New Frigates for Algerian Navy

[kev 99]

Why would this idea seem "a load of old guff" ?

#1. Go & have a look back at Post#9 in this thread...

#2. The T-23 Hull is a proven design, very similar to other European Navies Hulls (e.g. Germany's 122 & 123's) & even though it's been over 5 years since they've built any, the plans / drawings are probably still available.

I know that in the early 2000's it was "rumored", that they were gonna build some for the Chilean Navy, that was of course, prior to them buying some revamped Type-22's (But that's another story....)

Then again, sometimes rumors are just perpetuated to cover the real truth, other times they become 110% reality.
(After all, look at the F-117 stealth fighter !)

Apart from that, I think they are looking at building up their navy with other things, including an oiler, or an LPD, hence the price.


SA

I meant that the rumour could be a load of old guff, not the idea, personally I think the idea has merit, after all second hand T23s seem to be very popular.

Read earlier on, teach me not to read the whole thread I suppose.

 

[Systems Adict]

...Seeing as this thread's been quiet for the last 3 or so months, has any one heard if there's been any movement, if a down-selection has happened yet, or is it still a 3 horse race ? (British, French & German's)

SA

 

[Spacearrow99]

...Seeing as this thread's been quiet for the last 3 or so months, has any one heard if there's been any movement, if a down-selection has happened yet, or is it still a 3 horse race ? (British, French & German's)

SA

The Algerian President, Adelaziz Bouteflika, was scheduled to visit France somtime in middle of June, but the visit has been postponed. Well there were reports that the Algerian President would order 3 FREMM during his visit. Well, the Algerian frigate contact is France's to lose, but Sarkozy may do something that upsets the Algerians.
And its a six horse race: the American LCS, Spanish F100 deriavtive, German Meko D, British Type 23, French and Italian FREMM.

The Algerians want a full technology transfer. All of thevessels will be constructed locally at the port of Mers El Kebir in northwest Algeria.

 

[StevoJH]

The Algerian President, Adelaziz Bouteflika, was scheduled to visit France somtime in middle of June, but the visit has been postponed. Well there were reports that the Algerian President would order 3 FREMM during his visit. Well, the Algerian frigate contact is France's to lose, but Sarkozy may do something that upsets the Algerians.
And its a six horse race: the American LCS, Spanish F100 deriavtive, German Meko D, British Type 23, French and Italian FREMM.

The Algerians want a full technology transfer. All of thevessels will be constructed locally at the port of Mers El Kebir in northwest Algeria.

T23 would be cheaper then LCS, F100 and FREMM. Not sure how T23 compares to Meko D in cost. T23 is also much likely to result in a full technology exchange since the weapons systems fitted to the ships will be replaced in RN service within the next 8 years or so.

 

[phexo]

Exact !
I think the algerian navy want to personalize the weapons of their futur frigates, like russian or chinese missilles, and get a full transfert of technologies.

For the LCS and the F-100 proposal, sincerly, i doubt about this, beacause some key technoligies are made by the Israeli firms, and the AEGIS system of the F-100 depending by a congress authorisation to export...

The real race are betwen DCNS (France) TKMS (Germany) Fincanterri (Italia) and BVT group (UK).

Please note that actually, the Algerian naval Shipbuilding plant (ECRN at Mers-El-Kebir near Oran city) are leading with Italian assitance a new project : a small corvette like the Italian Cigala Fuosi class in dimensions.
This new small corvette are seem to be a new Djebel Chneoua class.
the old Djebel Chneoua (build with UK assitance):
View attachment 3628
The new project:
View attachment 3629

Do you have any pics or spec of the BVT frigate projects ?

Ps: sorry for my english ^^

 

[StevoJH]

Exact !
I think the algerian navy want to personalize the weapons of their futur frigates, like russian or chinese missilles, and get a full transfert of technologies.

For the LCS and the F-100 proposal, sincerly, i doubt about this, beacause some key technoligies are made by the Israeli firms, and the AEGIS system of the F-100 depending by a congress authorisation to export...

The real race are betwen DCNS (France) TKMS (Germany) Fincanterri (Italia) and BVT group (UK).

Please note that actually, the Algerian naval Shipbuilding plant (ECRN at Mers-El-Kebir near Oran city) are leading with Italian assitance a new project : a small corvette like the Italian Cigala Fuosi class in dimensions.
This new small corvette are seem to be a new Djebel Chneoua class.
the old Djebel Chneoua (build with UK assitance):
View attachment 3628
The new project:
View attachment 3629

Do you have any pics or spec of the BVT frigate projects ?

Ps: sorry for my english ^^

Is that a french 100mm gun on the front? The Aegis system for the Australian Hobart class AWD's had a sticker price of $700 million US. That is more then it would cost to build either an LCS or T23. However out of those two options, the T23 has more firepower and is cheaper.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Is that a french 100mm gun on the front? The Aegis system for the Australian Hobart class AWD's had a sticker price of $700 million US. That is more then it would cost to build either an LCS or T23. However out of those two options, the T23 has more firepower and is cheaper.

The Moroccans are buying three Dutch Sigmas for $1.2 billion dollars, and a $600 million FREMM. Algeria's nominal GDP is almost 2 times greater than Morocco's. Yes, the Algerian Navy and Army are on buying sprees at this time. But I don't think the price of the type of frigates will be the major factor in the Algerian decision making. The full technolgy transfer will be the biggest factor in who gets the deal. So, I think France and German are the two frontrunners. DCNS and TKMS have a full varify of mature designs the Algerians can choose from.

 

[Phill]

help please

Can anyone here please tell me how to make a new post i have some quiestions i want to ask about joining up. thx

 

[phexo]

Is that a french 100mm gun on the front? The Aegis system for the Australian Hobart class AWD's had a sticker price of $700 million US. That is more then it would cost to build either an LCS or T23. However out of those two options, the T23 has more firepower and is cheaper.

No ! It Russian 76mm Ak-176 with another 6x30mm AK-630 and four C-802 Chinese missilles...

The full technolgy transfer will be the biggest factor in who gets the deal. So, I think France and German are the two frontrunners. DCNS and TKMS have a full varify of mature designs the Algerians can choose from.

So i think we can exclude the french DCNS for political reasons...
I expect more from TKMS, BVT and Fincanterri...

 

[StevoJH]

No ! It Russian 76mm Ak-176 with another 6x30mm AK-630 and four C-802 Chinese missilles...


So i think we can exclude the french DCNS for political reasons...
I expect more from TKMS, BVT and Fincanterri...

Fincanterri might have issues as well since they'd probably need frnech government approval for technology transfer, just as DCNS would require Italian government Approval. Possibly also approval from the british government as well.

 

[Spacearrow99]

No ! It Russian 76mm Ak-176 with another 6x30mm AK-630 and four C-802 Chinese missilles...


So i think we can exclude the french DCNS for political reasons...
I expect more from TKMS, BVT and Fincanterri...

Even without the frigate deal, the French, will get billions of dollars worth of contracts when the Algerian President visits Paris. The French are in the drivers seat, they do much more trade with Algeria than Germany, England, or Italy.

 

[phexo]

Even without the frigate deal, the French, will get billions of dollars worth of contracts when the Algerian President visits Paris. The French are in the drivers seat, they do much more trade with Algeria than Germany, England, or Italy.

Huumm i doubt about this: yes, the french industry also wins somes big contract, (Alstom, Razel ect ect) but these contracts concern the "civil" area, not the defense.

Can you tell me any contract in the defense domain, win reccently by the France in Algeria ? the last is the Eurocopter deal, for the Panthers and Caracal helos...contract canceled to take the better AW-101 / SuperLynx couple.

For the canceled Bouteflika visit in France, some sources talk about a big contract with Airbus for "Air Algerie" planes, and Alstom concern the french "TGV".
But what is the meaning of the annulation of this visit ?
I think some "political" problems, like the memory case betwen the two country, some "moderns" political problems like the free circulation betwen Algeria and France, the France support to Morroco in the Sahara... and more !

To the frigate contract, we need a total trust betwen us, for the key technologies transfert, the formation, and the construction of a new shipbuilding industry in the Mediterranean.

I think the real question is :

For the long term, wich country have least risk to see the emergence of a new competitor, and a new naval power in the Mediterranean ?
USA ? Uk ? Spain ? France ? Italy ? Germany ?

EDIT: Sorry i forgot the last contract with the French Shipubuilder OCEA to littles patrol ship's... For this contract, the ECRN in Algieria, can't keep this contract, possible their waiting the final decision to upgrade their installations ?

 

[Spacearrow99]

But what is the meaning of the annulation of this visit ?
I think some "political" problems, like the memory case betwen the two country, some "moderns" political problems like the free circulation betwen Algeria and France, the France support to Morroco in the Sahara... and more !

To the frigate contract, we need a total trust betwen us, for the key technologies transfert, the formation, and the construction of a new shipbuilding industry in the Mediterranean.

I think the real question is :

For the long term, wich country have least risk to see the emergence of a new competitor, and a new naval power in the Mediterranean ?
USA ? Uk ? Spain ? France ? Italy ? Germany ?

EDIT: Sorry i forgot the last contract with the French Shipubuilder OCEA to littles patrol ship's... For this contract, the ECRN in Algieria, can't keep this contract, possible their waiting the final decision to upgrade their installations ?

Well the Sarkozy government's tone on Franco-Algerian past relationship hasn't helped. The Algerian frigate deal will vastly improve the Algerian navys capabilities, but you will still be a minor naval power in the Mediterranean. A new Algerian defense building industry, would've along way to go, before it becomes competitors with the countries you mentioned above.

 

[phexo]

Well the Sarkozy government's tone on Franco-Algerian past relationship hasn't helped. The Algerian frigate deal will vastly improve the Algerian navys capabilities, but you will still be a minor naval power in the Mediterranean. A new Algerian defense building industry, would've along way to go, before it becomes competitors with the countries you mentioned above.

Of course I not say that done in two weeks...
I say "For long term."
In addition, the transfer of advanced technology will not concern only 4 frigates,
after this, the shipyard will not remain "empty-handed" ...
The same can be said with the Germans (meko ) with Turkish Miglem ship.
The 4 frigates contract are just a "passeport" to get some key technologies, not a necessary big update, we have no threats in the Mediterranean.

 

[Systems Adict]

The real race are between DCNS (France) TKMS (Germany) Fincanterri (Italia) and BVT group (UK).

... I've been looking for info on the web, for a while but don't remember ANYTHING about the Italians being interested in this "Project". That's a new one to me, but as listed elsewhere on this thread, it's possible that they can't compete, because of the complexities of transfering military technology.

Do you have any pics or spec of the BVT frigate projects ?

Algeria was / is interested in the Type-23 hull design, so seeing as other than that fact, there's nothing been defined, here's some examples of the hulls that have been built in the UK by BVT & it's predecessors...

Lekiu Class Frigates - Naval Technology

Nakhoda Ragam Class Offshore Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology

Duke Class (Type 23) Frigates - Naval Technology

River Class Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) - Naval Technology

Qahir Class Corvettes - Naval Technology

Barzan (Vita) Class Fast Strike Craft - Naval Technology

Roussen Class (62m Super Vita) Fast Attack Missile Craft - Naval Technology


Make no mistake, this contract is BIG !

Anyone taking it on knows that it's not just about supplying the hulls, it's about the training of the crews for the new equipment, the preparation of facilities to maintain the vessels & the cost related to spares & thru-life support, (which is actually where the money is !).

The teams that are "in the running" at the moment know that it's also about International diplomacy, as such a contract will have to comply with so many treaties both Globally, regionally & Govt to Govt.

IT will NOT be plain sailing !

 

[phexo]

Hello !
Thanks for you reply i can study this differents projects now...

... I've been looking for info on the web, for a while but don't remember ANYTHING about the Italians being interested in this "Project". That's a new one to me, but as listed elsewhere on this thread, it's possible that they can't compete, because of the complexities of transfering military technology.

For the Italian participation i give you one article in french from a french navy magazine :

La France est toujours en course pour vendre des frégates du type FREMM à l'Algérie. « C'est un sujet qui est sur la table », a expliqué aux journalistes algériens l'ambassadeur de France à Alger. Selon la presse algérienne, trois frégates, dont au moins une à vocation anti-sous-marine, seraient en jeu. Pour le quotidien TSA, une éventuelle annonce de conclusion du contrat pourrait intervenir « lors de la visite du président Abdelaziz Bouteflika à Paris dans les prochaines semaines ». Le journal explique le gouvernement algérien souhaite mener ce programme en transfert de technologie, c'est-à-dire en réalisant les bâtiments dans ses propres chantiers. DCNS, concepteur des FREMM, peut d'ailleurs proposer ses services pour mettre à niveau l'outil industriel local.
Le groupe naval français, qui réalisera 11 FREMM pour la Marine nationale, a vendu une frégate de ce type au Maroc. La France espère également placer de 4 à 6 FREMM en Grèce et autant de navires en Arabie Saoudite. D'autres marines pourraient être intéressées par la frégate française de nouvelle génération. On pense par exemple au Brésil ou au Canada.
Face au produit français, on trouve notamment l'Américain Lockheed Martin et son LCS, l'Espagnol Navantia et le F100, l'Allemand TKMS avec la F125 ou encore l'Italien ORIZZONTE (Fincantieri/Finmeccanica) avec sa propre version de la FREMM.

La France toujours en lice pour vendre des FREMM à l'Algérie

After this article, some another articles can be found (algerian or french) but they are just a copy of this...

 

[IPA35]

I was thinking, we should market our Sigma class corvettes/light frigates to Algeria.
It is quite lowcost I believe and rather capable.

Or we could try to sell our 2 remaining Karel Doornman M-frigates, but then we should buy 2 new zeven provinciën class frigates to replace them.
I would like that myself.

 

[jacktar]

Came across this on asharq alawsat.

Algeria and Italy in Major Arms Deal

17/09/2009

By Boualam Ghimrassa

Algiers, Asharq Al-Awsat- Algeria will get in 2011 modern warships equipped with American anti-submarine missiles following a deal with Italy worth 4 billion euros. The deal replaces a similar agreement with France which Algeria decided to cancel because of negotiations between Paris and Rabat to sell FREMM frigates. Algeria concluded another deal with Italy to sell 100 helicopters.

An Algerian source acquainted with military affairs told Asharq Al-Awsat that a high-level delegation from the Defense Ministry is in Italy since last Saturday to inspect the workshop manufacturing the six frigates which Algeria demanded at the end of last year after canceling a similar deal with France. The reason is an agreement which Paris signed with Rabatto to sell it the same frigates. The competition between Algeria and Morocco to acquire the most modern arms and military equipment is not a secret to observers of the region. Despite the Algerian-French disagreement over what was called "Rabat's intrusion in the negotiations", many military agreements projects in the military field are still ongoing and were the result of President Nicolas Sarkozy's visit to Algeria at the end of 2007.

The same source said the Defense Ministry's delegation held during the visit, which ends on Saturday, meetings with senior officials in the Italian Defense Ministry, most notably General Aldo Schiralli, the ministry's secretary general, and Naval Forces Commander Admiral Andrea Camprelgheri. The delegation inspected the workshop where the "FREMM" frigates are built in Pisa, northwest of Italy, and talked to officials from "Fincantieri" group which is building them at its headquarters in Trieste, the Alps Mountains on the border with Slovenia. Within the framework of cooperation with Italy, the Algerian security forces will be provided soon with 100 "109-A", "LUH" and "AW 139" helicopters made by the "Agusta Westland" Company under a bilateral agreement that was revealed during the Algerian delegation's visit to Italy.

According to the source, the value of the "FREMM" frigates deal is 4 billion euros while that of the helicopters deal is not known as it comes under the "modernization of the armed forces" program which started in 2002 and which involves equipping all branches of the Algerian army which received early this year a squadron of the modern Russian-made "Sukhoi 30" aircraft in accordance with a $7 billion deal concluded in 2006. The source referred to "US reservations in principle" about selling the frigates equipped with US equipment.

In a manifestation of the Defense Ministry delegation's visit, an official in the Algerian Navy announced yesterday the start of exercises off the Italian coasts between 18 and 25 September. The exercises will be held within the framework of the 5+5 Euro-Mediterranean group and military cooperation between Algeria and Italy.