ll leave it there.

Let’s wait out until the coroner releases their findings (which from what I understand, is generally a slow but thorough process).

Thanks for the reply it explained a lot about the helicopters and the night vision goggles.

Yes the coroners reports do take time all will be revealed it is just gutting to have lost two serving SAS in the last couple of years in training accidents as well as Steve Askin in the helicopter crash fighting the fires these guys don't live their lives wrapped up in cotton wool they live on the edge and things do happen it goes with the turf as they say but it's still bitter pill when it does.
cheers

 

[ngatimozart]

DEF MIN speech to the 2019 Pacific Environmental Security Forum. NZ was the host along with the US INDOPACCOM.

"Over time there will be an increased requirement for our Defence and other security forces to respond with humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, more search and rescue missions, and potentially stability operations. All of this means we need to think about capability." Does this mean that the current NZG will invest more in capability?

"Quite often when I talk about this matter, I’m immediately challenged by people who want to confront me on climate change. I tell them, I’m not here to argue what’s causing climate change or how we’re going to resolve it, what I say to them, and I’ll say to you, is that things are changing now. Our women and men in uniform who crew our vessels, fly our aircraft or operate on the land, are closer to the elements than most civilians who talk about climate change ever will be. They absolutely depend on a thorough and professional understanding of meteorology, the climate, weather patterns and how it’s changing. We have had to adapt our operating procedures so that we can operate in that sphere." We need money, proper capabilities, people and resources to do that.

"At the South Pacific Defence Minister’s Meeting we were talking about conflict and the potential for it to occur. And I know what some people say, how does climate change cause conflict? Well it’s all to do with competition for food and resources, and I’d like to highlight a couple of things which highlight the potential for conflict in the future.

Firstly I’d like to talk about jellyfish. There is a jellyfish in Tonga which is a delicacy. At the meeting the Tongan Minister of Defence Lord Ma’afu talked to us about this jelly fish. It has disappeared from its natural habitat and the fishermen have gone looking for it. This raises the interesting question, what if they find that in someone else’s water? What if they start harvesting from an area that is not theirs? Who then does the jellyfish belong to?

Rice paddies were another example; there is an area in Fiji which always was able to grow rice. Today, it does not. The sea has inundated that area and now it is full of salt water. So the food source has gone. So what are the consequences of that?

Erosion is yet another example; people think that when land falls away you just pick up the population and find them a new home. Into another tribes area? We saw it in PNG when I happened to be there during the earthquake. A whole tract of land fell into a valley meaning a village had to move. There are people in this world who think it’s easy to move one tribe onto another tribes land. Pacific Island people understand you cannot just do that. First there needs to be some conversation and it needs to be worked through in a respectful manner.

The Fijian Minister of Defence, Minister Seruiratu, shared the story of his own village which has had to redo its sea wall three times due to rising sea levels. This is a small village with limited economic resources, and for the third time it has to rebuild its sea wall to stop it from disappearing into the ocean. All these things are worth thinking about, because eventually one might conclude that villages like this will need to be relocated.

With food sources being scarce, fish stocks disappearing, and land becoming more precious, this has potential to create conflict. For us in the military and security sector, these are real challenges, and they have the potential implications which I’m hopeful the great minds in this room will talk about, and come up with some solutions for us politicians to move forward and implement." This last part is important and it's not just within Oceania that we will have problems arising, but from without as others come to plunder the dwindling resources from surrounding ocean that feeds us. What do we have to prevent that? Very little close to nothing and that is why NZ needs to build up it's maritime capabilities both air and naval in surveillance an combat. Four P-8 Poseidons and two frigates are not
enough. It is far to little.

Speech to the Pacific Environmental Security Forum

 

[Simon Ewing Jarvie]

DEF MIN speech to the 2019 Pacific Environmental Security Forum. NZ was the host along with the US INDOPACCOM.

"Over time there will be an increased requirement for our Defence and other security forces to respond with humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, more search and rescue missions, and potentially stability operations. All of this means we need to think about capability." Does this mean that the current NZG will invest more in capability?

"Quite often when I talk about this matter, I’m immediately challenged by people who want to confront me on climate change. I tell them, I’m not here to argue what’s causing climate change or how we’re going to resolve it, what I say to them, and I’ll say to you, is that things are changing now. Our women and men in uniform who crew our vessels, fly our aircraft or operate on the land, are closer to the elements than most civilians who talk about climate change ever will be. They absolutely depend on a thorough and professional understanding of meteorology, the climate, weather patterns and how it’s changing. We have had to adapt our operating procedures so that we can operate in that sphere." We need money, proper capabilities, people and resources to do that.

"At the South Pacific Defence Minister’s Meeting we were talking about conflict and the potential for it to occur. And I know what some people say, how does climate change cause conflict? Well it’s all to do with competition for food and resources, and I’d like to highlight a couple of things which highlight the potential for conflict in the future.

Firstly I’d like to talk about jellyfish. There is a jellyfish in Tonga which is a delicacy. At the meeting the Tongan Minister of Defence Lord Ma’afu talked to us about this jelly fish. It has disappeared from its natural habitat and the fishermen have gone looking for it. This raises the interesting question, what if they find that in someone else’s water? What if they start harvesting from an area that is not theirs? Who then does the jellyfish belong to?

Rice paddies were another example; there is an area in Fiji which always was able to grow rice. Today, it does not. The sea has inundated that area and now it is full of salt water. So the food source has gone. So what are the consequences of that?

Erosion is yet another example; people think that when land falls away you just pick up the population and find them a new home. Into another tribes area? We saw it in PNG when I happened to be there during the earthquake. A whole tract of land fell into a valley meaning a village had to move. There are people in this world who think it’s easy to move one tribe onto another tribes land. Pacific Island people understand you cannot just do that. First there needs to be some conversation and it needs to be worked through in a respectful manner.

The Fijian Minister of Defence, Minister Seruiratu, shared the story of his own village which has had to redo its sea wall three times due to rising sea levels. This is a small village with limited economic resources, and for the third time it has to rebuild its sea wall to stop it from disappearing into the ocean. All these things are worth thinking about, because eventually one might conclude that villages like this will need to be relocated.

With food sources being scarce, fish stocks disappearing, and land becoming more precious, this has potential to create conflict. For us in the military and security sector, these are real challenges, and they have the potential implications which I’m hopeful the great minds in this room will talk about, and come up with some solutions for us politicians to move forward and implement." This last part is important and it's not just within Oceania that we will have problems arising, but from without as others come to plunder the dwindling resources from surrounding ocean that feeds us. What do we have to prevent that? Very little close to nothing and that is why NZ needs to build up it's maritime capabilities both air and naval in surveillance an combat. Four P-8 Poseidons and two frigates are not
enough. It is far to little.

Speech to the Pacific Environmental Security Forum

Ron Mark is having to pitch all his big ticket defence capability asks in terms that the Greens will buy into. Nothing is going to change re that in the foreseeable future. I'm hearing that veterans will get a lot more in the 30 May budget than Defence will.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ron Mark is having to pitch all his big ticket defence capability asks in terms that the Greens will buy into. Nothing is going to change re that in the foreseeable future. I'm hearing that veterans will get a lot more in the 30 May budget than Defence will.

Got to be honest, veterans have been short changed out for a long time, so that is a good thing. They also need to give the nuclear test veterans a fair deal as well. Successive govts have treated them like pariahs, especially the OP GRAPPLE ones, by playing the waiting game: waiting for them to die off. There is sufficient medical evidence to suggest that the veterans descendants have been affected by the nuke radiation as well due to genetic damage and successive NZ govts won't have a bar of it, yet these veterans were ordered to OP GRAPPLE by the NZ govts of the day and ordered to stand on deck as the weapons were tested. It's into the second generation now (grandkids). Gets right up my goat.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

One thing is for certain in a conflict with the mother of all superpowers. MOTHER NATURE wins every time. All we can do when dealing with the effects of climate change is adapt and change. Sticking our heads in the sand hoping the problem will go away wont keep the tide from crashing up our arse.

Lets hope that more of anything will be appropriated to the NZDF to help deal with the ever changing world we all live in. More money, ships, aircraft, infrastructure will be all welcomed.

 

[milliGal]

DEF MIN speech to the 2019 Pacific Environmental Security Forum. NZ was the host along with the US INDOPACCOM.

"Over time there will be an increased requirement for our Defence and other security forces to respond with humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, more search and rescue missions, and potentially stability operations. All of this means we need to think about capability." Does this mean that the current NZG will invest more in capability?

"Quite often when I talk about this matter, I’m immediately challenged by people who want to confront me on climate change. I tell them, I’m not here to argue what’s causing climate change or how we’re going to resolve it, what I say to them, and I’ll say to you, is that things are changing now. Our women and men in uniform who crew our vessels, fly our aircraft or operate on the land, are closer to the elements than most civilians who talk about climate change ever will be. They absolutely depend on a thorough and professional understanding of meteorology, the climate, weather patterns and how it’s changing. We have had to adapt our operating procedures so that we can operate in that sphere." We need money, proper capabilities, people and resources to do that.

"At the South Pacific Defence Minister’s Meeting we were talking about conflict and the potential for it to occur. And I know what some people say, how does climate change cause conflict? Well it’s all to do with competition for food and resources, and I’d like to highlight a couple of things which highlight the potential for conflict in the future.

Firstly I’d like to talk about jellyfish. There is a jellyfish in Tonga which is a delicacy. At the meeting the Tongan Minister of Defence Lord Ma’afu talked to us about this jelly fish. It has disappeared from its natural habitat and the fishermen have gone looking for it. This raises the interesting question, what if they find that in someone else’s water? What if they start harvesting from an area that is not theirs? Who then does the jellyfish belong to?

Rice paddies were another example; there is an area in Fiji which always was able to grow rice. Today, it does not. The sea has inundated that area and now it is full of salt water. So the food source has gone. So what are the consequences of that?

Erosion is yet another example; people think that when land falls away you just pick up the population and find them a new home. Into another tribes area? We saw it in PNG when I happened to be there during the earthquake. A whole tract of land fell into a valley meaning a village had to move. There are people in this world who think it’s easy to move one tribe onto another tribes land. Pacific Island people understand you cannot just do that. First there needs to be some conversation and it needs to be worked through in a respectful manner.

The Fijian Minister of Defence, Minister Seruiratu, shared the story of his own village which has had to redo its sea wall three times due to rising sea levels. This is a small village with limited economic resources, and for the third time it has to rebuild its sea wall to stop it from disappearing into the ocean. All these things are worth thinking about, because eventually one might conclude that villages like this will need to be relocated.

With food sources being scarce, fish stocks disappearing, and land becoming more precious, this has potential to create conflict. For us in the military and security sector, these are real challenges, and they have the potential implications which I’m hopeful the great minds in this room will talk about, and come up with some solutions for us politicians to move forward and implement." This last part is important and it's not just within Oceania that we will have problems arising, but from without as others come to plunder the dwindling resources from surrounding ocean that feeds us. What do we have to prevent that? Very little close to nothing and that is why NZ needs to build up it's maritime capabilities both air and naval in surveillance an combat. Four P-8 Poseidons and two frigates are not
enough. It is far to little.

Speech to the Pacific Environmental Security Forum

I have been impressed with Ron Mark, and think he is one of our more informed and capable defence ministers for a while. One does get the impression that he has a tough time selling his defence projects to his coalition partners in cabinet though.

A recent interview with him on defsec gave the impression that the funds may be diverted from the defence estate renewal program to fund acquisitions in the shorter term. A bit of a shame as it seems like much of the estate is in dire need of some upgrades. I am very curious to see what the upcoming capability review prioritises. Not much longer to wait now, surely.

 

[MrConservative]

The opposition wants feedback on its International Relations Policy including Defence on questions 7, 8 and 9.

International Affairs - Discussion Document

You can read on ISSUU or download the pdf of the discussion document.

I suggest that if you want to encourage changes to the current defence posture get in now.

My first missive will be that they will have to lift CapEx from 2020-2035 well beyond the $20B mooted in DWP15.

My hot tip is to be concise, direct, pragmatic and keep it to a 2 page "Janet and John" summary.

In review the Defence related questions are:

7. National proposes to commit to the significant modernisation and investment into the Defence Force that was outlined in the 2016 Defence White Paper.

We want your thoughts on the following:

• What other areas do we need to be supporting within our Defence Force?


8. National believes New Zealand should be prepared to act to defend international stability
and regional security where we can.

We want your thoughts on the following:

• What role should New Zealand play internationally when it comes to our Defence Force?

9. National proposes to recommit ourselves to building defence partnerships across the world to better serve the protection of our national interests.

We want your thoughts on the following:

• What partners should New Zealand seek enhanced defence agreements with?
• What factors should New Zealand look at to improve how we focus our defence efforts internationally?


The thread here may be a good place to tease out some of the questions before one commits to paper with ones answers.

 

[Catalina]

Thank you all for the interesting posts above.

Could some please explain more about the South Pacific Defence Minister’s Meeting thank you?

Which countries attended?

Also may I ask if Australia (and NZ) have offered security treaties to any other Pacific Island nations as was offered to and turned down by Vanuatu this year.

Thank you always for the interesting discussions.

 

[milliGal]

Budget documents have been leaked and surprisingly defence appears to be the biggest winner. $1.3 billion has supposedly been earmarked for the purchase of new assets.

It seems there may be reason to get excited about the upcoming capability review after all. I would imagine the majority of this funding will be for the FAMC project, but hopefully it goes beyond that. I'm hoping they go for a mixed A400M/C295W fleet, as just getting new C130J's wouldn't offer much of a leap on existing capability.

 

[Gibbo]

Budget documents have been leaked and surprisingly defence appears to be the biggest winner. $1.3 billion has supposedly been earmarked for the purchase of new assets.

It seems there may be reason to get excited about the upcoming capability review after all. I would imagine the majority of this funding will be for the FAMC project, but hopefully it goes beyond that. I'm hoping they go for a mixed A400M/C295W fleet, as C130J's wouldn't offer much of a leap on existing capability.

Hmmm, National not helping Defence by parodying the Greens in the linked article!

Now let me get my envelope out to do a few simplistic calculations... based on this as a starting point: Exclusive - Germany plans to buy six Lockheed C-130J aircraft for 900 million euros - Reuters

900 Euro for 6 = 150 euro per a/c (just a nominal indicative value) = NZ$256M per aircraft. Assuming that $1.3B is going to go just on Herc replacement then to get a spend of around that much you;re looking at 5 x $256M = $1.28B

My crystal ball says 5 x C130J... just an educated guess!

 

[milliGal]

Hmmm, National not helping Defence by parodying the Greens in the linked article!

Now let me get my envelope out to do a few simplistic calculations... based on this as a starting point: Exclusive - Germany plans to buy six Lockheed C-130J aircraft for 900 million euros - Reuters

900 Euro for 6 = 150 euro per a/c (just a nominal indicative value) = NZ$256M per aircraft. Assuming that $1.3B is going to go just on Herc replacement then to get a spend of around that much you;re looking at 5 x $256M = $1.28B

My crystal ball says 5 x C130J... just an educated guess!

Haha that math does work out to be pretty spot on. I would not be surprised if you turn out to be right.

 

[MrConservative]

Hmmm, National not helping Defence by parodying the Greens in the linked article!

The idiot that is Simon Bridges shooting his mouth off without thinking through the consequences just to score a hit. The week they released their International Relations Policy and NZ First actually following through with National's Defence spending. But no Simon and his idiot mate Boris McLay reinforcing why even the National party faithful don't think he is fit to be leader.

Now let me get my envelope out to do a few simplistic calculations... based on this as a starting point: Exclusive - Germany plans to buy six Lockheed C-130J aircraft for 900 million euros - Reuters

900 Euro for 6 = 150 euro per a/c (just a nominal indicative value) = NZ$256M per aircraft. Assuming that $1.3B is going to go just on Herc replacement then to get a spend of around that much you;re looking at 5 x $256M = $1.28B

My crystal ball says 5 x C130J... just an educated guess!

Fairly reasonable guess Gibbo.

 

[MrConservative]

Overview of the Vote – Defence Force

The Minister of Defence is responsible for Defence Force appropriations in Vote Defence Force,
totalling just over $3,312 million for the 2018/19 financial year ($4,166 million for the 2019/20
financial year)

This includes just over $2,670 million ($2,837 million) for departmental output expenses covering
the following:

 a total of just under $2,164 million on Air ($840 million) ($907 million), Army ($871 million)
($916 million) and Navy ($453 million) ($493 million) capabilities prepared for joint operations to
provide the Government with a range of military forces to protect and advance the security and
interests of New Zealand. These are held at appropriate levels of capability and preparedness to
protect New Zealand's territorial sovereignty and to contribute to regional and global security
efforts. Most of these forces will also contribute to a range of services to other government
departments and the New Zealand community when not committed to operations overseas, and

 a total of just over $506 million ($521 million) on Multi-Category Appropriations (MCA) for Advice
to the Government, Operations Contributing to New Zealand's Security, Stability and Interests,
and the Protection of New Zealand and New Zealanders.

Of the total output expenses, just under $17 million ($19 million) is expected to be funded from
third-party revenue (Revenue Department and Revenue Other) in 2018/19. The remainder is funded
by Revenue Crown.

There is a capital expenditure appropriation of just over $641 million ($1,330 million) for the
purchase of assets.

The Minister of Defence is also responsible for a capital injection of nearly $155 million ($568
million) to the New Zealand Defence Force.

The Minister for Veterans is responsible for Veterans' Affairs appropriations in Vote Defence Force
totalling just over $128 million ($125 million) for the 2018/19 financial year.