Incognito129
Banned Member
You are dreaming. Australia has no chance of being any kind of power. 20 million population does not simply allow that.
The only way I see Australia as a realised power is through some secret alien technology.
New major military powers
- Thread starter mexsoldier
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The only way I see Australia as a realised power is through some secret alien technology.
I dunno.
Australia is really advanced in a few areas (OTHR, really fast engines, conventional submarines).
Being a power isn't always about having massive land armies. Armies of ten million, supported by nations that can't feed its citizens.
More so if you already have a continental sized fortress located far away. So that 20 million people can focus on building a defence force that can move around and deploy 100% overseas.
Not spread out across its borders, incapable of moving, locked in a stalemate with its neighbors.
Australia is really advanced in a few areas (OTHR, really fast engines, conventional submarines).
Being a power isn't always about having massive land armies. Armies of ten million, supported by nations that can't feed its citizens.
More so if you already have a continental sized fortress located far away. So that 20 million people can focus on building a defence force that can move around and deploy 100% overseas.
Not spread out across its borders, incapable of moving, locked in a stalemate with its neighbors.
One has to remember that the Australian defense industry is far away from being able to produce a countable number of fully self developed equipment.
They are producing high-tech components but not more.
Being able to develop and produce a countable number of systems on your own is a main requirement.
They are producing high-tech components but not more.
Being able to develop and produce a countable number of systems on your own is a main requirement.
Why?
Why have independant, inefficent factories that churn out inferior products.
Australia makes its own vechicals, its own weaponry, can certainly produce its own missiles if required. Nuka, Bushmaster vechicals, collins, ships, it can certainly build its own as much as any other nation. It finds niche applications where it can build proberly the best solution, better than off the shelf stuff. Australia has access to top level stuff so it can improve and adjust its own bought systems.
Why not utilise existing production. Sure have stores that would last any conflict bar a 6-7 year world war. At which point you could establish factories to meet requirements. Australia has all the oil, coal, uranium, steel, aluminium, food,
Take a look at japan, a simple blockade or water threat would stop all resorce shipping. All the independant manufacturing accounts for nothing, when there are no resources to manufacturer. This is why the joined WWII No oil to use, etc. Singapore? How about a land war in europe, france? gone..
Australia is in the position to project power onto other nations, that certainly cannot project power onto Australia. It runs its region which covers more area than europe or africa.
And it has the political and social will to do it when required. (unlike Japan, Germany, or Korea or Spain). And will soon have the capability to do it independantly of any other power.
Why have independant, inefficent factories that churn out inferior products.
Australia makes its own vechicals, its own weaponry, can certainly produce its own missiles if required. Nuka, Bushmaster vechicals, collins, ships, it can certainly build its own as much as any other nation. It finds niche applications where it can build proberly the best solution, better than off the shelf stuff. Australia has access to top level stuff so it can improve and adjust its own bought systems.
Why not utilise existing production. Sure have stores that would last any conflict bar a 6-7 year world war. At which point you could establish factories to meet requirements. Australia has all the oil, coal, uranium, steel, aluminium, food,
Take a look at japan, a simple blockade or water threat would stop all resorce shipping. All the independant manufacturing accounts for nothing, when there are no resources to manufacturer. This is why the joined WWII No oil to use, etc. Singapore? How about a land war in europe, france? gone..
Australia is in the position to project power onto other nations, that certainly cannot project power onto Australia. It runs its region which covers more area than europe or africa.
And it has the political and social will to do it when required. (unlike Japan, Germany, or Korea or Spain). And will soon have the capability to do it independantly of any other power.
yeah i agree with stingray, australia has the ability to produce for its own specific requirements. where australia falls behind other world powers is that other countries like us china russia etc are all producing most of the worlds tanks, planes etc and exporting them whereas aus is making what it needs for itself and doing it very well.
For sure China can spew out tanks at a rate that aus cant consider matching but what is that going to get them. a massisve amount of low quality poorly made armour that will probably be manned by untrained conscripts.
For sure China can spew out tanks at a rate that aus cant consider matching but what is that going to get them. a massisve amount of low quality poorly made armour that will probably be manned by untrained conscripts.
I don't see why home production of every single item is absolutely essential.
Australia has enough manufacturing industry to easily outproduce its own requirement for equipment. It maintains enough local knowledge and enough development to be entirely relevant. Much of this gets licenced to other nations.
Australia is gearing itself up to project power over the region and keep china out of the game.
I was say that makes it some sort of power.
Australia has enough manufacturing industry to easily outproduce its own requirement for equipment. It maintains enough local knowledge and enough development to be entirely relevant. Much of this gets licenced to other nations.
Australia is gearing itself up to project power over the region and keep china out of the game.
I was say that makes it some sort of power.
No, Australia defenitely doesn't have the knowledge to produce everything on their own even if they wanted.
As a 1st world country with 20 million people they are for sure able to build up a self supplying defense industry. But this would need time and money. Lots of it.
By now if foreign imports of weapons would be stopped Australia could not suddenly start to produce its own weapons and equipment.
It would take a lot of time and money not only to install the industrial production lines but more important to do the research needed for being able to produce a wide catalogue of modern weapons and equipment.
Just show me some examples of complex weapons system (Or even a less complex ones) in Australian service which are completely developed and build in Australia.
For sure Australia is THE major regional power and is on a good way of being able to project power in its region.
But that's it.
And one has to be honest.
Australias competitors in the race for regional power are not the biggest ones in the world.
As a 1st world country with 20 million people they are for sure able to build up a self supplying defense industry. But this would need time and money. Lots of it.
By now if foreign imports of weapons would be stopped Australia could not suddenly start to produce its own weapons and equipment.
It would take a lot of time and money not only to install the industrial production lines but more important to do the research needed for being able to produce a wide catalogue of modern weapons and equipment.
Just show me some examples of complex weapons system (Or even a less complex ones) in Australian service which are completely developed and build in Australia.
For sure Australia is THE major regional power and is on a good way of being able to project power in its region.
But that's it.
And one has to be honest.
Australias competitors in the race for regional power are not the biggest ones in the world.
That's the same with every other country. For China though,that threshold would have to be much higher before it ever requires conscription. Besides the over 1.2 million PLA, there is also the 1.3 million PAP, which acts as national police, militia and national guard, which is also voluntary.
And there are countries with conscription, and yet their standards are very high. Singapore, Israel, Switzerland and South Africa are among these.
How would the weapon imports stop. Some sort of blockade of Australia? Pfft. The USN couldn't blockade the entire continent. Sure, you can blockade smaller countries, like say Korea, or maybe even Japan. And Island continent the size of the USA? Can not be done. You couldn't block air or shipping into Australia. This isn't germany or France. It would be like trying to block all shipping to western europe. but bigger and harder.
Australia was a key supplier of arms and resources. So Australia can counter the loss of factories with in a year or two, other countries cannot counter the loss of Australian resources. And Australia supplies a lot of resources to a lot of countries.
Australian developments:
Collins - Although initally a swedish design (gotland) the end product is so different its like saying a F-22 is the same as a B-29. Even the origional boat 1 welds were redone in Australia, entire technologies were developed in Australia and licenced to major players (UK and US) for things like signature management (see GF for more). Australia intends to back this up with the 2025 sub program that is entirely indigionous.
Bush master - very good vechical
JORN - The best OTHR system in the world. So good and reliable the US wants to tap its GMS into it.
Wave percing cats, hypersonic rockets (world leaders), uranium enrichment Australia is world leaders in technology. With the best methods and equipment.
We don't try to outproduce tanks against the US or russia because that is a silly game to play. Besides, tanks are not used often in the entire region, in any conflict. But many see it as a essential capability.
Sure the other regional players pale in comparison to Australia. But there are some still mighty countries (for example bigger and stronger than many middle east nations) in that mix. Australia projects power over more of the globe than India and China combined. And it has done so for the past 50 years+.
Its only where Australia's projection brushes up off the coast of china, India, Japan, Russia, USA is there real areas that Australia would have difficulty projecting power. That makes a good hunk of the globe, about a 1/4 of it. That said Australia was freely moving its assets in Soviet waters during the cold war. F-111's have a very long reach, as do carriers, Australian radar coverage etc.
yeah i spose your right. however the point i was trying to make is that australia can produce most of what it needs domestically. for example the f-88 aussteyr and the minimi are produced in lithgow australia and the ANZACs were manufactured entirely in aus. 2 of the FFGs were made in aus as well as all of the collins subs and the armidale patrol boats. also the legacy bugs were assembled in australia i think.
But whats the point of this , are you saying Australia has the capability to become a great power?
In the Far future it might , but at the moment there are nowhere near , their army is small for now , their economy is growing slowly , they are top 20 , so in the future they might be strong but they don't need all that to protect their interests anyway.
@Stingray
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to downplay Australias importance or its capabilities.
As I said Australia is THE major regional player in its region.
I also said that as a fully developed 1st world country, deeply implemented into the western sphere, with 20 million people they have the ability to buy everything they want and to build many items by themselfs IF they wanted to.
But getting the necessary scientific and industrial base to go build AND develop mots of its weapons and equipment without foreign help would need a massive boost in spending and it would need time.
But right now Australia is not a major military player in a worldwide context (Why should they I would be happy with what they achieved till now).
And the things you mentioned, Collins, Bushmaster (Not a true Aussie design), etc., are not much compared to the big weapons producing countries out there.
I never talked about Australia being blockaded by anybody. But when you are so dependend on others for your weapons and equipment (You cannot deny that it is the case with Australia today) your suppliers can put you under pressure.
You cannot really perform a major military operation against the will of your supppliers.
And this independence is strictly needed if Australia would want to rise above its status of a US related regional power.
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to downplay Australias importance or its capabilities.
As I said Australia is THE major regional player in its region.
I also said that as a fully developed 1st world country, deeply implemented into the western sphere, with 20 million people they have the ability to buy everything they want and to build many items by themselfs IF they wanted to.
But getting the necessary scientific and industrial base to go build AND develop mots of its weapons and equipment without foreign help would need a massive boost in spending and it would need time.
But right now Australia is not a major military player in a worldwide context (Why should they I would be happy with what they achieved till now).
And the things you mentioned, Collins, Bushmaster (Not a true Aussie design), etc., are not much compared to the big weapons producing countries out there.
I never talked about Australia being blockaded by anybody. But when you are so dependend on others for your weapons and equipment (You cannot deny that it is the case with Australia today) your suppliers can put you under pressure.
You cannot really perform a major military operation against the will of your supppliers.
And this independence is strictly needed if Australia would want to rise above its status of a US related regional power.
There's a big difference between assembling imported subassemblies into a foreign-designed aircraft & being able to make it yourself. Like the difference between assembling flat-pack Ikea furniture, & making the whole thing yourself, from logs & lumps of raw metal (for the screws).
Same with the ships. What's the import percentage in the (Swedish-designed) Collins subs?
Australia makes some excellent stuff, but has niche capabilities, not across the board. And with an economy much smaller than those of Spain, Canada, Brazil, S. Korea & Italy, let alone India, China & Japan, it is not, in the foreseeable future, going to be in the great power league, despite its geographical advantages.
Well, yes. But we aren't talking about Australia out producing the US, Russia, India or China. Countries people are talking about are Korea, Brazil etc.
I think you could argue Australia is at a simular level of capability. With less of a manufacturing emphasis, and more of one of development and research.
But who is completely independant of the USA? Russia.. China licence many/all designs from Russia. Who is free from the major powers? France, maybe, but then they are reliant on other smaller subsystems, if not entire subassembiles. Uk is just a slave to the US idelogy?
I think its more important for Australia to get by with out US assistance than against US wishes. There is a big difference between going it alone and the US providing no/little assistance or actually trying to face off against the USA on a issue where the US imposes sanctions against Australia.
I can't imagine Australia ever having interests so different from the US on a issue, that wouldn't be condem the US internationally.
But say a mission bigger than Timor, with no US assistance. Something like Securing west Iranya against Indonesian forces. That would be massive capability. That would assert Australia as a powerful, independant power. US is commited to Indonesia and Australia so concivably sit the whole thing out, or atleast initially if deployed else where.
Given that most countries can't even "go it alone" with store bought systems, the requirement of completely indigionous development and manufacturing of every single item seems a mute point. As neither India nor China can claim such capability. Neither have a true blue water navy.
I belive Australia is trying to set itself for such a target.
Which is a big call. Could France, UK, Russia, China etc face off against a country with 300 million people and conduct a multi faceted opposed amphib operation? Doubtfully. Never been done by any of them. Not even simular attempts.
Australia can provide two destroyer escort to its two highly capable LHD's. It is seeking several large RoRo to assist. It can screen its task group with its own submarines in a blue and littorial enviroment. With the aquisition of F-35B's it would be able to operate its LHD as carriers. It also has a large number of home built frigates (more than spain) to assist in this and secure the region.
In essence it would be able to provide capability a US CSG combined with a USMC support. Land based aircraft and JORN would take over much of the air support role.
Which is what it would take to establish a beachhead against a opposition with a 250,000 strong armed forces on home soil. Even if say Indonesia collapsed as a nation, this would still be a huge undertaking if uncoordinately opposed.
This is more than a I see India ever achiving. And would be of a simular accomplishment to China taking Taiwan. And as I said, more than any of the smaller powers have ever done in the last 100 years.
Many of these equipment like the Collins and the FFGs, still require imported systems. They not even licensed produced, which means you cannot build them entirely in country. At least when China licenses a design, it is manufactured entirely inside the country. For example, the engines used on China's diesel subs. They're the same as those used on the U-boat Type 212 and 214, but these are licensed and made in China. And so when is Australia developing and manufacturing its own indigenous fighters, attackers and bombers?
But why buy an inferior engine? Australia can certainly make its own engines if it had to.
We proberly have enough spare parts to build enough engines for 3 or 4 additional subs if we needed to in our current inventory.
Suitable engines are avalible from multiple countries. Japan, UK, Scandinavia, US etc. The fact that train engines have been adapted means the possibilities are limitless. Australia developed the engine even further converting it from supercharged to turbocharged.
Australia used to make its own Bombers, Fighters etc. But the UK and the US (and others) make so many. Who would buy an Australian fighter anyway? It wouldn't be suited to european style fighting, as it would compromise speed and agility for range and payload. Australia heavily adapts nearly all aquisitions. It usually assembles all of them here too. This means there is enough know how and understanding to improve and maintain for near indefinate periods. Australia assembled its own F-18's. Sure not every part was manufactured here, but there is sufficent manufacturing here in Australia that dozens of firms could knock up components during war time.
Take for example the F-111. Australia is able to operate and maintain this aircraft long after it went out of US service. Wings have been modified, engines, systems, adapt new weapons etc. Unlike other countries.
Given that the UK couldn't even afford to buy off the shelf F-111's and pulled out of the program, and the USA only was barely able to produce them means that Australia got capability, and nearly no other country would be able to develop themselves.
How many other countries have bombers that can carry a pay load nearly 50% of a B-52 and was specially designed to carry american nuclear bombs.
Australia develops and manufactures its own cars, missles, components etc.
China didn't take the german engine design, then add several improvements and impliment it. They just made copies. Most likely inferior to the origional german ones. The german design was proberly a older revision missing improvements.
Australia buys the best it can get, and then sets out improving it, longer range, stealth, adapting it to Australianised munitions. It makes hybrids to get the best outcomes from existing technology reducing risk. The quiet often it licences these improvements to other countries and makes money and partnerships that way.
Hence why the US, UK are very keen to work with Australia. We won't just be happy with the origional spec, we will modify and change. We aren't perfect, and sometimes projects go over budget with all this modification.
Take the older Holden Commodores. The design is origionally Opel. We made it bigger, bigger interior, bigger fuel tank, sturdier. Then we drop in a crate US 6.0L corvette motor instead of some weedy 3L V6. Then we started to clean sheet design the body and drop in ever more powerful US motors. Why waste money reinventing the wheel?
But comparing Australia to china? No way. Collins is far superior to anything China has. In war time Australia would still be able to make subs and of higher quality.
Because Australia doesn't make every item themselves, countries and companies are quiet happy sharing secrets and technologies with Australia because they know Australia won't try to steal the design and flog it cheap, it will just buy from the supplier.
Who wants to share secrets with China? Nobody. Japan? Sensitive issue (see F-22). Who shares secrets with Australia, everybody.
Crap we even train Indonesian officers!!
We proberly have enough spare parts to build enough engines for 3 or 4 additional subs if we needed to in our current inventory.
Suitable engines are avalible from multiple countries. Japan, UK, Scandinavia, US etc. The fact that train engines have been adapted means the possibilities are limitless. Australia developed the engine even further converting it from supercharged to turbocharged.
Australia used to make its own Bombers, Fighters etc. But the UK and the US (and others) make so many. Who would buy an Australian fighter anyway? It wouldn't be suited to european style fighting, as it would compromise speed and agility for range and payload. Australia heavily adapts nearly all aquisitions. It usually assembles all of them here too. This means there is enough know how and understanding to improve and maintain for near indefinate periods. Australia assembled its own F-18's. Sure not every part was manufactured here, but there is sufficent manufacturing here in Australia that dozens of firms could knock up components during war time.
Take for example the F-111. Australia is able to operate and maintain this aircraft long after it went out of US service. Wings have been modified, engines, systems, adapt new weapons etc. Unlike other countries.
Given that the UK couldn't even afford to buy off the shelf F-111's and pulled out of the program, and the USA only was barely able to produce them means that Australia got capability, and nearly no other country would be able to develop themselves.
How many other countries have bombers that can carry a pay load nearly 50% of a B-52 and was specially designed to carry american nuclear bombs.
Australia develops and manufactures its own cars, missles, components etc.
China didn't take the german engine design, then add several improvements and impliment it. They just made copies. Most likely inferior to the origional german ones. The german design was proberly a older revision missing improvements.
Australia buys the best it can get, and then sets out improving it, longer range, stealth, adapting it to Australianised munitions. It makes hybrids to get the best outcomes from existing technology reducing risk. The quiet often it licences these improvements to other countries and makes money and partnerships that way.
Hence why the US, UK are very keen to work with Australia. We won't just be happy with the origional spec, we will modify and change. We aren't perfect, and sometimes projects go over budget with all this modification.
Take the older Holden Commodores. The design is origionally Opel. We made it bigger, bigger interior, bigger fuel tank, sturdier. Then we drop in a crate US 6.0L corvette motor instead of some weedy 3L V6. Then we started to clean sheet design the body and drop in ever more powerful US motors. Why waste money reinventing the wheel?
But comparing Australia to china? No way. Collins is far superior to anything China has. In war time Australia would still be able to make subs and of higher quality.
Because Australia doesn't make every item themselves, countries and companies are quiet happy sharing secrets and technologies with Australia because they know Australia won't try to steal the design and flog it cheap, it will just buy from the supplier.
Who wants to share secrets with China? Nobody. Japan? Sensitive issue (see F-22). Who shares secrets with Australia, everybody.
Crap we even train Indonesian officers!!
The next generation sub is already on the plans - one of the variants includes pump jet propulsion, electro opticals, and a continuation of the current sugnature management technology. we license build engines just as much as china does. in fact some of our ASW, EWarfare tech is sold or shared with allies such as the US. The new subs proposals aren't looking at or based on any other countries designs. The sig management tech is australian - only the US and France have organic equivalents - and ours has already been exported to specific naval partners.
Australia is a latent producer - we've already got a history of that - and we have a positive track record with technology development and sharing. Only the UK has equiv access to US tier 1 tech. Our partners trust us.
Personally I kind of doubt that the Collins are any better of China's own latest nuclear and diesel subs considering the problems the Collins have. China's own subs are not the best, compared to the finest elswhere, maybe like the Gotlands, or the Type 212/214s, but the Collins is far from the finest given its troubled history. It does not even seem to have the asymmetrical propellers or the anecholic tiles and other sound reduction you see in other submarines. Against the Oyashio class of Japan, the Type 214s being procured by Korea, the Scorpenes being procured by India? And the Collins still have to import systems elsewhere, like the Harpoons, the Link-11, the Mk48s and all the sonars.
Being able to maintain F-111s does not mean you can manufacture it. And the many modifications done to it are still with US assistance.
As for the German engines China makes, it was thought by the Germans and supervised by the Germans. Why do you think its called a license? As a matter of fact, China also makes 1500hp diesel engines that power the Leopards and use them for its own tanks. Unless you can come up with numbers or straight data, you cannot claim that license built is being inferior. Your opinion cannot be taken as factual.
They tried exporting Holdens to other parts of South East Asia, and it was a failure.
Being able to maintain F-111s does not mean you can manufacture it. And the many modifications done to it are still with US assistance.
As for the German engines China makes, it was thought by the Germans and supervised by the Germans. Why do you think its called a license? As a matter of fact, China also makes 1500hp diesel engines that power the Leopards and use them for its own tanks. Unless you can come up with numbers or straight data, you cannot claim that license built is being inferior. Your opinion cannot be taken as factual.
They tried exporting Holdens to other parts of South East Asia, and it was a failure.
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