New Frigates for Algerian Navy

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Might the Brits be offering the Nakhoda Ragam Class ships originally intended for Brunei?

....Nice Idea, but the Brits don't own the ships, the Sultan of Brunei does...

Yes he's selling them, without having used them, but I think that Algeria won't be buying them, as I'd be pretty sure that like any good major corporation, they'll probably have a clause in their contract with the Bruneians that states they can't be sold to someone else that BAE is proposing to sell goods to.

After all would you like to have spent time, money & effort trying to put together a package of goods for sale to a customer, only to have someone who you've just sold a similar product to, come in & cuts YOU out of the picture....?

Common Business sense methinks....

As for the "updated T-23 Hulls", the customer could pick any systems they want to have installed, I.W.O. missiles & trackers, depending on how & what the ship builder has to offer...


SA
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
....Nice Idea, but the Brits don't own the ships, the Sultan of Brunei does...

Yes he's selling them, without having used them, but I think that Algeria won't be buying them, as I'd be pretty sure that like any good major corporation, they'll probably have a clause in their contract with the Bruneians that states they can't be sold to someone else that BAE is proposing to sell goods to.

After all would you like to have spent time, money & effort trying to put together a package of goods for sale to a customer, only to have someone who you've just sold a similar product to, come in & cuts YOU out of the picture....?

Common Business sense methinks....
Me thinks you're not making sense. If the Sultan doesn't want the ships, it is in his interest to get them sold. If BAE can manage to snag a client for them, then its win-win. After all, Brunei is not bidding on the Algerian ship contract with a ship of its own design or make.
 

ASFC

New Member
No, he is making sense. Those F2000's belonging to Brunei are no longer BAE's problem. I think BAE (or BVT to be precise) would be a tad annoyed if they lost out on a contract to build these ships because someone bought some new ships of them, didn't use them, and then undercut them in a future competition.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
BAe was paid in full, eventually. Having successfully sued to get that full payment, I don't see how BVT can now object to Brunei selling the ships on.

Last I heard, they were in the care of James Fisher, a shipping company at Barrow-in-Furness. Lurssen has been reported to be acting as a sales agent. Presumably, BAe/BVT was no longer trusted by Brunei - conflict of interest, breakdown of relationship, & all that.

Any sale will require UK export licences. I think licences were obtained for Malaysia, which considered buying them, but decided against it.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No, he is making sense. Those F2000's belonging to Brunei are no longer BAE's problem. I think BAE (or BVT to be precise) would be a tad annoyed if they lost out on a contract to build these ships because someone bought some new ships of them, didn't use them, and then undercut them in a future competition.
You follow my train of thought to a tee !

We are talking hundreds of millions of pounds here, not £99.99 for a DVD player !

Companies as big as BAE / Lockheed Martin / Boeing have similar clauses written into contracts as standard practice, it's how big business operates, nothing new there.

Swerve : Yes, the Lekiu's & the Nakhoda's share some similar equipment / missile systems, but I don't think they'd fit in with Malaysia's overall naval procurement plan.

As to your thinking, you have a similar train of thought to my own, wrt the export licenses & them being required for the ships to leave UK waters (hence them still being here), but I think your way off base with Malaysia applying for the license / buying them.

Why would a customer who already has x2 similar ships, & has been in negotiations on another 2 (+2 ??) for the last few years, which are all / will be equipped with a hanger, suddenly buy x3 ships without one ??

Then we go into the realms of my previous post about contracts & under-cutting customers on areas where current contracts are being finalised.

Then again, I could be wrong !


SA
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
No, he is making sense. Those F2000's belonging to Brunei are no longer BAE's problem. I think BAE (or BVT to be precise) would be a tad annoyed if they lost out on a contract to build these ships because someone bought some new ships of them, didn't use them, and then undercut them in a future competition.
Ah, now it makes sense (I had it the other way around, with the ships still hanging with BAE somehow.)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Swerve : Yes, the Lekiu's & the Nakhoda's share some similar equipment / missile systems, but I don't think they'd fit in with Malaysia's overall naval procurement plan.

As to your thinking, you have a similar train of thought to my own, wrt the export licenses & them being required for the ships to leave UK waters (hence them still being here), but I think your way off base with Malaysia applying for the license / buying them.

Why would a customer who already has x2 similar ships, & has been in negotiations on another 2 (+2 ??) for the last few years, which are all / will be equipped with a hanger, suddenly buy x3 ships without one ?? ...

SA
I think you're jumping on this a bit hard. What I've read - in public reports which I can't speak for the accuracy of - is that Malaysia was asked if it wanted to buy the ships, & had a look at them, but decided against buying. That is compatible with both what I said, & what you say. I've not said that Malaysia is buying them, or applied for export licences. Perhaps I was unclear there. Malaysia has been approved for export of the equipment aboard the ships (because it operates most of the same kit), not specific licences for those ships. That doesn't apply to some other potential customers, which couldn't be guaranteed to get approval.

Would BVT have bothered writing in the sort of contract restriction discussed here?

The ships are unsaleable except at a discount, so any sale would necessarily undercut a comparable new BVT bid, so it'd be rather too close to a "no resale" clause. But more important, it's unlikely anybody would want to buy them without being able to get BVT support, so BVT has an effective veto on their sale without such a clause, & in any case, anyone interested in already rather dated-looking discount ships would probably not be in the market for comparable current vessels.

BVT would probably profit from getting them into the hands of someone - anyone - who'd buy support, rather than letting them rust.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think you're jumping on this a bit hard.
Apologies if I appear that way, I'd mis-read the comment below...

"Any sale will require UK export licenses. I think licenses were obtained for Malaysia, which considered buying them, but decided against it."

I'd read it that the Malaysian's "had obtained the licenses", which they had previously had to do for their own vessels. Since then there have been several other changes in the laws in Europe & across the world regarding the exports of weapons.


Would BVT have bothered writing in the sort of contract restriction discussed here?

The ships are unsaleable except at a discount, so any sale would necessarily undercut a comparable new BVT bid, so it'd be rather too close to a "no resale" clause. But more important, it's unlikely anybody would want to buy them without being able to get BVT support, so BVT has an effective veto on their sale without such a clause, & in any case, anyone interested in already rather dated-looking discount ships would probably not be in the market for comparable current vessels.

BVT would probably profit from getting them into the hands of someone - anyone - who'd buy support, rather than letting them rust.

As I've said before, large companies write large, complicated contracts, so that if something does go outside the "rules" of the contract, they've got their backsides covered.

After all, have you looked a standard insurance policy for your own home? The amount of legalese & gobbldy-gook that's in them make it almost impossible for the lay-man to understand or actually claim on it, without specific clauses being met. Contracts for multi-million pound defence projects are just as bad, if not worse.


Yes, I suppose BVT might have the ability to reject the sale contract without such a clause, but again, knowing how some of these big companies work, it's a given that it's been written in.

Additionally, contracts like those for a warship take time to negotiate & thrash out (usually years), so by the time an end-user has decided to down-select a particular supplier, they've been through that much, such as the govt assigning the cash from the budget, etc, it's doubtful that they would reject a contract, just to go after 3 ships that are being sold by a 3rd party.(especially as once you signed Letters Of Intent (LOI's), you pretty much have to pay the price for the ships to get out of the contract).

As the Nakhoda's stand, yes they are now nearly 5 years old, but other than a quick maintenance check, possibly a hull wash & paint, they're good to go(as long as you're prepared to accept the BVT baggage / support contracts that would have to go along with it !). Technologically I wouldn't call them "dated",they are light years ahead of most comparable sized ships that were built pre 1995 & would be capable enough to hold their own. They've done little other than their proving trials with the shipbuilder, so are no worse than say a demonstrator car from your local car dealership !

I'd even go as far to say that if the RN had the cash, they'd snap them up !

SA
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Agreed, they're relatively modern, but I think that if you were ordering a new ship now (i.e. for delivery in a few years), you probably wouldn't order the Nakhoda Ragams. They're competing with secondhand ships, which means for countries which can't afford new. That marks down the price, even though they're much better than other secondhand ships.

Actually, I suspect the RN would think twice about accepting them. They'd be useful in the Persian Gulf, or some other station where a ship designed for warm weather, with no hangar, could operate happily, but that's a bit limiting for the RN, & IIRC they have a big crew in relation to their size, which is a problem in these days of manpower shortages.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
During chancellor Angela Merkel’s visit to Algeria in July it was widely rumored that Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) had won the contract for frigates by under-cutting DCNS’ bid.
It should be notable that effective July 8th, the product support department of TKMS Hamburg put out employment ads searching for:
- "Shipyard Consultant Algeria" (can't be found any longer)
- "Project Manager Infrastructure Algeria" (still open)
- "Project Planer Algeria" (still open)

See also:
http://www.jobstairs.de/joboffers/ThyssenKrupp_AG8557_3.html
http://www.jobstairs.de/joboffers/ThyssenKrupp_AG8559_3.html
 

jacktar

New Member
I heard a rumor that BVT got the contract. New build ships (I assume Type 23's) complete spares and training package etc. Anybody able to say if this is true or heard anything to the contrary?

Cheers,

JT
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry M8,

A contract of even 2 ships would be BIG news for BVT & would be all over the wires. The fact that there's nothing being posted on the net, or in any other media format usually means that although things maybe progressing, the ink isn't on the contract yet....

SA

:(
 

jacktar

New Member
Yep,

Probably a case of someone being overly optimistic. BVT could probably use the good news at the moment.

JT
 

phexo

New Member
Hello !
Some news :
French see British, Germans muzzle in on Algerian deal

Tuesday, 27 January 2009

Britain and Germany are reportedly muscling in on what France considered a sure sale of up to four “FREMM” multi-mission frigates to Algeria.
The French ADIT business intelligence and risk assessment agency notes in its latest newsletter that the Francophone Algerian La Tribune newspaper last week reported that BVT Surface Fleet, supported by the British government, is negotiating a Memorandum of Understanding with the Algerian government “to conduct a contract evaluated between €4-5 billion.”

Media reports circulated after French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s December 2007 visit there suggested Algeria was to purchase up to four of the frigates. Armada International, the Swiss multilingual defence publication last October described it as a done deal, saying the “Algerian National Navy has followed Morocco as an export customer for the FREMM… The Algerian vessels will be constructed locally at the Mers-el-Kebir port in northwest Algeria”.

This, however, does not appear to be the case. Armada spoke of the Moroccan purchase in the plural and said Morocco “expected to receive its first vessel in 2012”. But a media release by DCNS, the builder, only mentions a single ship, as does the “FREMM” entry in the wikipedia. (The wikipedia entry does not mention Algeria at all and the FREMM is not referenced in the Algerian National Navy wikipedia site.)


ADIT further reports that British Prime minister has “exchanged several letters” with Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika, “while BVT Surface Fleet confirms having opened negotiations with Algiers, without specifying what kind of ship was under discussion. “But it could concern the Type 22 frigate…”

“Moreover, the Germans also threaten the FREMM deal offering Meko frigates with South African missiles to Algeria”.

It appears the Royal Navy is gradually phasing out the Type 22 “Broadsword” class. Several have already been sold to Brazil, Chile and Romania. If accurate, the Type 22’s on offer to Algeria will likely be refurbished vessels.

The South African Navy currently has in commission for Meko A200SAN frigates armed, inter alia, with the Denel Umkhonto surface-to-air missile. The Umkhonto has been exported to Finland.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1020&Itemid=363
 

ASFC

New Member
It will be the Type 23, not Type 22. There are no T22s for sale and when the RN finally retires the four it has they will be too flogged and knackered to be of any use to anybody.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
4-5 billion Euros is an awful lot for secondhand T22 or T23. That would pay for grade A new-build ships.

The RN only has 4 T22 & 13 T23 left, which isn't enough for the taskings they have, & only 3 months ago the MoD published a timetable for their withdrawal according to which the first (a T22) would reitre in 2019. Admirals might even risk their pensions by complaining publicly if anyone tried to get rid of 'em early.

No, all this talk of ex-RN frigates seems very odd. The retired & retiring T42 destroyers are the only ships available without the RN throwing a tantrum, & they also seem unlikely. They're old & heavily used, with a missile system which would need complete replacement. They'd require a strip-out & total refit, & even then, new ships would probably be better.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
4-5 billion Euros is an awful lot for secondhand T22 or T23. That would pay for grade A new-build ships.

The RN only has 4 T22 & 13 T23 left, which isn't enough for the taskings they have, & only 3 months ago the MoD published a timetable for their withdrawal according to which the first (a T22) would reitre in 2019. Admirals might even risk their pensions by complaining publicly if anyone tried to get rid of 'em early.

No, all this talk of ex-RN frigates seems very odd. The retired & retiring T42 destroyers are the only ships available without the RN throwing a tantrum, & they also seem unlikely. They're old & heavily used, with a missile system which would need complete replacement. They'd require a strip-out & total refit, & even then, new ships would probably be better.
Could be a new build(something like the VT frigates) possibly lots of ifs and buts in the article
 

kev 99

Member
I'm sure I read a rumour on one forum (might be Warships1) that a party has expressed an interest in new build T23s, could well be a load of old guff though.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm sure I read a rumor on one forum (might be Warships1) that a party has expressed an interest in new build T23s, could well be a load of old guff though.
Why would this idea seem "a load of old guff" ?

#1. Go & have a look back at Post#9 in this thread...

#2. The T-23 Hull is a proven design, very similar to other European Navies Hulls (e.g. Germany's 122 & 123's) & even though it's been over 5 years since they've built any, the plans / drawings are probably still available.

I know that in the early 2000's it was "rumored", that they were gonna build some for the Chilean Navy, that was of course, prior to them buying some revamped Type-22's (But that's another story....)

Then again, sometimes rumors are just perpetuated to cover the real truth, other times they become 110% reality.
(After all, look at the F-117 stealth fighter !)

Apart from that, I think they are looking at building up their navy with other things, including an oiler, or an LPD, hence the price.


SA
 

jacktar

New Member
Does anyone know if these are additional ships or replacements for something like the old Russian Koni class frigates?
 
Top