Nagorniy Karabakh

Hone C · Oct 17, 2020

ngatimozart said:
No, they have to be lawful combatants of a sovereign state. Any one can wear a uniform. That doesn't make them a lawful combatant. If you use your argument that legitimises most terrorist groups.

Lawful combatants include irregular forces, as long as they are under responsible command, carry their arms openly and otherwise distinguish themselves from the civilian population.

They are entitled to Prisioner of War status, even if "that Party [to the conflict] is represented by a government or authority not recognised by an adverse Party"

Additional Protocol to the Geneva Convention (Protocol I) 1977. Part III, Section II, Article 43.

Beholder · Oct 17, 2020

ngatimozart said:
No, they have to be lawful combatants of a sovereign state. Any one can wear a uniform. That doesn't make them a lawful combatant. If you use your argument that legitimises most terrorist groups.

Trust me, you'll never confuse normal lawful combatant with terrorists. Moreover in practice lawful combatant can commit war crimes, and use them to terrorize population on newly conquered territory(which in effect terrorism). Lawful and good is not the same.
Another thing, even for unlawful combatant, as long as he is prisoner and not threat, he has basic human right, including that of trial.
You also need to understand why there is need to distinction lawful/unlawful at all, basically it is to encourage what we consider lawful warfare, which in turn type of warfare that least endanger non combatants.
While it seems connected to question of terrorism, in fact not so much. You can have unlawful combatant in otherwise lawful armed force and sometimes even vice versa(requires very specific turn of events).

John Fedup · Oct 17, 2020

“Responsible command”, I am guessing there would serious disagreement as to what this is amongst warring parties. I often wonder if wars with rules might be incentive to actually take a chance on waging a war of aggression.

Beholder · Oct 17, 2020

Nope, actually starting war has nothing to do with Geneva convention and everything to do with article 51 of UN charter. Precisely because no one want to mix this issues.

P.S. Come to think of it, this issue is actually good vs bad issue. Self defence good, aggression bad.

Hone C · Oct 17, 2020

John Fedup said:
“Responsible command”, I am guessing there would serious disagreement as to what this is amongst warring parties. I often wonder if wars with rules might be incentive to actually take a chance on waging a war of aggression.

In this context it simply means a command structure that is accountable for the actions of subordinates.

Feanor · Oct 17, 2020

Beholder said:
Trust me, you'll never confuse normal lawful combatant with terrorists.

It gets tricky. For example in eastern Ukraine the Ukrainian government refers to all the enemy fighters as "terrorists" or sometimes "Russian terrorist-occupation forces". Which, aside from being a mouthful, is a hilarious conflation of whether they are lawful combatants or not. And they definitely wear uniforms, have a recognized rank structure, and wage war in ways similar to a relatively backward but entirely conventional military. What happens if Azerbaijan follows suit and declares all NKR fighters as terrorists? Are they still entitled to POW status then?

Beholder · Oct 17, 2020

Feanor said:
It gets tricky. For example in eastern Ukraine the Ukrainian government refers to all the enemy fighters as "terrorists" or sometimes "Russian terrorist-occupation forces". Which, aside from being a mouthful, is a hilarious conflation of whether they are lawful combatants or not. And they definitely wear uniforms, have a recognized rank structure, and wage war in ways similar to a relatively backward but entirely conventional military. What happens if Azerbaijan follows suit and declares all NKR fighters as terrorists? Are they still entitled to POW status then?

It doesn't get tricky at all. They are lawful combatants and entitled to POW status. Not to mention fair trial in any case.
You see if you want to declare someone unlawful combatant in the first place you need to do trial. Basically it's something that needs to be proved in court, not social media.

P.S. Mercenaries also unlawful, so for example foreign state not officially engaged in hostilities sending forces under disguise is a tricky question.
On the other hand terrorist(member of terrorist organisation) participating in war as lawful combatant still lawful combatant and entitled to POW status, you can still do separate trial for terrorism(same way for war crimes).
Bottom line no law ever allow executions of prisoners without trial.

Feanor · Oct 17, 2020

Beholder said:
It doesn't get tricky at all. They are lawful combatants and entitled to POW status. Not to mention fair trial in any case.
You see if you want to declare someone unlawful combatant in the first place you need to do trial. Basically it's something that needs to be proved in court, not social media.

P.S. Mercenaries also unlawful, so for example foreign state not officially engaged in hostilities sending forces under disguise is a tricky question.
On the other hand terrorist(member of terrorist organisation) participating in war as lawful combatant still lawful combatant and entitled to POW status, you can still do separate trial for terrorism(same way for war crimes).
Bottom line no law ever allow executions of prisoners without trial.

Armenia would be a foreign state and whether they're officially involved in the hostilities is questionable since Azerbaijan didn't declare war on them, and the fighting is taking place mostly (with rare exceptions) inside internationally recognized Azeri territory. Keep in mind, not even Armenia recognizes Artsakh/NKR as an independent state.

EDIT: On the subject of mercenaries, would the Syrian fighters being sent to Azerbaijan, and paid to fight, qualify?

Beholder · Oct 17, 2020

Feanor said:
Armenia would be a foreign state and whether they're officially involved in the hostilities is questionable since Azerbaijan didn't declare war on them, and the fighting is taking place mostly (with rare exceptions) inside internationally recognized Azeri territory. Keep in mind, not even Armenia recognizes Artsakh/NKR as an independent state.

Recognition not that matter, but no official Armenian involvement in war is.
Let's say you have armenian national in NKR army and he is taken as prisoner. It is precisely tricky question.

Feanor said:
EDIT: On the subject of mercenaries, would the Syrian fighters being sent to Azerbaijan, and paid to fight, qualify?

Yes i think.

Art 47. Mercenaries
1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is especially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

All the criteria (a – f) must be met, according to the Geneva Convention, for a combatant to be described as a mercenary.

Mercenary - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

@Beholder Sources please. This is a requirement of the rules and protects both you and the forum from accusations of plagiarism. Rule #14 applies.

NNgatimozart.

Beholder · Oct 18, 2020

The Fight For Nagorno-Karabakh: Documenting Losses on The Sides Of Armenia and Azerbaijan

The Fight For Nagorno-Karabakh: Documenting Losses On The Sides Of Armenia And Azerbaijan

www.oryxspioenkop.com

More or less documented losses in conflict from neutral source.

ngatimozart · Oct 19, 2020

Beholder said:
The Fight For Nagorno-Karabakh: Documenting Losses on The Sides Of Armenia and Azerbaijan

The Fight For Nagorno-Karabakh: Documenting Losses On The Sides Of Armenia And Azerbaijan

www.oryxspioenkop.com

More or less documented losses in conflict from neutral source.

How valid and reliable is this source? Not much appears to be published about it's origins, owners etc., that's all. Maybe @Feanor or @OPSSG might know of it.

Hone C · Oct 19, 2020

ngatimozart said:
How valid and reliable is this source? Not much appears to be published about it's origins, owners etc., that's all. Maybe @Feanor or @OPSSG might know of it.

Never heard of the source myself, but the figures seemed reliable enough for RUSI to link to it in a recent article.

The Key to Armenia’s Tank Losses: The Sensors, Not the Shooters

Amid a lively debate about the viability of the UK’s heavy armour, the loss of over 42 Armenian T-72s to Azerbaijani forces in Nagorno-Karabakh requires further analysis., Despite the heavy Armenian armoured losses, the key lessons from the videos Azerbaijan has published online are not about...

rusi.org

Some interesting discussion going on into the use of loitering munitions and the proliferation of sensors, and potential implications for Western forces. Specifically, deficencies in tactical UAVs, EW and GBAD platforms, and how combined arms, ISTAR, EMCOM, etc. is conducted going forward.

Beholder · Oct 19, 2020

Hone C said:
Never heard of the source myself, but the figures seemed reliable enough for RUSI to link to it in a recent article.

The Key to Armenia’s Tank Losses: The Sensors, Not the Shooters

Amid a lively debate about the viability of the UK’s heavy armour, the loss of over 42 Armenian T-72s to Azerbaijani forces in Nagorno-Karabakh requires further analysis., Despite the heavy Armenian armoured losses, the key lessons from the videos Azerbaijan has published online are not about...

rusi.org

Some interesting discussion going on into the use of loitering munitions and the proliferation of sensors, and potential implications for Western forces. Specifically, deficencies in tactical UAVs, EW and GBAD platforms, and how combined arms, ISTAR, EMCOM, etc. is conducted going forward.

Well, i read it.
Where is western aviation? Any IRR missile will down any MALE UAV, lighter UAV either can't hold kinetic payload, or are loitering munition themselves.

The lessons are far reaching. Heavy formations must likely disperse to avoid being engaged by area-of-effect munitions at reach.
This makes protecting them from UAVs and air attack more challenging, requiring the integration of short-ranged air defences (SHORAD) across tactical units, along with EW – specifically electronic attack – capabilities.

This is not necessarily true(for the sake of argument i actually think it's totally not true for Israel or US, or NATO, bcs only adversary that holds full range of capabilities is China and US do know how to counter it).

For example Drone Dome of Rafael(UK have it too) can protect against loitering munitions, while some other systems against area-of-effect munitions. If MALE UAV or Heli don't come, then we can stay together and there is no need to disperse, if we use some IADS in area or SHORAD to counter area-of-effect munitions.

NATO itself have full range of UAVs including loitering munitions, so maybe you can use it to better effect, for example to destroy area-of-effect threats etc.
What i want to say is sometimes offence is the best defence. Armenia had no choice, it's different for western military.
When we talk about peer power that have full range of UAVs it's only China i think, and the best bet is probably fight for and get aerial superiority before thinking about heavy formation in attack. IMO

@Beholder JUST BECAUSE YOU READ IT DOESN'T MAKE IT GOSPEL. WE ARE A PROFESSIONALLY RUN DEFENCE FORUM AND WE HAVE DEFENCE PROFESSIONALS ON HERE WHO ARE EXPERTS IN THEIR VARIOUS FIELDS. DIAL BACK THE ATTITUDE OR THE MODERATORS WILL BE DISCUSSING YOUR FUTURE ON HERE.

Does my english so bad?

I read the article "The Key to Armenia’s Tank Losses: The Sensors, Not the Shooters" @Hone C posted and answered to it.

YOU HAVE ALSO BEEN ASKED TO SUPPLY CREDENTIALS TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF BACKGROUND IN THE RADIO TECHNOLOGY FIELD. YOU HAVE NOT YET AND HAVE UNTIL 12PM UTC (GMT) WEDNESDAY 21ST OCTOBER 2020 TO PROVIDE SUCH EVIDENCE TO ONE OF THE MODERATORS. BE ADVISED THAT WE DO HAVE THE CAPABILITIES OF CHECKING THE VALIDITY OF SUCH EVIDENCE THAT IS PROVIDED. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN THE MODERATORS DISCUSSING THE FUTURE OF YOUR CONTINUED PRESENCE ON THIS FORUM.

NGATIMOZART

Feanor · Oct 19, 2020

ngatimozart said:
How valid and reliable is this source? Not much appears to be published about it's origins, owners etc., that's all. Maybe @Feanor or @OPSSG might know of it.

Oryx blog is usually a decent osint source. He certainly takes a point of view and his coverage in the past has been one sided at times, but I would consider his numbers in this case relatively reliable. As reliable as they can be, really, given the uncertainty and the active attempts at misinformation by both sides.

ngatimozart · Oct 19, 2020

Feanor said:
Oryx blog is usually a decent osint source. He certainly takes a point of view and his coverage in the past has been one sided at times, but I would consider his numbers in this case relatively reliable. As reliable as they can be, really, given the uncertainty and the active attempts at misinformation by both sides.

Thanks @Feanor I will add the blog to my list of sources to follow.

@Beholder this is how we all learn and regarding your comment about you reading the RUSI link that Hone C provided it would've have been much simpler if you had clearly stated so. It just saves a lot of confusion.

Feanor · Oct 20, 2020

Update.

Despite the declaration of a second ceasefire, Azerbaijan has continued the offensive in the south. After what appears to be a failed Armenian counter-attack, Azeri forces have penetrated deep into the NKR and are approaching the Armenian border. They've even reached the Khudaferin dam, and captured the town of Fizuli, taking some trophies. It seems like the Armenian front line in the south has collapsed. They're losing ground fast, and if this offensive continues, the successful defense in the center and the north won't save them, as the path to Stepanakert will be open.

If you check the first link you can see a map that reflects the terrain and it becomes obvious why this has worked, the area is lower hills rather then higher mountains, making it easier to advance, and harder to defend.

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