My idea's to upgrade the Dutch military.

[petrac]

Well, it seems the debate still arges on, but sadly no crisis due to it. It will probably be a compromise and this will mean JSF will stay on course... Too bad, SAAB unfortunately has no change for the politics..

But OK, next topic:
My personal favourite would be the P50 Maritime Enforcer (based on the Fokker50), but it is sadly no longer in production ;-) I do not think we need such a long-range platform as our patrol needs are defensive only and confined to our national waters. An ATR42 / Dash8 type platform would be good enough in my opinion.

A UAV-type platform would not be needed in such a scenario, or only a light UAV (Hermes450 class) to augment the manned platforms. The saved money (Poseidons are expensive...) can be used for more transports ;-)

Cheers

 

[IPA35]

That would be a downgrade of capability.
But if you wan tto do it cheap you can buy the maritime version of the Embraer P-99, you can also buy the version with Erieye so you have 1 type of platform.

I myself think that the P-8A is the worthy replacement for the P-3 although it is expensive, but we can buy only 4-6 and use some UAV;s for the rest.
The MQ-4 is probably the only platform suited for this (range! and other countries doing it).

We should use them to fight piracy too.
And I doubt the Dash8's ASW capabilities.
BTW the antillian coastguard allready operates them. (unarmed I think).

 

[petrac]

What downgrade of capability? We have no MPA capability today... And even if you compare with the P3C Orions, the only downgrade would be in range. Given the fact that international co-operation is less of a factor in your plans than today I did not see a reason to add long-range to the aircraft. Mind you, the Poseidon is a really long-range aircraft.

And after all, for national MPA patrols the P50 would be ok for range and cans till be armed with everything it needs, from torpedoes to missiles. I think the Poseidon is overkill. I would also phase out the Antilles Dash8s and replace them by genuine Nave MPA, as these aircraft are now operated by some Canadian company.

Piracy operations do not differ much from traditional MPA flights as Orions do not have an anti-piracy weapon (using Harpoon on a pirate skiff is kind of overkill..), so do other MPA. The P99 might be another good option too, though.

As for UAV, given the range option, most platforms would suffice in my view. The only factor would be interoperability with the MPA.

Cheers

 

[IPA35]

You are right, but you haven't convinced me.

The new OPV's:
I don't like it's currently planned armament, it should have the capability to be outfitted with AS and AA missles, maybe depth charges (danish container concept is perfect).
Build 4.

 

[petrac]

Well, what are the reasons you are not convinced ;-)
In my view, esspecially with the focus on defence outside international organizations, we do not need such a large platform. We can rely on smaller platforms also forward-deployed to the Antilles.

I agree with regards to the OPVs. I think you need a round-out design, fitted with VLS system capable of firing Harpoon / ESSM / rocket-assisted torpedo and fitted with an RWS gun system (already has i believe). DO we have enough by 4 of them? We could need 2 of them in the Antilles, which leaves only 2 in the Netherlands, would 6 be better?

regards

 

[IPA35]

Well it would be a downgrade but you are right, how many do me need and how many of the other versions would we need?
(maritime, erieye and remote sensing)
http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com.br/english/content/isr_systems/p99_state_of_art.asp

Yes, I agree on the armament as the planned armament is only guns in 5 different sizes, ok for patrols ofcourse but useless in a real combat situation.
6 yes but I would also like to see 8 LCF's.
Might be to expensive then but the OPV's only need 50 crewmembers.

Maybe a more modern alternative for the L118 (if we don't have them anymore) is the south-african G7 it is heavier but it has long range and it is also 105mm.

Did you say CB90?

And I has thinking to train an antillian defence force.
I know there is already such a thing but I cannot find much info about them.
Like 500-1000 men strong armed with light arms, spikes and a handfull of fenneks.
A bit like the luxembourgish army.

 

[petrac]

If you went one platform for all missions, I would select three Erieye versions, 2 remote sensing machines en 6 P-99s MPAs.

I have no real feeling about the best gun, whether it should be 105mm or 155mm. I read 155mm packs quite more punch than 105mm, but it all comes down to weight. Whichever one if best in that is OK by me, maybe even de G5. I have nno idea what you mean by VB90, we only talked about the CV90 IFV.

I assume there is something like an ADF, but it could be rained and expanded more if the need arises. Would there be enough influx of troops though? In the end the Dutch Kingdom is responsible for their defence, that is why we need stationed OPVs and forward-deployed troops, aircraft and MPAs

Cheers

 

[IPA35]

Combat Boat 90...

I would say
3-4 Erieye versions. (1 squadron)
6-8 P-99's (2 squadrons?)
0 Remote sensing (I would buy like 4 MQ-4 for this role).

 

[Firn]

I have no real feeling about the best gun, whether it should be 105mm or 155mm. I read 155mm packs quite more punch than 105mm, but it all comes down to weight. Whichever one if best in that is OK by me, maybe even de G5. I have nno idea what you mean by VB90, we only talked about the CV90 IFV.

A mix allows to tailor the force needed to achive the desired effect. Given the limited ressources of the Netherlands only one calibre might be supported in the future. Under such circumstances the 155mm should perhaps be chosen as it is generally the better performer across the whole spectrum of warfighting.

However it all depends on what the leadership wants to achieve.

 

[IPA35]

We have the 155mm PHZ2000 for that, we need a (light) towed gun for the marine corps.

He suggested the L118 (we had/have those according to wiki but they are not in service and I don't know if we still own them).
I proposed the G7 as an alternative although it might be too heavy.
(What vehicle to tow it? Fennek or Boxer?)

 

[IPA35]

@Petrac:

What to buy?
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/gripen/gripen_stores.jpg

 

[petrac]

How about all ;-)

At least I would choose the Vinten pod and the Litening III targeting pod. We already have AMRAAM and Sidewinder, which are good enough, just like the Paveways and Mavericks. I would recommend JSOW/JDAM, altough the South African airforce also has some interesting weapons, like MUPSO/Raptor standoff weapon. The Taurus is also a good option.

If we develop along with SAAB, we can add ou own weapons mix.
Cheers

 

[IPA35]

I don't know alot about pods sadly...

I would (except for the current weapons) buy extra Iris-T's, Taurus, JSOW (or Rapor) or that Spice, droptanks, RBS15 and a small number of the Brimstone missle.

Maybe the Darter series if you want to buy South-African stuff.
(Raptor, G7, ect...)
The could replace the Sidewinders together with the Iris-t.

 

[petrac]

I have to disagree.
I would keep the armament as standard as possible, why replacing perfectly good Sidewinders and AMRAAMs with new weapons? What does brimstone have above Maverick? What would RBS15 have above Harpoon (already in service?)

We already have guided weapons and a full A2A outfit, so I would concentrate on standoff weapons, like JSOW and JDAM.

 

[IPA35]

Brimstone is specialised anti tank, and smaller so maybe it can carry more brimstones that mavericks? (just 50)

EDIT: the brimstone is carried per 3, here's an EF as example:

So you can probably carry more of those than Maverick's.

We have harpoons on our frigates but I believe the Gripen cannot carry the harpoon, only the RBS 15.
Maybe the Embraer can carry them?

JSOW (or Raptor or Spice) and Taurus, yes.
We already bought Iris-T's (500) maybe we could buy more?

We should buy the Meteor as it is 'the future'.
They are however very expensive compared to the AMRAAM so maybe they should not be used against poorly equiped enemies.
Maybe 100-200 missles.

The gripen can also carry rocket pods.

 

[swerve]

Brimstone is specialised anti tank, and smaller so maybe it can carry more brimstones that mavericks? ....

Much smaller - 50 kg vs 200-300 kg (depending on the version). Brimstone is no longer a pure anti-tank missile. It is now available with a dual-mode seeker, enabling it to engage other targets, & further development is expected to give it alternative warheads, optimised for other target types. Far less collateral damage than a Maverick.

 

[Firn]

He suggested the L118 (we had/have those according to wiki but they are not in service and I don't know if we still own them).
I proposed the G7 as an alternative although it might be too heavy.

As I said, it depends on what one wants.

Weight:

G7 3,8t
M777A2 3,2t
L118 1,8-2,1 (depends on the version)

The M77A2 beats all by far in practically every aspect and has the calibre in which by far most research has gone in and will go in the foreseeable future. It has all the nice smart rounds from Excalibur to SMart (Anti-tank skeets). Given the key role of Artillery especially for light forces I would always chose it unless with a very very tight budget.

As an mover I would chose the Bronco ATTC.

The Bronco All Terrain Tracked Carrier (ATTC) is a twin chassis multi-purpose articulated tracked carrier jointly developed by ST Kinetics and the Defence Science & Technology Agency (DSTA) for the Singapore Army. ST Kinetics also manufactures firefighting, disaster recovery and other civilian variants under its U.S. subsidiary Hackney and its China subsidiary GJK. Designed to traverse difficult terrain, the Bronco has a ground pressure of 60 Kpa and is fitted with heavy duty seamless rubber tracks and a running gear system for soft ground conditions and directional stability. Swimming operations require minimum preparation and it can achieve a swimming speed of 5 km/h. The Bronco's four-sprocket drive, fully articulated steering with optional differential lock provides for small turning radius maneuvers and improved performance.

The Bronco has a load carrying capacity of up to 5 tonnes and is capable of a top speed of 60 km/h on the road and at least 25 km/h on cross-country terrain.

To provide indirect fire close to the frontlines in a mobile package I would take a look at that.

Mortar Tracked Carrier

A variant of the Bronco All-Terrain Tracked Carrier, the Mortar Tracked Carrier (MTC) is jointly developed by the SAF, DSTA and Singapore Technologies Kinetics. Operating on a 4 men crew, the MTC's primary weapon is the ST Kinetics 120mm Super Rapid Advanced Mortar System (SRAMS), the world’s first recoiled mortar to incorporate a blast diffuser[3], greatly reducing the blast overpressure effect generated by mortars, thus allowing longer periods of firing without injuring the crew. The MTC has a built-in Automatic Fire Control System (AFCS) comprising a Fire Control Unit and an Inertia Navigation System, allowing it to conduct immediate deployment without conventional surveying methods. A hydro-pneumatic Recoil System reduces the overall recoil force, thus allowing minimal reinforcement of the original hull structure, and post-firing stabilising time. This increases the rate of firing with improved accuracy.

The AFCS is also equipped with a Mortar Platoon Management System (MPMS), which enables it to be networked via the Battlefield Management System (BMS).

As a matter of fact the Hagglund BV206S is a blast in difficult terrain and steep hills. The Bronco seems to be a larger and better armored and capable version of it.

If you really want a light force capable to operate even in most difficult of navigable terrain and be relative well protected against mines and IEDs the Bronco seems to be the best choice. It's variants should form the baseline of such a force.

This light force might have organic or attached "medium" units which consist mostly of IFV based on the likes of the CV90 or IFV Puma - basically a company of armored infantry or elements of it. The same AFV might serve as a platform for a direct fire support vehicle with a 105mm or better a 120mm AT gun which could form organic or attached units. In the Italian Alpini brigade Taurinense the Centauro is the main AT/DF AFV.

However given that the Dutch have Leos aplenty, and attached true tank company (or elements) would also make sense. Such an unit might of course be further split up in COIN operations but of course the support gets than more and more difficult.

Of course this are just the major fighting components.

 

[IPA35]

Hmmm, I can't change the OP anymore...

So then we should buy the Brimstone missle, IMO.
How many would a Gripen be able to carry? And how many Mavericks?

We have both the Viking and the Bandvagn, maybe we should but buy things from Singapore for Political reasons.
(IMO Singapore is a dictatorial policestate).
We should however buy LAV25 (or something comparable) for the marine corps.
It will have a 120mm AFAIK but I do not know if that project is still on.

We should buy LAV25 IFV, AT with TOW-II and a light gun.
We could buy the 120mm version but maybe we could give them HIMARS as I would buy those for the normal army anyway.

But do no forget it is only a (small and) light unit.


-----

Anyone know's what happened to the Dutch L118's?

 

[Firn]

I gave now the Korps a closer look

After giving my educated guess about an the utility of the Be206S and the Bronco it seems that the Korps Mariniers already had the sense to get the former and the Viking

However the Bronco seems to be the better BvS 10 and should be the better solution on the long term. Still a replacement would be foolish considering that the money could be far better spent, at least IMHO.

The first question is what the Korps Mariniers should be. It seems that the consensus here seems it should be a "light" force capable to operate in all difficult terrains which mother earth has to offer and which is relative easy to deploy, especially by the sea. As an "infantry brigade" with appropriate vehicles it is suited for stabilization operations and complex terrain. You guys seem to want to give this fast intervention force more warfighting capabilities.


The whole brigade should be networked and integrated as far as possible to be able to manage operations across the whole spectrum better. To operate effectively in stabilization missions a wide task the ability to get things going with civil support is needed. Togheter with the other arms of the Royal armed Forces and the goverment the capability to integrate the necessary civilian/foreign units and assets should become a priority.


To be able to operate more indepentently I would make the following large changes in their TOE.



New battalions/components on the brigade/Korps level:


(i) Add a true Field artillery battalion with two to three batteries (6-18) pieces of light towed 155mm howitzer. The M777A2 is expensive but would be the perfect choice. With a wide amount of available ammunition it is a great fire support asset. The mover should be an BvS 10 or a feasible truck best if based on the Bushmaster.

Batteries/Elements might likely get detached to other brigades, especially the airmobile brigade could need such a support. Perhaps a second FA battalion should be established there. All in all 18-24 artillery pieces should be purchased.

A HIMARS battery of a newly formed Rocket artillery battalion
might get attached to the Korp and integrated into the FA battalion. The battalion is part of the Operational Support command of the Royal Army.


(ii) An organic RSTA (Reconnaisance, Survaillence, Target-Aquisitaton) company should be created to support the Korps. The already existing Recon assets of the Marine Battalions should remain organic to them but be exended integrated (training etc) with the RSTA unit. Micro/small UAV should form part of their equipment.

This RSTA company contains the all the necessary to fullfill the designated missions means to support the Korps. A relative large number of small UAV with long durations features among the assets, with ISR and communication roles. The Scaneagle and the larger Integrator seem to me to be appropriate choices. The supporting vehicles are trucks or Bv 206/BvS 10 for the STA part or Bv 206 or existing vehicles for the Recon part.


(iii) A organic company of armored infantry should become part of the Korps. It should provide a mobile "medium" unit capable to provide limited AT and indirect/direct firesupport. It consists of 10-12 IFV CV9035NL with ATGM (Spike) and 4 CV90M with a turreted mortar. The latter only when the Royal army aquires also a decent number. If not the 120mm mortar carrier on the basis of the BvS 10 will provide a good indirect capability.

(iv) The engineer company should be expended and become able to work with or manage attached "civilian units" for swift local reconstruction of important military and political assets.

The combat of the IED and mine threat should become also of even greater importance. This is the second key area in current operations and the enginers should be equipped with all the necessary tools to be able to fight it effectively. The RSTA unit should provide with their many endurant UAV most valuable help.


New components on the Marine battalion level:


(i) The support companies of the Marine battalions should get a mobile 120mm mortar carrier on the basis of the BvS 10. The 81mm mortars will be retained by the company and fielded when useful.

(ii) As written above the Recon capabilities of the battalions should be augmented. New small and micro drones are just a part of the it.

(iii) A robust and mobile IMV vehicle capable to withstand IEDs and mines far better than the BvS 10 should be purchased in large numbers to enable the Korps to fulfill specific missions (patrolling) in stabilization operations and COIN. The Bushmaster seems to be a good choice and is already in use in the Royal army. It should be shared across the board.

So far so good.

 

[IPA35]

I might be too much, but I agree for the most part.

The CV9035NL with Spike's should be bought for the 'normal' army.
The marine corps would need something that if amfibious.
Although I do like the mortar, they already have Patria's so maybe some of these, the same mortar is available on the cv90.

EDIT: I just learned we operate an older version of the Patria, so maybe it would be wiser to buy the Boxer with 120mm Mortar?

For the armoured brigades, maybe you can build Spike-LR/ER's on the CV90's with the Samson RCWS?

I would also ditch the HIMARS, but buy a decent amounth of them for the Army.
2 artillery units would be too much I think.

Himars should also be equipped with AMRAAMS when available.
Maybe ATACMS II too?

About tanks, we should reactivate like 44 to bring the total back to 100 (as in early 2008?).
I don't think the marine corps would need them, IFV's with AT capabilities would be enough.