NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

Since it's down to the final of the Rugby World Cup, what hasn't appeared to make the news is that an International Defence Rugby Cup between such services as the RAF, RN, Tongan Defence Services, Peoples Liberation Army (China), ADF, British Army, NZDF, Australian Federal Police, PNG and Samoan Police was being played in Sydney since 1st October. NZDF - Another victory for NZDF Rugby
The four semi finalist have been found and the semis are being played in Auckland. Details, venues, dates etc are at this link NZDF - Top Four Defence Rugby teams come to New Zealand Unfortunately from a Kiwi POV NZDF doesn't feature.

 

[ngatimozart]

An interesting story on the BBC website. BBC News - Climate change 'grave threat' to security and health For NZ I would suggest it has significant security, economic and SLOC issues.

 

[ngatimozart]

The NZDF Annual Report for 2011 is out. This is a link to a story on it at the Defence News site. New Zealand Report Shows Progress, Delays - Defense News

 

[recce.k1]

Defence Whitepaper updates

Apparently the Defmin has said the Govt won't be closing Linton Army Camp.

Brief mention half way thru this article.

This is all unofficial of course, but what does this really mean .... because I thought the original intent was to shift many of Linton's operational personnel to an expanded Ohakea airbase (and leave some support elements at Linton anyway) .... or does it mean that in fact the Army is remaining at Linton as it is?

 

[pea032]

I was talking to someone who did some consulting work on defence force property. It seemed like they wanted to sell a load of it, he told them that it was basically worthless, in the middle of nowhere and not worth it, so maybe someone is listening to common sense.

 

[RegR]

I was talking to someone who did some consulting work on defence force property. It seemed like they wanted to sell a load of it, he told them that it was basically worthless, in the middle of nowhere and not worth it, so maybe someone is listening to common sense.

Did not think they would go ahead with this, the cost of building virtually a whole new camp at Ohakea would have been a big hit even if they did do private partnerships plus the fact they have just built alot of new specialist buildings in Linton to support LAV, VSF, barracks etc seems a waste.

Its already been tested with Whenuapai and common dog showed through although I do like the idea of co-locating with Auckland international if they ever build their extension and combine some pilot training, would save on duplicating some support functions like fire/tower/fuelling and some maintanence. Would again cost abit however you would get alot more bang for the prime Whenuapai land.

You can still combine some support elements between OHK and LTN such as supply/ training/ admin(???)/ maintanence/schools/transport blah blah at which ever loc suits best you will just have more of a transit, Linton and Ohakea are not that far apart considering.

If they wanted to split up combat and support to free up more real estate I would have thought supporties would be better moved to Ohakea leaving Linton for an expanded infantry, combat and cav role although guess thats all moot now as the way morale is in the DF at the moment if they were struggleing to maintain numbers before it will be worse now let alone ironically try to expand numbers.

 

[MrConservative]

I was talking to someone who did some consulting work on defence force property. It seemed like they wanted to sell a load of it, he told them that it was basically worthless, in the middle of nowhere and not worth it, so maybe someone is listening to common sense.

That makes sense actually - plus that the nearby institutional entities were not at all interested, that OH was possibly going to be too crowded and subsequently too costly to expand via land purchases. There was always going to have be some sort of depot facility even with the Superbase concept - thus it would be cheaper to hang on to it albeit with a new role(s) and scaled down.

 

[Lucasnz]

Its already been tested with Whenuapai and common dog showed through although I do like the idea of co-locating with Auckland international if they ever build their extension and combine some pilot training, would save on duplicating some support functions like fire/tower/fuelling and some maintanence. Would again cost abit however you would get alot more bang for the prime Whenuapai land.

Increasingly I see Whenuapai has been unsuitable for RNZAF Operations, especially for the P-3. The base lacks weapons storage areas consequently the P-3 have to go to Ohakea to bomb up. My way of thinking is that the P-3 and C-130 should relocate to Ohakea. For the C-130 I think that would generate sigificant flight hour savings. If defence choose to retain Whenuapai I see two options: 1.it could be used to consolidate the Navy OTS, Papakura onto one site alongside 6 Sqn and any visiting aircraft or 2: used as a mixed airfield like Woodbourne.

If you closed Whenuapai I'd personally like to see an operational airbase in the South Island developed in conjuction with the Army. That would get the RNZAF with 2Operational bases, 1 Shared Airfield and terminals at Auckland Airport (I think Auckland needs the second airport myself), Christchurch and Wellington. A good spread. My two cents worth on Whenuapai.

 

[Cadredave]

Apparently the Defmin has said the Govt won't be closing Linton Army Camp.

Brief mention half way thru this article.

This is all unofficial of course, but what does this really mean .... because I thought the original intent was to shift many of Linton's operational personnel to an expanded Ohakea airbase (and leave some support elements at Linton anyway) .... or does it mean that in fact the Army is remaining at Linton as it is?

Short to medium term Linton will remain that is the plan for now, new army units are arriving in Linton daily QAMR HQ move at the end of the month with the rest of the unit moving into Linton by Dec 12, All Army schools will have vacated Waiouru by Dec 11 with Combat school moving Dec 12. Current buildings to house these units are portacoms there will be no more purpose built facillities in Linton. Its in the long term that Army will vacate Linton to move to Ohakea starting with HQ DJATF (L) in Dec 12 moving into ohakea followed by the Army Depot joining with Navy & Air to form a Joint Recruit school.

 

[ngatimozart]

Increasingly I see Whenuapai has been unsuitable for RNZAF Operations, especially for the P-3. The base lacks weapons storage areas consequently the P-3 have to go to Ohakea to bomb up. My way of thinking is that the P-3 and C-130 should relocate to Ohakea. For the C-130 I think that would generate sigificant flight hour savings. If defence choose to retain Whenuapai I see two options: 1.it could be used to consolidate the Navy OTS, Papakura onto one site alongside 6 Sqn and any visiting aircraft or 2: used as a mixed airfield like Woodbourne.

If you closed Whenuapai I'd personally like to see an operational airbase in the South Island developed in conjuction with the Army. That would get the RNZAF with 2Operational bases, 1 Shared Airfield and terminals at Auckland Airport (I think Auckland needs the second airport myself), Christchurch and Wellington. A good spread. My two cents worth on Whenuapai.

A South Island operational airbase would be good. If it was in conjunction with army it would have to be in Canterbury alongside Burnham Military Camp. I don't know what land holdings NZDF have there now. If they had to purchase additional land would be expensive because of dairy boom. Second choice would be expansion of existing facilities at Woodbourne. That would be the cheaper option but maybe not the most practical if wanting close linkage with army. There is already a freight and pax terminal at Christchurch used by the RNZAF and the USAF. At Wellington the Government hanger is across the runway from the main terminals. It has pax and very basic freight facilities.

 

[recce.k1]

Short to medium term Linton will remain that is the plan for now, new army units are arriving in Linton daily QAMR HQ move at the end of the month with the rest of the unit moving into Linton by Dec 12, All Army schools will have vacated Waiouru by Dec 11 with Combat school moving Dec 12. Current buildings to house these units are portacoms there will be no more purpose built facillities in Linton. Its in the long term that Army will vacate Linton to move to Ohakea starting with HQ DJATF (L) in Dec 12 moving into ohakea followed by the Army Depot joining with Navy & Air to form a Joint Recruit school.

Sounds like it's all go then at the moment & sounds like there is room at Linton to expand (as it appears that more personnel and equipment is moving in, whilst in contrast presumably a smaller number of "backend' personnel left a few months ago a la civilianisation/relocations etc)?

Is there any contingency planning to better accomodate these new groups at Linton if the longer term move to Ohakea didn't eventuate (or fully eventuate as envisaged)? Just wondering about the portacom type accomodation being used longer than envisaged (as tends to happen with these things, generally speaking)? Mind you accomodation is accomodation whatever the building may be I suppose (and portacoms have other advantages eg moveable, expandable and can be quickly be made fit for purpose as needs change etc).

Longer term for Joint-Forces at Ohakea, the only thing missing is the ability for the Army to quickly embark to go to sea (the Port of Napier some two hours drive away seems to be the preferred point under present circumstances).

Do you think anyone is looking, long term wise, to shift the Navy to the coast there off the Manawatu/Rangitikei coastal area? Seem to recall some old scuttlebut from years ago but that would surely cost a fortune (mind you the land values at Devonport must be Defence's most expensive and in contrast to the likes of Linton/Ohakea, presumably as alluded to as per Pea032's post? Surely a PPP here could also allow commercial vessels to shift cargo around the lower north island would be attractive, seeing "national" commercial distribution centres are a growth area in the likes of the Manawatu)?

 

[MrConservative]

Increasingly I see Whenuapai has been unsuitable for RNZAF Operations, especially for the P-3. The base lacks weapons storage areas consequently the P-3 have to go to Ohakea to bomb up. My way of thinking is that the P-3 and C-130 should relocate to Ohakea. For the C-130 I think that would generate sigificant flight hour savings. If defence choose to retain Whenuapai I see two options: 1.it could be used to consolidate the Navy OTS, Papakura onto one site alongside 6 Sqn and any visiting aircraft or 2: used as a mixed airfield like Woodbourne.

If you closed Whenuapai I'd personally like to see an operational airbase in the South Island developed in conjuction with the Army. That would get the RNZAF with 2Operational bases, 1 Shared Airfield and terminals at Auckland Airport (I think Auckland needs the second airport myself), Christchurch and Wellington. A good spread. My two cents worth on Whenuapai.

In the long-term Whenuapei will eventually close (poor approach paths / proximity to the Waitakere Ranges’s / age of current facilities / nimby mentality of some locals / rising land values making the bean counters excited amongst other issues that Lucas pointed out) and NZDF aviation ops in Auckland post 2030 will likely end up as being an enhanced air movements and support base close to the projected second runway at AIA. Though the 2nd runway project is temporarily suspended it will happen in the medium term. There is ample land set aside by AIA and available for a smallish defence facility in proximity to terminal facilities that will be part of the 2nd runway project. Likewise I see something similar happening in regards to the South Island. WB finally closing and the current RNZAF facility at CHC enhanced, leaving a single NZDF/RNZAF “SuperBase” at OH.

 

[Cadredave]

Sounds like it's all go then at the moment & sounds like there is room at Linton to expand (as it appears that more personnel and equipment is moving in, whilst in contrast presumably a smaller number of "backend' personnel left a few months ago a la civilianisation/relocations etc)?

Yeah there is room to expand we have a 18 hole golf course inside Linton if we were to expand then 9 holes of that course would disappear.

Is there any contingency planning to better accomodate these new groups at Linton if the longer term move to Ohakea didn't eventuate (or fully eventuate as envisaged)? Just wondering about the portacom type accomodation being used longer than envisaged (as tends to happen with these things, generally speaking)? Mind you accomodation is accomodation whatever the building may be I suppose (and portacoms have other advantages eg moveable, expandable and can be quickly be made fit for purpose as needs change etc).

None at all recce most army schools will work out of Hokowhitu campus with students using barracks & messing in Linton, as for portacoms well HQ 2LFG have been housed in one for the last 20 years they were meant to get a new HQ ten years ago.

Longer term for Joint-Forces at Ohakea, the only thing missing is the ability for the Army to quickly embark to go to sea (the Port of Napier some two hours drive away seems to be the preferred point under present circumstances).

Army units like 5 Movement Company within the next year will form a tri service unit based in Ohakea working hand in hand with Air Force Move Ops, Army move ops are already posted to HMNZS Canterbury, we either use Napier or Wellington to board ship.

Do you think anyone is looking, long term wise, to shift the Navy to the coast there off the Manawatu/Rangitikei coastal area? Seem to recall some old scuttlebut from years ago but that would surely cost a fortune (mind you the land values at Devonport must be Defence's most expensive and in contrast to the likes of Linton/Ohakea, presumably as alluded to as per Pea032's post? Surely a PPP here could also allow commercial vessels to shift cargo around the lower north island would be attractive, seeing "national" commercial distribution centres are a growth area in the likes of the Manawatu)?

There is no plan at all to move Navy from Auckland it can transit both oceans from there plus the cost to build on the west coast would be IMO more than the replacement C130H & Endeavour combined New Plymouth is the only port on this side of the coast.

I give Army 10 to 15 years and we will be in Ohakea the writing is on the wall, all the LAV infrastructure can be dismantled and rebuilt thats how they designed it.

CD

 

[MrConservative]

Longer term for Joint-Forces at Ohakea, the only thing missing is the ability for the Army to quickly embark to go to sea (the Port of Napier some two hours drive away seems to be the preferred point under present circumstances).

Do you think anyone is looking, long term wise, to shift the Navy to the coast there off the Manawatu/Rangitikei coastal area? Seem to recall some old scuttlebut from years ago but that would surely cost a fortune (mind you the land values at Devonport must be Defence's most expensive and in contrast to the likes of Linton/Ohakea, presumably as alluded to as per Pea032's post? Surely a PPP here could also allow commercial vessels to shift cargo around the lower north island would be attractive, seeing "national" commercial distribution centres are a growth area in the likes of the Manawatu)?

They would have to sort that dreadful Manawatu Gorge road out first if they wanted to have reliable access to the Hawkes Bay Recce. Wouldn't it be easier to have them transit through New Plymouth's Port as CD points out.

The Navy at Devonport are part of the heritage and culture of the City of Sails. I would be dead against any move to ... ahem ... move them .... just to make a few million and populate the old base with overpriced apartment blocks.

 

[RegR]

I think the airbase needs to remain in Auckland(pref AK INTL due to Whenuapais impending shortfalls) as SAS need to be near an international airport(AKL having more options) and conversely need ready access to 40Sqn for short notice tasks.

The orions would also be better served north for quicker transit times into the pacific and really how often do we bomb them up? The bombs are trucked into Ohakea anyway and if it came to shove then just load them in AK as we would have bigger problems if that was required urgently.

 

[Lucasnz]

The Navy at Devonport are part of the heritage and culture of the City of Sails. I would be dead against any move to ... ahem ... move them .... just to make a few million and populate the old base with overpriced apartment blocks.

The issue with the navy is that they have no space to expand or grow. The dry dock needs expanding. While the base should stay we need to look at a second base. I would suggest Picton given Kiwi Rail is thinking of leaving probably working in conjuction with Woodbourne, in some way.

 

[MrConservative]

The issue with the navy is that they have no space to expand or grow. The dry dock needs expanding. While the base should stay we need to look at a second base. I would suggest Picton given Kiwi Rail is thinking of leaving probably working in conjuction with Woodbourne, in some way.

There definitely needs to be some presence in the SI. What with Oil & Gas expansion into the GSB and further fisheries pressure projected. As I have banged on for years we are at least 1 OPV and 1 IPV short - thus they would have to be put somewhere when we eventually get to achieving a minimum fleet size to meet tasking.

I would plumb for Port Lyttelton myself - since I think that Woodborne will probably be the next major NZDF base to close and is currently itemed under the Waitangi claim process. I also don't know where Kiwirail will get the money from to develop Clifford Bay alternative. Lyttelton is close to Burnham and CHC and I have been told has an existing drydock technically capable of supporting the IPV's and OPV's.

Though with Picton as a second RNZN Base I suppose that the Canterbury will finally get the operational use it was really designed for.... as a car ferry. Maybe there are some PPP opportunities with that for the NZDF.

 

[recce.k1]

None at all recce most army schools will work out of Hokowhitu campus with students using barracks & messing in Linton, as for portacoms well HQ 2LFG have been housed in one for the last 20 years they were meant to get a new HQ ten years ago.

Army units like 5 Movement Company within the next year will form a tri service unit based in Ohakea working hand in hand with Air Force Move Ops, Army move ops are already posted to HMNZS Canterbury, we either use Napier or Wellington to board ship.

I give Army 10 to 15 years and we will be in Ohakea the writing is on the wall, all the LAV infrastructure can be dismantled and rebuilt thats how they designed it.

CD

Thanks CD. A couple of other things (which aren't clear to me in the Defence Review and subsequent public documents).

With the shifts occuring this year (to Linton, Ohakea and Hokowhitu), does that account for the majority of the Army/NZDF units being relocated for the timebeing or are there still more relocations planned for the next year or so?

Longer term then would the likes of the Army Schools stay at Hokowhitu, or move to Ohakea (or move into Linton when the bulk of Linton's operational units move to Ohakea), in that future 10-15 years time frame?

(For those unsure Hokowhitu being referred to here, apart from also being the name of a suburb in Palmerston North, is Massey University's "city" campus that the University is gradually relocating away from to their main campus. It's a very pleasant area with lots of open space, and next to the campus is the river and lagoon, not too many houses nearby although they are top dollar ... and conveniently next door to an 18 hole golf course ... in fact troops could probably jump the boundary fence and get some practice in between lessons.

I understand in pre-European times it was the local Maori tribes' training area for their warriors, so perhaps this is somewhat apt today! There is a reference at the bottom of page 4 here).

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Edit/update: Defmin's (spokeswoman) confirms Linton not closing and gives an indication of current thinking (and mostly answers my second query above):

Plans to shut Linton Military Camp and move staff to Ohakea have been shelved.

Defence Minister Wayne Mapp confirmed there were no plans to close the Linton base as part of a previously signalled merger with Ohakea Air Force Base, and other options were being looked at.

The White Paper defence review, released by the Government last year, suggested a consolidation of military resources in the wider Manawatu by moving the Linton and Waiouru camps to Ohakea in the next five to 10 years.

But a spokeswoman for Dr Mapp said yesterday the Government was now looking at other options, which included moving Waiouru staff to Linton, and turning the Waiouru camp into a training ground.

Creating a defence hub within Manawatu, involving Linton, Ohakea and the training facility at Massey University's Hokowhitu campus, was being investigated.

"Dr Mapp said that once they had looked into that, there was probably a more sensible way to do it," she said.

More at http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/5941686/Linton-camp-closure-plans-shelved

 

[RegR]

I still don't quite get moving a bulk of army units to Ohakea(especially combat) if we are still going to keep some at Linton anyway, it should either be all or nothing as Linton has alot more useable space and is even making more by selling off the houseing area, either way you will still be left with 2 lots of support in 2 locations if we do not end up consolidating onto one base.

The fact that govt is looking at more training in Hokowhitu makes it kind of silly to base some in Ohakea vs Linton(which is just up the road). I can see the point in units such as 5 Mov definately and joint user units such as med, transport, supply, HQ etc maybe but then again these should be where the bulk of the troops are which again if we keep both bases anyway should be Linton(armys in the feild alot more than air so require more support functions).

Again smells of the co-locating of Whenuapai with Ohakea and again falls by the wayside probably due to someone actually looking into the pros and cons properly.

 

[Cadredave]

With the shifts occuring this year (to Linton, Ohakea and Hokowhitu), does that account for the majority of the Army/NZDF units being relocated for the timebeing or are there still more relocations planned for the next year or so?

Recce there are only two Army schools left School of Guns & Combat School they will remain close to there user Units. All other Schools have transitioned to Tri Service ( Med, Logistics, Int, Catering & Tpt)

Longer term then would the likes of the Army Schools stay at Hokowhitu, or move to Ohakea (or move into Linton when the bulk of Linton's operational units move to Ohakea), in that future 10-15 years time frame?

TED who run Hokowhitu is an NZDF organisation so they will look after all the Tri Service schools out of Hokowhitu y

Edit/update: Defmin's (spokeswoman) confirms Linton not closing and gives an indication of current thinking (and mostly answers my second query above):

Well this dont surprise me being an election year CA was in camp and said the plan was still going ahead hes back next week so might have something different to say oh we will see plan d being rolled out wait wait out.

CD