North Korea "Conducts Nuke Test!"

[Grand Danois]

the quote was about having the will to use bunker busting nukes.

I am aware of that, but I think you better be prepared to respond to DPRK's response to the use of bunker busting nukes. And with that, use of nukes are not taboo anymore.

Edit:

we are going to nuke them, how do we know that we have taken out all their Strategic weapons? what price are you willing to pay in response to nuking them? are you willing to sacrifice south korea?, japan? using tactical nuke or any kind of nukes on north korea is ........ words can't describe how outlandish that is.

I am not advocating the use, just playing out the scenario.

Yup. First strike is first strike, there is nothing in between. It'll have to be done assuredly. No room for collateral damage considerations. That is the disadvantage for DPRK to have nukes. They limit the options of their OPFOR and will be hit much harder. Japan/SK/Seoul won't be sacrificed if DPRK response options are gone.

So if you go bunker busting with nukes, you better be prepared to go all the way...

 

[icelord]

I am aware of that, but I think you better be prepared to respond to DPRK's response to the use of bunker busting nukes. And with that, use of nukes are not taboo anymore.

So if you go bunker busting with nukes, you better be prepared to go all the way...

Hes got ya there
O the irony, If you use nukes to stop another country using nukes, what is the point? Its a little beyond pre-emptive strike
Doesn't that kinda rule out the whole point of the attack, if your gunna take out Kims Nuke program, you would use a tactical strike, and any US Hawk General would tell you that. This is the 21st century MAD situation, by using a nuke, they will respond with their nuke, and so on. Everyone knows Korea has agents everywhere, in Japan they kidnap the people for whatever reason they do it, idk, Kim gets kicks outta Japanese girls
The point is, they might also have agents in very important places, say a Nuclear power plant, Kim would'nt stop at such an attack, or even a suitcase dirty nuke....thankyou team america
More then likely, it would give him more support from other "rogue" countries, and even china might be offended that the US might not stop at one countries nuke program, and then we go to Iran next, they fear the same treatment, and therefore, Iran launches a per-emptive strike, Syria comes in to help, somehow Israel gets dragged into this, and hell the middle east blows up, and then if we swing back to Asia, Korea has launched an attack on the South, Japanese warships are being involved in firefights with Korean Subs, (Japan to win with their level of tech and New shiny boats) and hell breaks lose everywhere else, anyone wanna try and clean up the aftermath?
This sort of thing is best shown here:
http://www.endofworld.net/

 

[Grand Danois]

If I understand your post correctly, then no. If we stick to the situation in DPRK, they will never be able to respond, because it will have to be done properly by sprinkling NK with mushroom clouds.

Attacking a nuclear programme with limited means would only be viable as long as it has no deployed nukes.

The other side of the coin is that having a small number of nukes is also a disadvantage. It may gain some political leverage internationally for nations like DPRK and Iran, however, the instant any high tech nation thinks that it is under real threat of attack they (DPRK + Iran) risk being terminated as nations. There is no middle ground.

They (DPRK and Iran) want to gain leverage through assymetrical means and use nukes to "equalize the playing field." It is just they are really on the field of technology and economy, where the playing field is far from even. Capability and density of ABM systems will increase drastically. And the best ABM is the first strike.

 

[alexsa]

I hope the Japanese are smart enough to realize that building their own nuclear force would be the best counter to any such moves made by NK, as well as a buildup up their conventional forces. Actually I hope were smart enough to realize that too. They talk about their post war constitution but I'd say the reality is they just plain didn't want to spend the money for a 1st world military machine.

Strange isn't it how so many national Leaders ignore the countless lessons of history when confronting tyrants isn't it? Why is that? The Klinton, Carter, Albright, gaggle among them.

What we need right now is bunker busting nukes and the will to use them. I think its a mistake to let this lunatic develop an ICBM force.

I certainly hope they do not follow your line of thinking. NK have maybe 10 warheads and are struggling to develop an effective delivery system. The push should be to reduce the number of nukes not have Japan cause a local nuclear arms race by producing them.

The best move for Japan, as stated by others, is to strengthen its conventional armed forces and ABM capability.

Needing the 'will' to use nuclear weapons as a solution to this situation is probably one of the most unsettling comments made to date.

 

[Waylander]

2 points.

1. I really don't believe that the US are able to wipe out every of the thousands of artillery tubes, every MLRS and every SCUD, Taepedong, etc. with the first strike.
So the counterfire against south Korea would be horrible with thousands of civilians being killed within the first minutes.
This is not an option for me, especially not against the will of the South Korean government and people.

2. I also don't believe that China would be very happy to have massive USAF operations in NK not to talk of some Nukes right in their backyard. You cannot just go against the will of China in NK without risking an even bigger conflict.

€Rich
Japan has no first class army?
They might just spend round about 1% of their GDP but this 1% is worth more than 40 billion which us huge compared to everybody else except the US.
Japan is in the middle of an economical crisis and I don't believe that pushing their defence budget is the right way to deal with it.
Maybe some special budget for an ABM-system which runs next to the normal defence budget would be ok.
But the JSDF of these days are for sure powerfull enough to deal with every move of any country of the region. Maybe some more gorund attack/stand-off capabilities for their air force but this has been not a budget problem till now but has political and social reasons.

 

[icelord]

€Rich
Japan has no first class army?
They might just spend round about 1% of their GDP but this 1% is worth more than 40 billion which us huge compared to everybody else except the US.
Japan is in the middle of an economical crisis and I don't believe that pushing their defence budget is the right way to deal with it.
Maybe some special budget for an ABM-system which runs next to the normal defence budget would be ok.
But the JSDF of these days are for sure powerfull enough to deal with every move of any country of the region. Maybe some more gorund attack/stand-off capabilities for their air force but this has been not a budget problem till now but has political and social reasons.

That and their equipment is quite up to date, its amazing what you can buy when you don't have to deploy every two years

 

[Grand Danois]

2 points.

1. I really don't believe that the US are able to wipe out every of the thousands of artillery tubes, every MLRS and every SCUD, Taepedong, etc. with the first strike.
So the counterfire against south Korea would be horrible with thousands of civilians being killed within the first minutes.
This is not an option for me, especially not against the will of the South Korean government and people.

2. I also don't believe that China would be very happy to have massive USAF operations in NK not to talk of some Nukes right in their backyard. You cannot just go against the will of China in NK without risking an even bigger conflict.

10-15 tacnukes and the tube/MLRS threat to Seoul is gone. Hit the DPRK corps level artillery regiments (they're the ones controlling the use of battlefield WMD's). That could be done conventionally.

Hunting down SCUDs would be difficult, but not the Taepo Dongs, as they're very intensive in infrastructure. But then again what does it matter if North Korea is being blanketed in nuclear fire? TBMD and ABM is for the leakers.

Who in Japan or the US cares of what SK or PRC thinks if they are about to get hit with a DPRK nuke?

 

[Waylander]

Jup.
I see nobody being able to penetrate their naval and air perimeter without heavy losses and than he have to face the grouund forces which might not be the biggest ones but are well equipped with modern MBTs, IFVs, Artillery, MLRS, gunships, personal equipment, etc.

 

[Waylander]

@Grand Denois
The US need their bases in Japan and SK.
And you really believe the USAF and USN is able to hit all these guns? I really doubt so.
For sure not with a surprise attack. They need to deploy additional fighters, bombers and carriers.
This would lead to a high alert status of NK and when the first bomb hits or the first air defense perimeter is penetrated they fire everything they have.
And again.
China would for sure not just stand by and look while the US is bombing the shit out of NK.
Some possible scenarios.
- China march into NK to seice control there and prevent the US from establishing a presence there. This could lead to military clashes between the US and China as it is always possible when two big miltary forces operate next to each other on high alert
- NK is marching over the border and this "little" airstrike conducts in a big war over the Korean peninsula with millions of deaths.
- NK fires everything the US cannot destroy with the first volley at Seoul and hundreds of thousands civilians die. Look at how many days the allied forces needed to hunt down the SCUDS and enemy forces during the gulf war in '91.

BTW, SK already made clear that they would not allow the US, by any means, to attack NK without their go.

 

[Grand Danois]

@Grand Denois
The US need their bases in Japan and SK.
And you really believe the USAF and USN is able to hit all these guns? I really doubt so.
For sure not with a surprise attack. They need to deploy additional fighters, bombers and carriers.
This would lead to a high alert status of NK and when the first bomb hits or the first air defense perimeter is penetrated they fire everything they have.
And again.
China would for sure not just stand by and look while the US is bombing the shit out of NK.

First of all, I am discussing the impact of DPRK nukes and how it affects US/Japan response options in case of a dire crisis.

For the US to do what I described in the previous post would require the US to deploy 0 extra carriers, 0 extra fighters, 0 extra troops, 0 extra etc.

It's all done by ALCM, SLBM, SLCM from SSBN/SSGN and strategic bombers from Guam/CONUS. It'll be over in less than half an hour.

Some possible scenarios.
- China march into NK to seice control there and prevent the US from establishing a presence there. This could lead to military clashes between the US and China as it is always possible when two big miltary forces operate next to each other on high alert
- NK is marching over the border and this "little" airstrike conducts in a big war over the Korean peninsula with millions of deaths.
- NK fires everything the US cannot destroy with the first volley at Seoul and hundreds of thousands civilians die. Look at how many days the allied forces needed to hunt down the SCUDS and enemy forces during the gulf war in '91.

BTW, SK already made clear that they would not allow the US, by any means, to attack NK without their go.

The opinion of SK is not needed in this case.

What I am arguing is that attacking a deployed nuclear programme by limited means is insane. If you want to attack a deployed nuclear programme, then you better wipe out the rest of the of the country just to be sure.

If you don't want to do the latter, then don't use a military option at all. Go diplomatic. Limited strikes has ceased to be an option.

That is the options given to US/Japan.

 

[abramsteve]

The problem is that little Kim is nuts! I doubt he would be upset at the thought of losing thousands of men and killing possibly millions if for nothing more than a desperate and futile act of retaliation. Maybe an airstrike on him rather than NKs weapons facilities would be a better option...

BTW Icelord, that link thingo was hillarious! :lol3

 

[Waylander]

Aaah, now I get what you want.
It is really not my week. :wah

The problems with such a massive nuclear cruise missiles, ICBMs, SLBMs, Bombers, etc. is that even you have to tell it at least to China and Russia because of you don't China might think that all these missiles and bombers are meant for them and not for NK and they could start their ICBMs to hit CONUS and wipe out every US base in range to them.
But if you are tell it to them there is the possibility that NK knows it too. They might than decide to fire first and die with a big bang.
Not to talk that a mistake by one of the other big nuclear powers could lead to the end of the world.

 

[Waylander]

@Abramsteve
Another problem is that we don't knwo if porn Kim is still in charge. There are rumours that there has been a quiet military takeover on the '90s and who knows how much power is left to him.

BTW, if I look at how NATO performed in Kosovo while trying to find the serbian army I really doubt that the US knows were all the guns, and missiles are.

 

[Grand Danois]

Warning Russia and China would probably be a good idea.

Nuclear weapons have different properties from the surgical strikes of the Kosovo Air War.

 

[abramsteve]

Ahhh ok I hadnt heard this rumor...

Good point though, makes me wonder how much intel we have on Kim and his government, or should I say gang!

 

[Waylander]

This is one of the main problems while dealing with NK. Every intel except sats and EW is nearly not existing.

And when you don't know were alle the guns, facilities and missiles are you have to make a big black glass plate out of the country if you want to get all of them with a surprise attack.
And this is mass murdering and out of discussion.

 

[icelord]

Old mate kim has had a few years to build underground bunkers, camo launch sites and hid whatever he wants in villages, odds on he'd have something hidden in many small villages to install "pride", and maybe a little fear, do u really think the USAF would be willing to risk high collateral damage as well?

 

[Grand Danois]

But if glassing NK over, then you're past the collateral damage considerations.

 

[RubiconNZ]

do u really think the USAF would be willing to risk high collateral damage as well?

Well North Korea more than most you wouldn't hear about it, no western media and very little of anyother kind not to mention State run services would hardly be operational for any length of time in to a concerted US strikes

 

[RubiconNZ]

But if glassing NK over, then you're past the collateral damage considerations.

Especially if it is retaliatory rather that pre-emptory