New Version Of AL-Khalid MBT Soon

[umair]

Ever bother to check the local production numbers as well? The global tank market also includes projected domestic demand.

 

[BlueWater]

First thing first. We don't encourage any discussions regards A vs B or A getting scared because of B's weapons. So don't drag India into it regardless of both countries' military postures towards each other.

Secondly AK-1 evaluation prototype is already with PA & under trials.

Cez Who??????? You????? AK-1 is currently being designed at HIT.

And whats wrong with a comparison of A vs B? Comparison is the essence of improvement and is a global trend! So wrap your ''patronizing tone'' around yourself and ''park it'' dude cause being a Major General here don't mean jack!!:nutkick

 

[eckherl]

The AK1 will be a superior tank to the Indian T-90S! Wait until the prototype comes out later this year and is handed over to the Army! Not only our Army will be excited to test it but I think the Indian boys from the other side will be shocked to see (or not see!!) AK1 on the battlefield!

Enough Said!

P.S - FORECAST INTERNATIONAL which is a US based think tank for global arms supplies has recently projected AL-KHALID to be the TOP MOST SELLING TANK IN THE WORLD in the coming years! Don't believe me? Google It and find out!

Okay - what type of capabilities does a AK1 have that sets it apart from a Russian T-90S, it is my assumption that both tanks are very capable.

 

[BlueWater]

Okay - what type of capabilities does a AK1 have that sets it apart from a Russian T-90S, it is my assumption that both tanks are very capable.

While at this stage I cannot (sorry!) tell you the exact tech details of the stuff to be installed on the AK1 but I can surely tell you that the AK1 will have a far better (and cheaper at that) defensive capability against Laser Guided Weapons, better HP, increased range of firepower, it will be quicker with lower weight compared to T-90S and its dynamic FCS will be top-of-the-line European made! More of a east-meets-west kinda technology. The exterior may be predominantly Chinese made but the interior will have western systems.

Wait until the end of the year before the ''official'' version and brochures are launched also for the export market by HIT.

 

[umair]

In the half decade of this board's life, Sabre has always been cent% right on Pakistan related topics and issues.
We'd take his word over yours in these matters everytime.
Why because he has credibility and credentials, you on the other hand don't.
And congrats on pissing off the whole mod/admin team.

 

[Skywatcher]

Incidentally, why would Saudi Arabia want the Al Khalid?

They already have the M1A1 Abrams.

 

[eckherl]

Incidentally, why would Saudi Arabia want the Al Khalid?

They already have the M1A1 Abrams.

We may never know the exact reasons why Saudi Arabia did not go for Al Khalid and all we can do is speculate, one reason I speculate is because of the logistical burden that it may of placed on them, please keep in mind that they use western mbts.

Also - they do not use M1A1`s but M1A2`s.

 

[otester]

- Al-Khalid's gun at 14 degrees above can shoot football sized target at 14 Km! Thats right gentlemen, I made them say this twice! Thats the accuracy for you.

All tanks can claim that, not really a good example of accuracy.

- Effective range against Tanks is 2-3.5km

That's better.

Probably 2km at best vs. a 2x2 target since no MRS is present.

 

[eckherl]

- Al-Khalid's gun at 14 degrees above can shoot football sized target at 14 Km! Thats right gentlemen, I made them say this twice! Thats the accuracy for you.

All tanks can claim that, not really a good example of accuracy.



That's better.

Probably 2km at best vs. a 2x2 target since no MRS is present.

Is it a safe bet to assume that MRS stands for muzzle reference system, and if so why do you think that it plays a factor in engagement range and target size.

 

[otester]

Is it a safe bet to assume that MRS stands for muzzle reference system, and if so why do you think that it plays a factor in engagement range and target size.

Indeed your assumption is correct.

The MRS adds that extra bit of precision to the shot giving it better accuracy at further range, if the barrel is out of line just slightly like with tanks without MRS's then this creates a larger field of were the shot could land. The ballistics computer uses information from the MRS such as position due to thermal changes causing the barrel to droop slightly to take into account when firing to insure an accurate hit.

It is claimed the Al-Khalid is fitted with MRS's on wikipedia but I have not seen one fitted on any of the ones in the photos I've seen so far.

The only way I could be wrong is if 125mm guns are just sub-standard which I think is highly unlikely.

 

[eckherl]

Indeed your assumption is correct.

The MRS adds that extra bit of precision to the shot giving it better accuracy at further range, if the barrel is out of line just slightly like with tanks without MRS's then this creates a larger field of were the shot could land. The ballistics computer uses information from the MRS such as position due to thermal changes causing the barrel to droop slightly to take into account when firing to insure an accurate hit.

It is claimed the Al-Khalid is fitted with MRS's on wikipedia but I have not seen one fitted on any of the ones in the photos I've seen so far.

The only way I could be wrong is if 125mm guns are just sub-standard which I think is highly unlikely.

There is nothing better that a precision boresight for a tank FCS, all the MRS is used for is a quick make up of loss of boresight from a tank that has fired multiple rounds and they do not have adequate time to perform a more precision boresight, most modern tanks will start experiencing loss of boresight after firing 15 to 25 maingun rounds, with the MRS when activated it will give you a reticle in relation to where the end of the maingun is, it is a matter of toggling your FCS (gunners) reticle into the reticle shown thru the MRS mirror. With this you will super impose the two reticles together, this will not give you 100% accuracy and will still more than likely be .5 to 1 mil off in true aim of the maingun. Also a maingun will experience thermal bending due to the atmospheric conditions that it is exposed to.

 

[otester]

There is nothing better that a precision boresight for a tank FCS, all the MRS is used for is a quick make up of loss of boresight from a tank that has fired multiple rounds and they do not have adequate time to perform a more precision boresight, most modern tanks will start experiencing loss of boresight after firing 15 to 25 maingun rounds, with the MRS when activated it will give you a reticle in relation to where the end of the maingun is, it is a matter of toggling your FCS (gunners) reticle into the reticle shown thru the MRS mirror. With this you will super impose the two reticles together, this will not give you 100% accuracy and will still more than likely be .5 to 1 mil off in true aim of the maingun. Also a maingun will experience thermal bending due to the atmospheric conditions that it is exposed to.

So by the sounds of it the shot would be even more out of line after 15-25 shots without an MRS, worse than 2km (2x2 target)?

What is another factor in this? Is it just the main guns are poor?

 

[eckherl]

So by the sounds of it the shot would be even more out of line after 15-25 shots without an MRS, worse than 2km (2x2 target)?

What is another factor in this? Is it just the main guns are poor?

Russian main guns up until the early nineties did in fact have accuracy issues when exposed to firing of multiple rounds, here are some reasons for this:

1. Poor manufacturing process
2. Length of main gun tube
3. Poor gunners sights, excessive amounts of sight parallex in correlation to the gun at extended ranges.
4. Poor main gun stabilization sytem, caused excessive amounts of vibration to the gunners FCS and main gun, thus experiencing frequent loss of Boresight.

Things are a whole lot different today for Russian designed main guns where the quality control standards have been raised to a point that they have just as good killing power as a L44 or L55 at extended engagement ranges, it is going to come down to what bullet type and armored vehicle shows up to the fight. Two of the best 125mm main guns that are rolling on the scene would be the Russian 2A46M-1/4 purposely designed now for the T-90, it is a darn good gun tube that was originally designed for the T-80 series, it still has a caliber length of 52 calibers though. The next main gun that deserves recognition would be the Ukrainian KBA3 which is only 48 calibers in length but offers better performance over the Russian 2A46M-1 when firing certain KE projectiles. Other things that Russia has done to fix the accuracy issues with their tanks are listed as follows:

1. Better FCS and sights.
2. Better quality control in the manufacturing process.
3. Better gun tube wear factor with the chrome process being used.
4. Better thermal shroud for the gun tube.
5. Better stabilization system in 3 axis.

All these qualities would be great for a tank that has a precision boresight, after extensive round expenditures this could be a issue for shot dispersion at extended ranges, this is why I think that the Ukrainians have gone to a true MRS for the T-84. Look for China and Pakistan to adopt using MRS systems also.

 

[Piya]

hmmmm...

From Wikipedia:

Armament and fire control
Al-Khalid is designed with a 125mm (length: 48 calibers) smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and Russian-made 9M119 Refleks ATGM (AT-11 Sniper, also produced in China under licence). Al-Khalid is also one of the few tanks in the world that use DU rounds. The DU round used by Al-Khalid is the indigenous Pakistani made Niaza 125mm DU round (armor penetration: 550 mm at 2 km). Al-Khalid is equipped with a muzzle reference system and dual-axis stabilization. Elevation and azimuth control is achieved by electro-hydraulic power drives. The automatic ammunition-handling system for the main gun has a 24-round ready-to-fire magazine and can load and fire at a rate of eight rounds per minute.[5]

 

[otester]

From Wikipedia:

Armament and fire control
Al-Khalid is designed with a 125mm (length: 48 calibers) smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and Russian-made 9M119 Refleks ATGM (AT-11 Sniper, also produced in China under licence). Al-Khalid is also one of the few tanks in the world that use DU rounds. The DU round used by Al-Khalid is the indigenous Pakistani made Niaza 125mm DU round (armor penetration: 550 mm at 2 km). Al-Khalid is equipped with a muzzle reference system and dual-axis stabilization. Elevation and azimuth control is achieved by electro-hydraulic power drives. The automatic ammunition-handling system for the main gun has a 24-round ready-to-fire magazine and can load and fire at a rate of eight rounds per minute.[5]

Well done to Pakistan for making a APFSDS DU round, but on paper it performs worse than the 3BM42M. Seems to be in the same league as the M829A1, although the M829A1 performed very well in the Gulf War against T-72Ms that in theory had 500-600mm (RHAe) but was still able to slice through two of them, so it could well be that the theoretical values of RHAe for the M829A1 are either a heavy underestimation and the Niaza is just an under-achiever or they both suffer an RHAe underestimation but excel in combat.

 

[eckherl]

Well done to Pakistan for making a APFSDS DU round, but on paper it performs worse than the 3BM42M. Seems to be in the same league as the M829A1, although the M829A1 performed very well in the Gulf War against T-72Ms that in theory had 500-600mm (RHAe) but was still able to slice through two of them, so it could well be that the theoretical values of RHAe for the M829A1 are either a heavy underestimation and the Niaza is just an under-achiever or they both suffer an RHAe underestimation but excel in combat.

I am quite confident that the real performance level of a real M829A1 is classified along with Pakistans latest KE penetrator, one should take what gets conveyed to the general public with a grain of salt. Some of the performance levels that I read are quite comical.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Do you in your opinion think that the 48 calibre gun on Al Khalid tank is the Ukrinian KBA3 ?

If not then Pakistan will most likely go for it towards installing it on Al Khalid Batch two. If the Engine can be bought then so can be the gun.

Not to mention inhouse production of the gun since Pakistan already produces their own version of gun with Chinese assistance.

 

[otester]

Do you in your opinion think that the 48 calibre gun on Al Khalid tank is the Ukrinian KBA3 ?

If not then Pakistan will most likely go for it towards installing it on Al Khalid Batch two. If the Engine can be bought then so can be the gun.

Not to mention inhouse production of the gun since Pakistan already produces their own version of gun with Chinese assistance.

Then I would assume it is the Chinese version? Which apparently is meant to be a high-pressure version for there 3rd Gen. DU rounds which are meant to be very good, 850mm RHA, Western sources state, Chinese state 960mm.

 

[kay_man]

welcome to defence talk seaprince

i thought the researchers were working on AL-KHALID 2 as mentioned by "yess" not the al-khalid -1 .

also good thing you guys are changing electronics coz chinese electronics are rubbish ( telling you from my personal experiences with chinese products) .

 

[eckherl]

Do you in your opinion think that the 48 calibre gun on Al Khalid tank is the Ukrinian KBA3 ?

If not then Pakistan will most likely go for it towards installing it on Al Khalid Batch two. If the Engine can be bought then so can be the gun.

Not to mention inhouse production of the gun since Pakistan already produces their own version of gun with Chinese assistance.

If they are using 48 caliber length barrels then yes they are Ukrainian design, China does not produce a 48 caliber length barrel, smallest Chinese 125 mm would be 50 caliber.