New Zealand Army

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks.
A new SF vehicle is on the horizon (it's in the DWP consultation doc), and although there has been no RfT issued, a supacat variant would be a logical contender.
Supacat is the logical contender for the SOV Lt and makes a lot of sense buying the same vehicle as SASR, SOV heavy to me will be really interesting with the Bushmaster also being a logical contender as well so could be a very interesting few years for the SAS first then regular Army to follow.

CD
 

maxwell

New Member
NZA military vechiles

I would appreciate some advice as to the nature of vehicles in service with the New Zealand Army.
The Army employs a complex array of vehicles. In the UK military vehicles are classified as A or B type.
An A vehicle is a combat land vehicle designed for offensive purposes.
B Vehicles are split into two fleets. The Green Fleet consists of a soft skinned vehicles not primarily designed for offensive purposes but which may in some cases be armoured for defensive purposes. The White Fleet are all other categories of B Vehicle which not categorised as Green Fleet.
I understand the New Zealand Army has the following A vehicles in service.
• General Dynamics Light Armored Vehicle III (LAV III)
I also understand that the Army has the following B: Green Fleet in service:
• Mercedes Benz 3248 Actros prime mover
• Mercedes Benz 2228/41 (being phased out)
• Stewart & Stephenson M1089 wrecker
• Man HX77 8 X 8 military truck (15 tonne) with trailors (30 tonne)
• Man HX58 6 X 6 military truck (9 tonne)
• Man HX60 4 X 4 military truck (6 tonne)
• Mercedes Benz Unimog U1700L (being phased out)
• Pinzgauer model 718 6 X 6 Light Operational Vehicle (LOV)
• Polaris MRZR4 light all terrain vehicles
• JCB High Mobility Engineer Excavators
One version of the Pinzgauer is armoured while the cabins on the Man HX series can also be armoured. The Man HX come in various guises:
• HX60 – cargo (some with winches and cranes), dump.
• HX58 – cargo (some with winches and cranes), fuel.
• HX77 – cargo (equipped with enhanced palletized loading system), recovery (?), rapidly emplaced bridge system.
The Man HX trucks are currently being introduced. I also understand that the Pinzgauer special operations vehicles in service with the SAS are planned to be replaced with two types – a 15 tonne vehicle such as the Thales Bushmaster and a 10 tonne vehicle such as the Supacat HMT Extenda high mobility transporter. Both these types are in service with the Australian Army. New artillery tractors replacing Unimogs are also expected.
I would very much appreciate any comments. Are there other “military” type vehicles in service. I expect there are military motorcycles but references are hard to find.
Thanks
max
 
Hypothetical

Regarding the IW replacement program. If we go for a conventional layout - is there anything to say we would necessarily go with a particular barrel length? Say 20" or 16"?
Does anyone know anything generally with this program that they are free to talk about?
And same with the pistol replacement anyone with some good guesses there?
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Regarding the IW replacement program. If we go for a conventional layout - is there anything to say we would necessarily go with a particular barrel length? Say 20" or 16"?
Does anyone know anything generally with this program that they are free to talk about?
And same with the pistol replacement anyone with some good guesses there?
The Rft states both barrel lengths anything else is with the Small Arms wing of the Combat School and nobody outside that organisation will know anything concrete.

CD
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Regarding the IW replacement program. If we go for a conventional layout - is there anything to say we would necessarily go with a particular barrel length? Say 20" or 16"?
Does anyone know anything generally with this program that they are free to talk about?
And same with the pistol replacement anyone with some good guesses there?
I don't claim any specialist knowledge but I imagine many of the contenders come with a number of barrel lengths. I think it would be ideal to procure a mix or some spare barrels in various lengths. Long barrels for range in open country (Middle east deployments), standard length as the baseline, and shorter barrels for SF, urban ops, vehicle crews, navy boarding teams, etc.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I don't claim any specialist knowledge but I imagine many of the contenders come with a number of barrel lengths. I think it would be ideal to procure a mix or some spare barrels in various lengths. Long barrels for range in open country (Middle east deployments), standard length as the baseline, and shorter barrels for SF, urban ops, vehicle crews, navy boarding teams, etc.
We have that now with the steyr so no reason why we would'nt have a requirement for future requirement ie tankies, certain ops have short barrels and infantry etc generally have standard length. Considerations should still largely remain the same with the new type.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Since we are getting there in terms of mobility and with a more than likely aqquisition of supacat and hopefully bushmaster platforms for SF (and therefore NZDF) I think there are still a few projects that need ticking off and squaring away in the land transport arena.

I guess the no brainer is the total inadequacy of armoured pinzgauer and whilst sufficient for an ET type op would actually prove a liability in an Afghan type conflict therefore covering off low intensity but not high intensity is not fullfilling it's full capability role. The soft skin version fullfills it's role but the unique and now orphan armoured version falls well short. The brits answer to their problem (vector) was the panther and since we have had recent success with brit (inspired) gear a possibility for a light armour replacement. Another obvious candidate would be hawkei depending on how their trials go.

The main hurdle would be govt commiting to their replacement to begin with but I think Afghan has shown us there is more than merit in its consideration at least.

I have also been following the Canucks LAV 6.0 project and wondering if this is maybe a path we could tag onto the end of for NZLAV mid life upgrade (@60 completed out of a planned 600). I do like the V hull, running gear, sensor upgrades and would give us an oppourtunity to convert some to other variants properly in terms of hull conversion. I guess this project will come down to the level of which govt is prepared to fund the upgrade and what exactly they feel we need, or do not need. Maybe funds raised from selling the 'excess 35' could offset the costs somewhat.

I feel a panther, bushmaster, NZLAV(6.0) mix would better suit our needs and more adequately cover our bases in terms of armour and along with options such as improved sensors, mobility and RWS do so more effectively, efficiently and more importantly safely.

There are a few other more minor projects in the range (recovery, AF tankers etc) however IMO these are some of the more substantial and pressing for now or to at least begin the inevitably long planning process.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I guess the no brainer is the total inadequacy of armoured pinzgauer and whilst sufficient for an ET type op would actually prove a liability in an Afghan type conflict therefore covering off low intensity but not high intensity is not fullfilling it's full capability role. The soft skin version fullfills it's role but the unique and now orphan armoured version falls well short. The brits answer to their problem (vector) was the panther and since we have had recent success with brit (inspired) gear a possibility for a light armour replacement. Another obvious candidate would be hawkei depending on how their trials go.

The main hurdle would be govt commiting to their replacement to begin with but I think Afghan has shown us there is more than merit in its consideration at least.

I have also been following the Canucks LAV 6.0 project and wondering if this is maybe a path we could tag onto the end of for NZLAV mid life upgrade (@60 completed out of a planned 600). I do like the V hull, running gear, sensor upgrades and would give us an oppourtunity to convert some to other variants properly in terms of hull conversion. I guess this project will come down to the level of which govt is prepared to fund the upgrade and what exactly they feel we need, or do not need. Maybe funds raised from selling the 'excess 35' could offset the costs somewhat.

I feel a panther, bushmaster, NZLAV(6.0) mix would better suit our needs and more adequately cover our bases in terms of armour and along with options such as improved sensors, mobility and RWS do so more effectively, efficiently and more importantly safely.

There are a few other more minor projects in the range (recovery, AF tankers etc) however IMO these are some of the more substantial and pressing for now or to at least begin the inevitably long planning process.
I have been following LAV 6.0 as well (mainly via Defence Technology review). Aust is looking to upgrade or replace their ASLAVs and M113s, and LAV 6.0 conversion is a contender. If they went down this path, we could maybe try an piggyback off this for a discount. The fact that LAV III's (NZLAV is a version of this) can be converted to LAV 6.0 may be a plus if we are still trying to offload some of our 'excess' stock.

I agree re the Pinzgauer. Panther looks good. So does hawkei at there early stages. However both are limited in terms of capacity to I would still argue that we would need something larger as well (IE Bushmaster type) for operations and deployments. Bushmaster can carry 9 passengers, and ambo versions are available.

I would also argue we need to look at tracked mobility again. Swamp, jungle, monsoon seasons, post disaster (flood, tidal wave, earthquakes) HADR- all might limit wheeled mobility. ST kinetics bronco (warthog in UK service) is balistic, mine, IED protected, is lighter than a LAV and amphibious. I know many will argue that our wheelled vehicles can get to 95% pof places and helos can do the rest, and that this debate was settled when we aquired the LAVs. But that was a while ago. Im not saying that we need tracked, I would just like to see this re-evaluated by NZDF.

NZ is participating in Talisman Sabre 2015 in Oz too, (with the yanks and Japan). Apparently we are sending 500 personnel. Hopefully some vehicles as well. Would be a valuable opportunity for NZDF to get some hands on asseessment with the Bushmaster.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I have been following LAV 6.0 as well (mainly via Defence Technology review). Aust is looking to upgrade or replace their ASLAVs and M113s, and LAV 6.0 conversion is a contender. If they went down this path, we could maybe try an piggyback off this for a discount. The fact that LAV III's (NZLAV is a version of this) can be converted to LAV 6.0 may be a plus if we are still trying to offload some of our 'excess' stock.

I agree re the Pinzgauer. Panther looks good. So does hawkei at there early stages. However both are limited in terms of capacity to I would still argue that we would need something larger as well (IE Bushmaster type) for operations and deployments. Bushmaster can carry 9 passengers, and ambo versions are available.

I would also argue we need to look at tracked mobility again. Swamp, jungle, monsoon seasons, post disaster (flood, tidal wave, earthquakes) HADR- all might limit wheeled mobility. ST kinetics bronco (warthog in UK service) is balistic, mine, IED protected, is lighter than a LAV and amphibious. I know many will argue that our wheelled vehicles can get to 95% pof places and helos can do the rest, and that this debate was settled when we aquired the LAVs. But that was a while ago. Im not saying that we need tracked, I would just like to see this re-evaluated by NZDF.

NZ is participating in Talisman Sabre 2015 in Oz too, (with the yanks and Japan). Apparently we are sending 500 personnel. Hopefully some vehicles as well. Would be a valuable opportunity for NZDF to get some hands on asseessment with the Bushmaster.
Oh yes I agree pinzgauer is not even in the same league as bushmaster which is why I am suggesting panther to replace that, bushmaster would fill the void in between armoured pinz and NZLAV. Much like how Aus will possibly have hawkei-bushmaster-ASLAV(or new version) we could have a similar org ie light-medium-heavy (NZ context).

I think we still need a 'light' armoured capability for those specific tasks and roles such as recon, liasion and GP.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Regarding the IW replacement program. If we go for a conventional layout - is there anything to say we would necessarily go with a particular barrel length? Say 20" or 16"?
Does anyone know anything generally with this program that they are free to talk about?
And same with the pistol replacement anyone with some good guesses there?
shane
Accoreding to the Defence Ministry website, the Trials phase of the individual weapon replacement project ran from 2 March - 1 June, i.e. yesterday.
Individual Weapon Replacement [Ministry of Defence NZ]

It will take at least another six months for commercial negotiations to take place, various procedural hoops to be jumped through and a deal signed. Then the replacements have to be manufactured and shipped to NZ.

The NZ Army website says (under their 'Firepower' section) that a new weapon will be introduced 'from 2017', which sounds about right.

NZ Army - Firepower

Interestingly, the Pistol section says
The Personal Protection Weapon Replacement Project will introduce a new 9mm pistol into service from 2015 which will modernise NZDF’s pistol fleet to the most recent standards.
Given I haven't noticed an RFI or RFP, I wonder if that is correct? Another possibility it that they will piggy-back on a weapon purchase by another country, and skip any NZ-specific trials and evaluation. If they do that, the current UK adoption of the Glock would be the obvious deal to partner with, as NZ did with the MAN trucks. Both manufactured in Austria, for what its worth.

Glock 17 9mm pistols replace Browning for UK forces - BBC News
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
TV3 has screened an investigation into the Battle of Baghak.

The untold story of the Battle of Baghak | TVShows | 3 News
To my mind this just rehashes soe of the questions that were asked earlier.

Also:
Top brass wants to ban serving soldiers from telling war stories | Stuff.co.nz
I watched it last night and there was nothing new in it. The video they showed I had seen before because it was on YouTube at some stage so a mountain out of a midget molehill. There seems to be a campaign of defence force bashing underway again in the MSM with a story the other day claiming obesity in the NZDF.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I watched it last night and there was nothing new in it. The video they showed I had seen before because it was on YouTube at some stage so a mountain out of a midget molehill. There seems to be a campaign of defence force bashing underway again in the MSM with a story the other day claiming obesity in the NZDF.

Apparently according to the journos there is 20 mins of footage out there.

The 'analyst' the interview has been in NZ media before:
NZ troops beg for borrow or steal decent gear full interview | Politics | 3 News

He's also in a US style reality conservation show starring Peter Bethune.

Regarding the obesity epidemic, BMI is widely regarded as a flawed tool. Muscle weighs more than fat. Polynesians tend to score higher due to their build, even though they are not neccisarily overweight. The article states that Richie McCaw is BMI 30.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Regarding the obesity epidemic, BMI is widely regarded as a flawed tool. Muscle weighs more than fat. Polynesians tend to score higher due to their build, even though they are not neccisarily overweight. The article states that Richie McCaw is BMI 30.
I don't think anyone can deny there is an obesity epidemic in NZ, especially amongst the maori and pacific island populations. When I was back in NZ I couldn't get over the vast numbers of people waddling around, it was insane, in Norway I'm a fairly big guy, back in NZ I felt like I was about average size.

BMI is an easy one to use, another easy one is waist circumference, either way kiwis are getting bigger every year.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I don't think anyone can deny there is an obesity epidemic in NZ, especially amongst the maori and pacific island populations. When I was back in NZ I couldn't get over the vast numbers of people waddling around, it was insane, in Norway I'm a fairly big guy, back in NZ I felt like I was about average size.

BMI is an easy one to use, another easy one is waist circumference, either way kiwis are getting bigger every year.
While this is a bit OT, obesity is an increasingly large problem for much of the developed world. Especially for countries/regions where the average activities are becoming more sedentary, which is not just a Kiwi problem.

Also yes, BMI scores can be used as a tool to determine obesity, it is just not a very accurate one. A short, very muscular weightlifter/body-builder can fairly easily have a BMI indicating obesity or overweight, yet have a very low BFP (body fat percentage).

BMI is reasonably decent tool for studies of populations, but not for individuals, because it is based on averages. When looking at individuals, it is better to measure their BFP, and/or waist circumference to height ratio.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Apparently according to the journos there is 20 mins of footage out there.

The 'analyst' the interview has been in NZ media before:
NZ troops beg for borrow or steal decent gear full interview | Politics | 3 News

He's also in a US style reality conservation show starring Peter Bethune.

Regarding the obesity epidemic, BMI is widely regarded as a flawed tool. Muscle weighs more than fat. Polynesians tend to score higher due to their build, even though they are not neccisarily overweight. The article states that Richie McCaw is BMI 30.
Actually that story is quite correct. When the PRT first went to Bamiyan they had leased Toyota Hiace vans which they gas axed the body at the back so the gunner could have a field of fire. They never took vehicles over with them. When the NZSAS went to Afghanistan in 2002 - 03 they had to arrange their own vehicle transport for their long patrols. They had an NCO who was familiar with US Army logistic procedures and had a contact in a US Army vehicle pool in the Middle East. This contact knew of about 6 - 8 Hummers looking for a new home that found there way to NZSAS in Kabul with appropriate accompanying paperwork. Then they acquired a couple of BMW 650 (IIRC) bikes off the German special forces who were returning to Germany and gifted them to the NZSAS. It's criminal that our forces have to do things like that.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Actually that story is quite correct. When the PRT first went to Bamiyan they had leased Toyota Hiace vans which they gas axed the body at the back so the gunner could have a field of fire. They never took vehicles over with them. When the NZSAS went to Afghanistan in 2002 - 03 they had to arrange their own vehicle transport for their long patrols. They had an NCO who was familiar with US Army logistic procedures and had a contact in a US Army vehicle pool in the Middle East. This contact knew of about 6 - 8 Hummers looking for a new home that found there way to NZSAS in Kabul with appropriate accompanying paperwork. Then they acquired a couple of BMW 650 (IIRC) bikes off the German special forces who were returning to Germany and gifted them to the NZSAS. It's criminal that our forces have to do things like that.
loved to have seen the look on the counter person when they handed back the leased Hiace vehicles (Hertz car hire:dance:D) "ah can we have our deposit back now thanks"
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Actually that story is quite correct. When the PRT first went to Bamiyan they had leased Toyota Hiace vans which they gas axed the body at the back so the gunner could have a field of fire. They never took vehicles over with them. When the NZSAS went to Afghanistan in 2002 - 03 they had to arrange their own vehicle transport for their long patrols. They had an NCO who was familiar with US Army logistic procedures and had a contact in a US Army vehicle pool in the Middle East. This contact knew of about 6 - 8 Hummers looking for a new home that found there way to NZSAS in Kabul with appropriate accompanying paperwork. Then they acquired a couple of BMW 650 (IIRC) bikes off the German special forces who were returning to Germany and gifted them to the NZSAS. It's criminal that our forces have to do things like that.
So all the pics of NZSAS pins in a'stan are fom later on then?
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Pins weren't acquired until later.and are you sure that they were SAS ones?
Yes they were definitely NZSAS Pinz 2005 rotation flown direct from Auckland to Bagram Airbase by C17 there are enough photos of them in service in Afghanistan.

CD
 
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