Nh-90???

[RubiconNZ]

Sioux Rep.

I'd agree EC 135 looks great but wouldn't the AS550 C3 be better, or the Twin engined model AS 555, can be upgunned quite nicely if needed, which a LUH being the only option in the near future for the NZDF to have any Air fire support, I mean it even can carries ATM or Air-Air, that would be gold, It makes good sense that a version like this be avalible espscially to ride shotgun to the NHR90s, if they bought 8 NHR90's (should be 12-18) then 12 to 15 of these would provide air training capability or lease out that training option as nthe do with the multi engine trainers. This LUH would be good for the ADF as well would it not, 60 of these would surely meet all requirments for ADF and NZDF.
The key would be cost any ideas I cant find any likely price?

 

[Whiskyjack]

I'd agree EC 135 looks great but wouldn't the AS550 C3 be better, or the Twin engined model AS 555, can be upgunned quite nicely if needed, which a LUH being the only option in the near future for the NZDF to have any Air fire support, I mean it even can carries ATM or Air-Air, that would be gold, It makes good sense that a version like this be avalible espscially to ride shotgun to the NHR90s, if they bought 8 NHR90's (should be 12-18) then 12 to 15 of these would provide air training capability or lease out that training option as nthe do with the multi engine trainers. This LUH would be good for the ADF as well would it not, 60 of these would surely meet all requirments for ADF and NZDF.
The key would be cost any ideas I cant find any likely price?

The EC135 has a military variant called the EC635, which has all the armament options. The 135/635 would be of greater use to the NZDF as they have a greater lift capability that would supplement the NH90 nicely.

That is of course if a meaningful number are bought!

 

[Cootamundra]

A joint helicopter management study commissioned by government will be completed by the end of February with this to "determine an agreed consensus position between the three services on the future of ADF rotary wing capability." The study will be considered by senior Australian defence planning committees in March-April....

Some of the questions they are looking at are how ADF rotary wing personnel could be jointly managed across the services to improve the ADF's operational flexibilty and to improve retention; and would the co-location of training systems and-or squadrons bring about increased operational capability where it is sensible to do so.}

Personally I see much merit in an Aussie Joint helicopter command ala the UK. This would with the manning issues and one could see that there maybe economies of scale if such an approach was put into play. Anyone have any idea how likely this maybe?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Personally I see much merit in an Aussie Joint helicopter command ala the UK. This would with the manning issues and one could see that there maybe economies of scale if such an approach was put into play. Anyone have any idea how likely this maybe?

I think it would be a superb idea. Airforce is having the least amount of trouble gaining pilot numbers out of the 3 services, with Navy the worst. Army isn't too bad, however is struggling to fill it's Tiger ARH positions. IF a JFH could be agreed upon, it should greatly simplify training issues (currently Navy wants a new single engine helo for training purposes, Army wants a twin engine helo with a useful lift capability, to make up for the loss of lift capacity from losing Iroquois).

With a pool of pilots from all 3 services, it should go a long way to ensuring that pilot manning can be maintained at a reasonable level (and those snappy "joint" "purple" uniforms would look great too).

It seems ever more likely that MRH-90 will become the predominant helo within the ADF. Particularly given the difficulties encountered with the Seahawk FLIR/EWSP upgrades and DMO reluctance (based on Seasprite, FFG-UP and M113AS3/4 upgrade projects) to undertake new highly technical upgrade projects, and instead simply purchase new capability. JFH could then perhaps focus primarily on NH-90 and Chinook ops. Army and RAN could provide the bulk of the pilots for MRH-90 ops, given they will be the operators and users of these aircraft.

Additional Chinooks seem most likely to replace our current Caribou aircraft, so RAAF and Army could supply pilots from these roles, given they will have similar taskings, to those of our current Caribou fleet.


Army I'd imgaine would be extremely unlikely to want to "give up" it's ARH assets to a JFH organisation and given their difference to any other helo in-service, I don't have a problem with that. Regular "airlift" tasks though, could probably be conducted by and large by a joint organisation.

 

[cherry]

Do you think that the Caribous will be replaced one-for-one with the Chinooks? My feeling is they will. Have the Caribous been used much operationally over the last ten or so years either in combat or with disaster relief. You don't seem to hear anything about them being used operationally. If the case is that they aren't used all that often, then perhaps a purchase of an additional 14 Chinooks along with an upgraded existing 6 Chinooks might provide the best intra lift capability for ADF (using them from the new LHDs and sealift platforms will increase their value to the service even further).

 

[Whiskyjack]

Do you think that the Caribous will be replaced one-for-one with the Chinooks? My feeling is they will. Have the Caribous been used much operationally over the last ten or so years either in combat or with disaster relief. You don't seem to hear anything about them being used operationally. If the case is that they aren't used all that often, then perhaps a purchase of an additional 14 Chinooks along with an upgraded existing 6 Chinooks might provide the best intra lift capability for ADF (using them from the new LHDs and sealift platforms will increase their value to the service even further).

My gut feeling is that they will get around 6-8 more CH-47s. Can't say why, it is just an opinion.

 

[Rocco_NZ]

NZ Order

One of the criteria for the Sioux replacement was the ability to train aircrew for the NH90 and Seasprite. This suggest that the replacement aircraft will have a larger internal cargo volume, as well as a moderate sling load capability. Another stated requirement is to field a more complicated platform that will provide better insight in to operating the more complex SH-2G and NH90.

The current government purchase agreement for the rotary wing transport force is for 6 airframes available for overseas deployment, with an additional two aircraft available domestically for SAR and CT duties. There is nothing to indicate the purchase agreement for overseas deployment will be altered.

It should be noted that the Sioux replacement is also required to be suitable for light utility duties, including SAR. One could conclude that this will reduce the number of NH90s required to be operational at a given time.

The 2002 review of the rotary deployment to East Timor noted that deployments of such a significant percentage of available aircraft and crew overseas, it was difficult to train aircrews domestically, particularly for formation flying. This may well mean there is an intention to increase the size of the rotary force so as to better provide for additional rotations.

Regarding the stated PAX capacity of the aircraft, it is probably safe to assume that there is an assumption that the maximum number of seats won’t be fitted to New Zealand airframes. Removing the 6 seats in the centre of the cargo bay would reduce the number of PAX to 14 from the 20 stated elsewhere. For Iroquois operations it is normal practice not to fit the maximum number of seats possible, as this increases flexibility for cargo operations.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

The current government purchase agreement for the rotary wing transport force is for 6 airframes available for overseas deployment, with an additional two aircraft available domestically for SAR and CT duties. There is nothing to indicate the purchase agreement for overseas deployment will be altered.

snip.

Do you have a source for this? as the NHIndustries site makes no mention of numbers of NH-90 helicopters to be purchaced. The Beehive site, the MOD site or the RNZAF, make no mention of numbers of helicopters to be brought of any type. Phil Goff does not mention anything about numbers of any helicopter type in this speech to the US Air Warfare College, visiting NZ on the 6th March.

And we are currently considering options for the replacement of our Vietnam-era Iroquois and Sioux helicopter fleets with medium and light utility helicopters. We are likely to purchase NH90s.

Link to speech on beehive web site

There is confirmation that the government is in negotiations over final numbers and costs, nothing else. This informtion has been common knowledge for sometime and can be found on the usual official sites.

 

[Rocco_NZ]

Purchase agreements

Hi Stuart

The purchase agreement I mentioned was specific to what the RNZAF is required to provide by government. When dishing out public funds, a purchase agreement is negiotiated by the Crown with the department in question. It's the mechanism which the Crown uses to specify exactly what level of service it is paying for.

So at the moment the RNZAF is only funded to provide 6 aircraft in the rotary force for overseas deployment. The balance are only funded to be operated domestically. In practice this means that only crews and support personnel sufficient to operate 6 deployed aircraft are funded. The balance of crews and support people in NZ won't be kept up to the same standard as deployed assets.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

Hi Stuart

The purchase agreement I mentioned was specific to what the RNZAF is required to provide by government. snipity snip

My mistake, I thought you referred to the purchase of the helicopters, not internal government arrangements.

 

[chrishorne]

The EC135 has a military variant called the EC635, which has all the armament options. The 135/635 would be of greater use to the NZDF as they have a greater lift capability that would supplement the NH90 nicely.

That is of course if a meaningful number are bought!

I agree the EC636 looks ideal for nz needs. Do wonder thou if something a bit more powerful would be a good idea. Getting a third type would be a nightmare in small numbers thou. Do wonder if a seasprite utility/gunship might be an option. Sadly doubt the development costs would be worth it unless kaman thinks they could sell it elsewhere as well. There was a gunship version in the sixies - useful looking aircraft. imagine what it could do with a bit of modern technology.

http://avia.russian.ee/helicopters_eng/kaman_tomahawk-r.html

 

[Rocco_NZ]

I agree the EC636 looks ideal for nz needs. Do wonder thou if something a bit more powerful would be a good idea. Getting a third type would be a nightmare in small numbers thou.

I actually think the real issue is what the cost/benefit ratio looks like for selling off the seasprites and purchasing the naval NH90 and having commonility accross the helicopter fleet.

 

[Lucasnz]

I actually think the real issue is what the cost/benefit ratio looks like for selling off the seasprites and purchasing the naval NH90 and having commonility accross the helicopter fleet.

It would have been a good idea if it had occurred 10 years ago. With the OPV's designed to take SH-2G and the MRV capable of 4 NH90 plus a SH-2G there disposal now would cause the navy a very big headache. There is also the isssue of whether they could be carried by the ANZAC, with minimal modification.

I do agree that it would be more benefical to operate a single type of helicopter, with a light UH platform for training.

 

[Rocco_NZ]

It would have been a good idea if it had occurred 10 years ago. With the OPV's designed to take SH-2G and the MRV capable of 4 NH90 plus a SH-2G there disposal now would cause the navy a very big headache. There is also the isssue of whether they could be carried by the ANZAC, with minimal modification.

If the Anzacs can carry a Seahawk a NH90 should fit OK. I could be wrong, but I believe the folded dimensions of the NH90 are actually smaller than the SH-2 in terms of overall length. Height is not an issue for the ANZAC hanger, so I don't think that would be an issue.The real question would be sufficient width I would think. Swapping the tools on board to suit another aircraft wouldn't be terribly expensive. I don't think selling the SH-2s would be much of an issue.

If the Endeavour replacement has a helicopter hanger (and I'm sure it will), the number of SH-2s avaiable for operations could become an issue. The question would then become one of which helicopter to buy more of to embark on the ships.

 

[Sea Toby]

I doubt seriously that both of the Anzacs along with both of the OPVs, and the one MRV will ever be deployed at the same time. Navies tend to rotate their ships about, so yes, even with 5 SeaSprites, a SeaSprite can be found for a new replenishment oiler. I believe the term is crossdecking.

I am wondering whether New Zealand returned the earlier F versions of the SeaSprites to America, or whether they kept a few around as a spare parts source? While not as up to date combat wise, one of these older SeaSprites would make an excellent workhorse suitable for a new replenishment oiler. If not, acquiring one cheaply would be idea.

 

[Rocco_NZ]

Training

Toby, your reply assumes that aircrews and aircraft are always available, while ships are not. Air crews must be trained and aircraft maintained. Just as ships must be certified as fit for deployment, so must pilots and aircraft - often as part of the same process. A key difference is that while a electronics technician can be trained without a ship, a pilot or aircraft maintainer can't be trained without an aircraft.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Has any thought of the implications of the NZ$ sliding? With the contract unsigned the price just got higher, unless the MOD has hedged.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Air Forces monthly has quoted the NZ MoD as going ahead with the NH90 in June/July 2006. Main points:

• Up to 8
• Negotiation taken so long because of declining NZ to the EURO
• Off the European production line
• minor changes to comm equipment to suit NZDF otherwise factory standard.
• Would like maintenance to come out of Brisbane.
• NZDF buys off the shelf, nothing fancy to reduce risk
• No mention of LUH!

So there you have it.

 

[stryker NZ]

bad news according to a news report i just saw apparently due to the posistion the NZ dollar is in and rising prices the government has just announced that the NH-90 project will cost $100 million more than had been put aside for it which could lead to decreased purchase numbers and more cut backs.

 

[Whiskyjack]

bad news according to a news report i just saw apparently due to the posistion the NZ dollar is in and rising prices the government has just announced that the NH-90 project will cost $100 million more than had been put aside for it which could lead to decreased purchase numbers and more cut backs.

Yes I am thinking that there will be 6 confirmed with 2-4 on option.

I am getting a wee bit pessimistic over the LUH as well not even a mention….which has me worried over numbers and type.