North Korea VS South Korea

[ROCK45]

Air war is different

I agree with eckherl on two major points here. The air war would be very different because of the terrain in Korea and the US broke the will of the Iraqi's basically before the first troops crossed the border. I don't think North Korea would sit back for weeks and get bombed without using there artillery. Most of this thread deals with what if North Korea attacked but lets flip it how with the US help would South Korea attack North Korea? I think attacking command and control and stopping or slowing down the orders to a few dozen artillery commands would be my first move. I can remember a Larry Bond fiction novel of the North Korea attack the South Korea but can't remember the one fiction novel I read with the South Koreans attacking the North Koreans. Maybe somebody could help with that.

 

[Incognito129]

N.K. also have massive number of underground facilities and tunnels. This isn't any Iraq where you are bombing old planes out in the open.

 

[Incognito129]

"The forum" knows my nationality. Or rather, those who've paid attention to what I've said here in the past, or bothered to check my profile. My ancestry has also been mentioned, although I think not recently. Suffice it to say that I have no Asian ancestry that I know of, & no connections to China whatsoever. Not even been there, except for Hong Kong when it was still a British colony.

I dont care who you've convinced. You are asian, which country i have no clue. I dont care if you reside in the UK, hell you could even be a British jew who are big supporters of China. Either way you have an overwhelming bias towards China, and Japan for that matter based solely on what you've said.

You probably will never reveal your real ethnicity so I wont bother anymore.

You seem to think the US desire to bomb China that you posit to be a good thing. Why is that? And why do you think the USA is mad keen to bomb China? Do you have good grounds for your belief, or is as well-founded as your utterly idiotic opinion of my ethnic origin, nationality, & sympathies?

China wants power, its expressed territorial ambitions. Its in the best interests of the US to eliminate the Chinese military, before Russia can help them grow and the world order becomes askew.

The world has everything to gain if you eliminate the Chinese army. Ive mentioned this so many times, yet you come back and ask the same question over and over.

Its in your best interests to keep in touch of reality. You can change your perception but reality remains the same.

Well then, what if he is a Chinese , what is he is not?

He is pro-China, I want to know why. It would better explain his bias towards China and slightly towards Japan(although i might be confusing him with someone else). Hell he might not be asian at all, could be a British jew supporting a new world order.

I came through your relpy and find your statement concerns about my personal interests and other 1.2 billion Chinese s right of speak.

You just simply rule out 1/5 of world s population s right of voice just by claiming that they are communist brainwashed and therefore all their statements are invalid. So you can end every losing debate with Chinese in that manner.

You can speak whenever you want. What I said is the US should and does want to bomb China back into the 80s. If you dont like it by all means disagree. One thing is for certain, if we want China gone, China disappears.

but whether we are brainwashed or not ,our abilitys of reasoning and logic is not lower than any other and perhaps much better than yours.

If you are brainwashed you have no reasoning or logic.

besides ,can you prove all your idea and oppion is based on personal perceiving and indepent thinking while not some captalism way of brainwashing?.And if so, How much credibility do your indepent idea have?

Your president came and say: US China cooperate on countering terrist and regional peace

and you say:bomb the hell out of us ,and whom should I believe?

AIPAC is protecting China for now, but the echelon of the US military wants China to go.

The China men in your government are utterly convinced people around the world buy your bullshit.

I think I'll skip the 2nd warning and award you a permanent stay in the sin bin without any further ado.

/GD

 

[phreeky]

Wow, that was "interesting".

So what's the realistic navy situation of these two nations and the chance anything would play out over water? Subs? Or are they limited to surface craft and therefore South Koreas (with help from Allies no doubt) air dominance make any navy activity practically void?

 

[sgtgunn]

Ist or 2nd tank Adrian.

2nd Tank. I was an assistant operations sergeant in S-3. Our commander was Lt. Col. (Admin: Name deleted for security and privacy reasons)

Adrian

 

[Thery]

Wow, that was "interesting".

So what's the realistic navy situation of these two nations and the chance anything would play out over water? Subs? Or are they limited to surface craft and therefore South Koreas (with help from Allies no doubt) air dominance make any navy activity practically void?

Sea battle also in SK favor, although NK produce their own small subs and have lots small boats, but I seriously doubting their effectiveness because of their size and weapon. The best NK navy can do is just lay some mine to stop ROKN landing troops and/or harass the south a bit.

I remember ROKN use to be pleased with helicopters’ ability against small fast craft, therefore they introduced quite a lot of them. But I did not notice any further development or introduced newer model at that area, are ROKN change their focuses? Or their found something better?

 

[Waylander]

@Adrian
Very nice summary of the defense situation along the DMZ.
I think the problem of the terrain has been mentioned here before but maybe it got lost during incognitos little rant attack...
I am though a little bit secptical if MLRS is going to have the same effect against the hardened NK artillery positions like against Saddam's mostly towed artillery positioned in the open desert.

I also have a question which is especially directed at the aviation experts here.
How much would stormy, bad weather hinder the USAF, ROKAF (And propably JSDAF) in countering an offensive move of NK forces?
Maybe just 3 days of bad weather would allow NK forces to bring down significant forces and would make a defense by ROKA units much harder (I think you are right that there is just one US HBCT left).
If they reach the cities with significant forces it could be much harder to bomb them out again and the blood toll could be huge.

 

[Chrom]

I also have a question which is especially directed at the aviation experts here.
How much would stormy, bad weather hinder the USAF, ROKAF (And propably JSDAF) in countering an offensive move of NK forces?
Maybe just 3 days of bad weather would allow NK forces to bring down significant forces and would make a defense by ROKA units much harder (I think you are right that there is just one US HBCT left).
If they reach the cities with significant forces it could be much harder to bomb them out again and the blood toll could be huge.

I'm not aviation expert - but i'll try to make some points

1. Bad weather will certainly affect airforce - escpeceally close support and recon components.

2. In direct engagement (when reconing is provided by ground forces) airforces would be able to provide good support, some with artillery.

3. As much as i know, there is no sand storms in Korea. So bad weather is just usuall rains and winds. Modern bombers and fighter-bombers shoud be able to detect & prevent major NK technic movements by SAR radar modes. Radars are much less affected by bad weather.

4. I dont belive NK will be able to mount successfull offencive in any weather, but they certainly can inflict major losses to SK military and civilian sector with artillery and MLRS.

 

[eckherl]

@Adrian
Very nice summary of the defense situation along the DMZ.
I think the problem of the terrain has been mentioned here before but maybe it got lost during incognitos little rant attack...
I am though a little bit secptical if MLRS is going to have the same effect against the hardened NK artillery positions like against Saddam's mostly towed artillery positioned in the open desert.

I also have a question which is especially directed at the aviation experts here.
How much would stormy, bad weather hinder the USAF, ROKAF (And propably JSDAF) in countering an offensive move of NK forces?
Maybe just 3 days of bad weather would allow NK forces to bring down significant forces and would make a defense by ROKA units much harder (I think you are right that there is just one US HBCT left).
If they reach the cities with significant forces it could be much harder to bomb them out again and the blood toll could be huge.

Adrian is correct in regards to the current 2nd ID structure.

 

[swerve]

I'm not aviation expert - but i'll try to make some points

1. Bad weather will certainly affect airforce - escpeceally close support and recon components.

2. In direct engagement (when reconing is provided by ground forces) airforces would be able to provide good support, some with artillery.

3. As much as i know, there is no sand storms in Korea. So bad weather is just usuall rains and winds. Modern bombers and fighter-bombers shoud be able to detect & prevent major NK technic movements by SAR radar modes. Radars are much less affected by bad weather.

4. I dont belive NK will be able to mount successfull offencive in any weather, but they certainly can inflict major losses to SK military and civilian sector with artillery and MLRS.

1. A large proportion of the N. Korean artillery is in fixed emplacements, some in tunnels. These should have almost all been mapped: as long as aircraft can fly, such fixed targets can be attacked with GPS-guided weapons. South Korea has JDAM.

2. & 3. Yes. Artillery can also be located with those radars (the name escapes me for the moment) which track back the trajectory of the projectile.

4. Agreed. I would expect some penetrations of S. Korean defences, largely because N. Korea has so much artillery & infantry that it'll be able to saturate defences in some sectors, but those penetrations will soon be cut off from supplies, & reduced to infantry trying to live off what they carry & can scavenge. There could be a lot of casualties dealing with those infantry.

One thing that interests me is the reaction of N. Korean troops to entering S. Korea. They might believe the first S. Korean village they enter is some sort of pimped-up fake to fool them (doubtless their commissars will say that), but they'll soon realise that the average S. Korean lives in extraordinary luxury compared to them. Will their discipline survive? Will they stop to loot? Will they become demoralised?

 

[eckherl]

2nd Tank. I was an assistant operations sergeant in S-3. Our commander was Lt. Col. (Admin: Name deleted for security and privacy reasons)
Adrian

I served one of my tours in A co 2nd tank, other tours were with 1st tank in the same bloody company, (Charlie don`t surf).

 

[evripide]

Sea battle also in SK favor, although NK produce their own small subs and have lots small boats, but I seriously doubting their effectiveness because of their size and weapon. The best NK navy can do is just lay some mine to stop ROKN landing troops and/or harass the south a bit.

I remember ROKN use to be pleased with helicopters’ ability against small fast craft, therefore they introduced quite a lot of them. But I did not notice any further development or introduced newer model at that area, are ROKN change their focuses? Or their found something better?

I know there are several development project of new helis. Eurocopters (Puma) may be a partner of one of these. However, there is no current introducing new helis in the navy, even though they need a considerable number of helis for LPH Dokdo. There are three possibilities. Not enough budget, waiting for the new development, or both.

 

[Chrom]

One thing that interests me is the reaction of N. Korean troops to entering S. Korea. They might believe the first S. Korean village they enter is some sort of pimped-up fake to fool them (doubtless their commissars will say that), but they'll soon realise that the average S. Korean lives in extraordinary luxury compared to them. Will their discipline survive? Will they stop to loot? Will they become demoralised?

I'm sure average NK citizen know pretty well what SK citizens are richer. Sure, they dont know how much they are richer. Still i think NK discipline will certainly survive - becouse they are not complete idiots and understand what surrending after starting big war will do nothing good to them, and they will not magicaly start living just as good as SK. While by continue the war and winning they could certainly increase they economical situation and prove not everything they done was wrong.

 

[swerve]

I know there are several development project of new helis. Eurocopters (Puma) may be a partner of one of these. However, there is no current introducing new helis in the navy, even though they need a considerable number of helis for LPH Dokdo. There are three possibilities. Not enough budget, waiting for the new development, or both.

The Sea Skua armed Lynx are still operational, aren't they? A good combination against FACs. And S. Korea has air-launched Penguin, though I'm not sure what platform they use.

 

[ROCK45]

air-launched Penguin

swerve
And S. Korea has air-launched Penguin, though I'm not sure what platform they use.

Different platforms
The Penguin (AGM-119) missile is a passive IR-seeker anti-ship missile. Usually fired off of Bell 412, Seasprite, Seahawk/Blackhawk, and Super Lynx helicopters, F-16, and some naval vessels. It is built by Kongsberd Defence & Aerospace of Norway.


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/agm-119.htm
http://www.navalhelicopterassn.org/penguin.htm

I found another SK anti-ship missile
South Korean Navy SSM-700K Sea Star Anti-Ship Missile
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/south-korean-navy-ssm-700k-sea-star-anti-ship-missile/33498256

 

[Waylander]

1. A large proportion of the N. Korean artillery is in fixed emplacements, some in tunnels. These should have almost all been mapped: as long as aircraft can fly, such fixed targets can be attacked with GPS-guided weapons. South Korea has JDAM.

2. & 3. Yes. Artillery can also be located with those radars (the name escapes me for the moment) which track back the trajectory of the projectile.

4. Agreed. I would expect some penetrations of S. Korean defences, largely because N. Korea has so much artillery & infantry that it'll be able to saturate defences in some sectors, but those penetrations will soon be cut off from supplies, & reduced to infantry trying to live off what they carry & can scavenge. There could be a lot of casualties dealing with those infantry.

One thing that interests me is the reaction of N. Korean troops to entering S. Korea. They might believe the first S. Korean village they enter is some sort of pimped-up fake to fool them (doubtless their commissars will say that), but they'll soon realise that the average S. Korean lives in extraordinary luxury compared to them. Will their discipline survive? Will they stop to loot? Will they become demoralised?

1. I think the question is if they have enough JDAMs, available, if they don't need them for other high value targets and if they can fly sorties fast enough to take out a considerable number of arty positions.

2.&3. For sure artillery is going to work in nearly every weather and I am sure that SK has good fire finder equipment. But after I experienced some Taifuns in that area by myself and have seen how bad a snow storm can get during winter on the Korean Peninsula I doubt that bad weather (I am not speaking about some wind and rain... ) can be taken so lightly.
If I was NK I would defenitely wait for weather which reduces air operations as much as possible.

4. Jup, agreed.


Your point about looting and wondering NK soldiers is very interesting.
When I think about it I have the feeling that this might really be a shock for the average NK soldier.
The NK citizens are the most shielded people on this planet when it comes to informations about their own and other countries.

 

[Grand Danois]

Wrt 1., JDAMs are not the bottleneck, as US stocks can be flown and shipped in and US inventory is in 5 if not 6 digit numbers. I'd consider the JDAM very important on the Korean Peninsula, as much of the NK arty is fixed to their dug in positions (caves), which makes a B-1B pass a high impact event. The number of jets and the weather is another issue, but one should take into account that air power, say from CSGs of NK and Japan can work in the sectors not severely affected. Weather curbs NK activity levels as well. Anyway, the number of jets available would be the limiter imv.

 

[sgtgunn]

I served one of my tours in A co 2nd tank, other tours were with 1st tank in the same bloody company, (Charlie don`t surf).

No kidding? What years were you there?

Adrian

 

[sgtgunn]

@Adrian
Very nice summary of the defense situation along the DMZ.
I think the problem of the terrain has been mentioned here before but maybe it got lost during incognitos little rant attack...
I am though a little bit secptical if MLRS is going to have the same effect against the hardened NK artillery positions like against Saddam's mostly towed artillery positioned in the open desert.

I also have a question which is especially directed at the aviation experts here.
How much would stormy, bad weather hinder the USAF, ROKAF (And propably JSDAF) in countering an offensive move of NK forces?
Maybe just 3 days of bad weather would allow NK forces to bring down significant forces and would make a defense by ROKA units much harder (I think you are right that there is just one US HBCT left).
If they reach the cities with significant forces it could be much harder to bomb them out again and the blood toll could be huge.

Hmmm... I posted a reply to this a couple of hours ago and it never popped up. This happen often?

Adrian

 

[eckherl]

No kidding? What years were you there?

Adrian

When you have the ability to PM then we can talk, we may of crossed paths before.