RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Possible, though I would think that would only take place should the A-400M program take a nose dive, even though problems exist I should think that somewhat unlikely.
More C-17's for the RAF
- Thread starter harryriedl
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Super Nimrod
New Member
With last weeks announcement by Airbus of significant further delays - effectively a 2012-13 first delivery date for the A400M, then what chance some more C-17's now do you all think ??
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article5488920.ece
I have no idea how many that they might consider 2, 3, 4 or perhaps none at all due to Finance ?
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article5488920.ece
I have no idea how many that they might consider 2, 3, 4 or perhaps none at all due to Finance ?
Hold up, a C17 can carry 2 MBTs? The figures I read say an M1 weight 61 metric tons, thats 122 tons for 2 tanks. Isn't the payload of a C17 70 tons? How the hell have you been getting those birds off the ground loaded like that?i can speak as someone who as in the USAF and am employed by BOEING, on the C-17 program..our plane is WAY better than anything out there..it can land in 6 football fields and take off in the same space fully loaded with 2 MA1A ABRAHAMS TANKS. it only needs 90' to turn..i think its wing span..Gen.Swartscoff said that if he had this plane when GULF1 was happening he would have his gear in "1/2" the time..unlike the C-5 and C-130..both those airframes are OLDER than me..repair ..repair..so on and so forth. C-17 is a FRESH AIRFRAME with the best tech. out there..
Are my figures wildly wrong?
I haven't heard of any more plans to purchase more, but then the announcement of further A400M delays is still recent. With the funding shortages I doubt they will spring for more C17s, the RAF will probably hold out for the A400Ms now or they'll end up losing something else.
I think that if they do hold out it might be for the best, by the time it comes to actually receiving the A400Ms the current funding shortage will probably have lessened (fewer massive procurements + at least one less war draining the budget) and the government will probably have changed so they might be able to turn to the MOD and announce that 25 isn't enough and get a couple more. Doubtful, but you never know.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
With regards to your figures, they look correct. I double checked the fact sheets for both the C-17 and the C-5, and it looks like the numbers were switched by the original poster. The only other possible combination that I can come up with, would be for a C-17 to have minimal fuel, though I have not determined if that is feasible, since I have not located the empty and fuel weights of the C-17. In terms of space available in the cargo hold, it does appear possible, though it would be a tight squeeze (~6m length to spare, including the gun barrels)
It is possible that the RAF (and possibly Germany too) might elect to purchase the C-17, given the delays in the A400M program. IIRC the proposed engine just started test flights mounted on a C-130, between that, and other issues Airbus has been having in turning out aircraft, I can see more potential problems in the future. Also, giving the aging nature of RAF and Germain air transport assets, it is possible that aircraft would be reaching the end of their service-life either before the A400M enters service, or possibly at a faster rate than Airbus can produce the A400M. If either or both situations occur, then the respective air forces may find themselves with a lift capacity shortfall until Airbus can produce enough to meet existing orders and service requirements, or additional/alternate aircraft are purchased to meet services needs.
-Cheers
No chance - Germany just extended SALIS by two years until 2012. And they won't decide to buy C-17 in 2012 with serial A400M introduction just 1-2 year in the future, especially if they could just tack another two years onto SALIS for under 50 million euro.
Regarding age, the C-160s are supposed to hold until 2015-2016 anyway. Beides, depending on how the project will go on now that Russia is subbing in some money, Germany would be far more likely to buy a (small) number of An-70 to bridge gaps, or An-124-100M-150 as strategic transports, if at all. About the only reason they didn't already do that 10 years ago (and such ideas were considered then) was US pressure.
It's a different story for Britain, without any serious life extension work to the C130K's they'll be going out of service in 2012-13, which is the best possible delivery date for the A400M now.
The Defence secretary has now said that they're looking at options instead of the A400M and it's likely that more C17's will be bought. They were already considering it due to the tenuous supply routes through Pakistan to Afghanistan. They're also considering more C130J's and bringing forward the MRTT.
I hope they do buy more C17's and C130's to be honest, especially since it's just come out that the the A400's can't even meet their specified cargo capacity and are still 12 tons overweight. It's just not worth waiting for.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #27
8 C17 seems more likely now as the A400 seems to have huge problems. especially as defence news says that the A400 is overweight http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3897605&c=EUR&s=AIR
Airbus A400M Overweight, Understrength: Report
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 12 Jan 14:39 EST (19:39 GMT)
Print Print | Print Email
BERLIN - The Airbus A400 military transport plane is too heavy and does not deliver on performance, the Financial Times Deutschl and newspaper reported on Jan. 12.
The FTD cited sources which said the current version of the A400M can carry only 29-30 tons of material, instead of an expected 32 tons, and that it is itself 12 tons overweight.
Related Topics
* Europe
* Air Warfare
The European Aeronautic Defence Space Company, Airbus' parent company, will have to completely revise its plans, the newspaper said.
EADS acknowledged recently that the first delivery of an A400M would be delayed by three years, but did not give a precise date.
A total of 180 of the aircraft have been ordered so far for 20 billion euros ($26.8 billion) by OCCAR, the European organization for military cooperation that represents seven countries.
Super Nimrod
New Member
12 Tonnes overweight, really ? :unknown Thats an enormous amount even for an aircraft that large
Yeah it is, but for some reason it's only 2 tons under its specified payload weight. Maybe if they manage to shed all that extra 12 tons there'll be an extra 10 tons of payload available12 Tonnes overweight, really ? :unknown Thats an enormous amount even for an aircraft that large
I see the RAF/MOD/Govt going for more C-17s and some C-130Js. Why? C-17s are well liked strategic lifters in the RAF and seem like an over stretched resource, and More C-130Js because its a good opportunity to replace the one they lost a couple of years ago. This is of course all dependent on the budget......but thats just my opinion on the matter.
Incidently, they have already started to SLEP some C-130Ks (to a certain extent anyway, wing spars I am led to believe).
Incidently, they have already started to SLEP some C-130Ks (to a certain extent anyway, wing spars I am led to believe).
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Super Nimrod
New Member
The UK secretary of State for Defence |John Hutton effectively said in Parliament this week that they were looking for more C-17's. I guess as production of C-17's is slowly winding down that there won't be a significant delay. If I remember correctly the USA stepped aside and postponed a couple of their final deliveries the last time the UK wanted C-17's to enable an early delivery
The RAF reckoned it needed a couple more, even before the A400M delay. It could see the delay as an opportunity to get them, perhaps a couple more on top, to fill the gap.
With further delays to A400M, by the time it arrives, we'll probably still need the whole order despite getting more C-17, because of higher than planned usage wearing out the C-130Js faster than budgeted for.
With further delays to A400M, by the time it arrives, we'll probably still need the whole order despite getting more C-17, because of higher than planned usage wearing out the C-130Js faster than budgeted for.
Super Nimrod
New Member
If say they decide that they need another 5, they might buy 3 and lease the other 2 so that they could return the leased ones once the A400's start to appear.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #34
there was a document ages ago which gave the tail numbers of 8 British C17 although what it sounds like there could be even more which would be excellent as they real Strategic lift which at the moment you can't get enough of.
nice if we could get more than 10 C17 as the last heavy lift aircraft Shorts Belfast we had 10 of them
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We haven't had those since 1976. There's no point basing what the RAF needs now with what they did back then.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
I only use it as an example of the last time the UK had a large fleet of heavy lift aircraft
No, but the RAF regretted getting rid of those strategic lifters later on.
In fact i'm sure at one point they where hiring them back of the firm they sold them to.
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I think that may be a Belfast.
Big mistake for the RAF to get rid of them, IMO. Should have developed it further, & tried to flog it to the French. A mix of Transalls for short-range work, & Belfasts for bigger loads or longer ranges, would have suited both the RAF & AdlA, IMO. Same engine, too. That mix might also have appealed to others.
Big mistake for the RAF to get rid of them, IMO. Should have developed it further, & tried to flog it to the French. A mix of Transalls for short-range work, & Belfasts for bigger loads or longer ranges, would have suited both the RAF & AdlA, IMO. Same engine, too. That mix might also have appealed to others.