More C-17's for the RAF

[harryriedl]

The Times December 28, 2006


MoD pins hopes on Boeing C17 amid Airbus doubts
David Robertson



The Ministry of Defence is facing a new procurement crisis as it tries to boost the strength of its heavy transport aircraft.
As fears grow that the delivery schedule for Airbus’s rival transport aircraft will slip further, The Times has learnt that the MoD is planning to buy three Boeing C17 Globemaster IIIs for about $660 million (£337 million). But its plans are threatened by the potential closure of the C17 production line in the United States.



The Royal Air Force wants the additional C17s because it is understood to be impressed by its existing fleet and concerned about the delivery schedule for the Airbus 400M. The MoD, which leased four C17s from Boeing before buying them earlier this year, has already committed to buying a fifth in the new year.

Sources at Boeing have revealed that the British Government is in negotiations to purchase a further three, but this deal will depend on the United States Government continuing the C17 project, which is rapidly running out of orders. If production is maintained, the sixth C17 for the RAF should be delivered in 2009-10.

When Britain said in 2001 that it would lease C17s from Boeing, it caused controversy. Critics pointed out that the £769 million deal would cost more than buying the aircraft.

However, the Government originally wanted the C17s as cover while Airbus developed the A400M. Airbus was supposed to start to deliver the A400M this year, but the date slipped to 2008. Several analysts believe that 2009 or 2010 may be more likely. Airbus, which has been dogged by a two-year delay to its civil A380 project, denied that there would be further delays.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9067-2520962,00.html


3 more C17 in addtion to the 5 alredy ordered brillent!hopeful this order will keep the C17 line open for a bit longer

 

[Big-E]

Airbus just can't seem to get their act together. I don't see why the US has to keep our orders open just because RAF wants some. If you want them then place your orders and Boeing will keep the line open for you. If MoD is waiting on us to make a decision they really need to be more proactive and make a commitment.

 

[Magoo]

This is not news - the UK always had a requirement for up to eight C-17s, but could not fund them all in one hit. It leased four, then ordered a fifth and converted the leases to purchases when it found it was flying too many hours and was paying lease penalties.

The A400M has been delayed mainly due to the need to defer engineering resources to the A380 project, not because of any deficiencies with the aircraft itself. Now that Airbus's 'Power8' re-industrialisation program is under way, more engineers should be able to be taken off A380 and we should then have a better idea of how A400M is tracking. Expect delays of around two years from the original planned IOC of late 2008.

Meanwhile, the UK's extra C-17s may be funded by the deferring A400M acquisition anyway.

Cheers

Magoo

 

[Dr Phobus]

I do not think the C-17 line will be an issue here, the USAF still have orders to fill (not sure on that number, if anyone can help me), then there is Canada (4 units), Australia (3 of 4 units to deliver), Possbile Sweden, and finally UK ( 1 units ordered) and then this additional 3 more. There are still rumors congress want to buy 10 more C-17's.

The UK will have a force of 8, althought with the removal from germany of all UK forces, i would argue for an exspansion of this number.

thoughts please

 

[swerve]

....

The UK will have a force of 8, althought with the removal from germany of all UK forces, i would argue for an exspansion of this number.

thoughts please

For the moment, we're lumbered with C-130J (too small for a lot of loads!) & a handful of C-17, & the latter are grossly overworked. A few more C-17 will do nicely - we have 25 A400M on order, & they & the C-17s should be plenty, when they're delivered.

The RAF has had a problem with freighters since 1976, when some prat sold the Belfasts, without replacing them. Until the C-17s arrived, the RAF was in desperate trouble whenever it wanted to haul anything too big for a Herc. Had to charter civilian freighters - including the Belfasts it had sold, while they were still available! Bah!

At last, it's getting sorted out, with the MoD kicking & screaming all the way.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I do not think the C-17 line will be an issue here, the USAF still have orders to fill (not sure on that number, if anyone can help me), then there is Canada (4 units), Australia (3 of 4 units to deliver), Possbile Sweden, and finally UK ( 1 units ordered) and then this additional 3 more. There are still rumors congress want to buy 10 more C-17's.

The UK will have a force of 8, althought with the removal from germany of all UK forces, i would argue for an exspansion of this number.

thoughts please

I'm tempted to say "don't count your chickens before they hatch", but that would be churlish...

The RAF would benefit enormously from a fleet of 8 aircraft. Add the 25x C-130J's and future A400M's, A330 MRTT's etc and it's airlift capacity will be enormous...

 

[harryriedl]

yep i think the report was saying an offical annoncement would be soon after the contract was sorted

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I would certainly like to see the RAF with a fleet of 8 C-17s. That said I hope this won't be a case of "robbing Peter to pay Paul", as there are RN procurements that need to go ahead as well.

 

[Dr Phobus]

We all agree a force of 8, would enable a force of 5-6 to be standing at any one point. However, with increasinly need to be moblie and the clustering of the army in the UK, maybe there's a case for even more. However, lets face it i am living in dreamland on that one.

Interesting comments on the belfast, i saw one eariler this year one display at RAF Cosford, big plane.

I doubt the money will money will come from the regualr bugdet, it forces are so underfunded the government will probably come up with extra funding.

So, will we now have 2 C-17 sqaudrons, or 1 big one, or 1 sq and a OCU. Thoughts please.

 

[chrisrobsoar]

We all agree a force of 8, would enable a force of 5-6 to be standing at any one point. However, with increasinly need to be moblie and the clustering of the army in the UK, maybe there's a case for even more. However, lets face it i am living in dreamland on that one.

Interesting comments on the belfast, i saw one eariler this year one display at RAF Cosford, big plane.

I doubt the money will money will come from the regualr bugdet, it forces are so underfunded the government will probably come up with extra funding.

So, will we now have 2 C-17 sqaudrons, or 1 big one, or 1 sq and a OCU. Thoughts please.

With so few aircraft the C-17 is operated as a single squadron.

At RAF Brize Norton there are three squadrons:-


99 Sqn C-17 (4)

101 Sqn VC-10 (17 + 1 Falklands)

216 Sqn TriStar (8)

Operational conversion is carried out on the squadron, by a QFI who has an ad hoc flight and a regular tasking for an aircraft for training.

There is also a combined unit that ensures that the training requirements are maintained (and not squeezed out by operational requirements).

STANEVAL

Operations Wing is also home to 2 small specialist units. The Standards and Evaluation Unit (STANEVAL) is a small cadre of highly qualified aircrew whose task is the continuous maintenance of flying standards for VC10 ,TriStar and C-17 aircrews, as well as the provision of specialist advice on flying matters to the Station executives. The other unit is the Air Transport/Air-to-Air Refuelling Course Design Team, tasked with the provision of specialist training advice to RAF Brize Norton units, and production of computer based training material primarily related to flying training issues

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton/organisation/wing_ops.html


RAF Lynham currently has four squadrons 24, 30, 47 & 70 Sqn, 57(R) Sqn is the OCU. All aircraft are shared (44 + 1 in Falklands). As part of (another review) RAF Lynham is scheduled to close and all aircraft will be transferred to RAF Brize Norton.

Ultimately all RAF transport and refuelling aircraft will be based at RAF Brize Norton.



Chris

 

[Dr Phobus]

I have seen RAF Brize Norton when i studied at Oxford univerity. It does look that big, so to have another 4 C-17's for a total of 8 and one day 25 A-400M's, and 12 plus A-330's almost seems unreal.

Any how, so back to my question, your saying you see a combination unit being made out of 99 Sq..?

 

[chrisrobsoar]

I have seen RAF Brize Norton when i studied at Oxford univerity. It does look that big, so to have another 4 C-17's for a total of 8 and one day 25 A-400M's, and 12 plus A-330's almost seems unreal.

Any how, so back to my question, your saying you see a combination unit being made out of 99 Sq..?

99 Sqn will operate 8 C-17 aircraft. Training will be carried out within the squadron, but supervised by STANEVAL, who have the responsibility to ensure that standards are maintained for aircrew flying all aircraft types.

In the future RAF Brize Norton will operate at least the following: -

8 C-17
12 MRRT (Replacing 18 VC10)
8 Tristar (Planned to be replaced by MRRT & A400M, but may be retained)
25 A400M
25 C-130J (both short & long variants) & 19 C-130K (both short & long variants, until replaced by A400M) - Transfered from RAF Lynham

It is also planned to close RAF Northolt, which currently operates HS125 and Bae 146 aircraft these may also be transferred to RAF Brize Norton.

In addition there are plans to procure C-27J aircraft for the RAF and the Army, at present it is not known where these aircraft will be deployed.

In is likely that RAF Brize Norton will be the base for 80 - 100 aircraft.


BTW: When the fog caused BA to cancel its domestic flights from Heathrow, Brize was closed and all returning traffic was diverted to Manchester.

All eggs in one basket?

In the light of the above the closure of RAF Lynham may be reviewed.

Chris

 

[Super Nimrod]

First I have heard of the C-27J being mentioned for the RAF/Army. Has this been officially flagged up as being an option ?

I just wish that they would get the MRTT contract up and running and decide what they are going to do with the Tristars. They should take Marshalls up on their offer to procure some low hours ones from Storage and convert them to tanker combi's ASAP, as all we read about are current Tristar reliability issues.

 

[chrisrobsoar]

First I have heard of the C-27J being mentioned for the RAF/Army. Has this been officially flagged up as being an option ?

I just wish that they would get the MRTT contract up and running and decide what they are going to do with the Tristars. They should take Marshalls up on their offer to procure some low hours ones from Storage and convert them to tanker combi's ASAP, as all we read about are current Tristar reliability issues.

Some of the RAF operators have been keen on the C-27J for some time. The feeling is that for Special Operations the C-27J would be better than the short version of the C-130J (indeed some prefer the short version of the C-130K over the C-130J in this role).

The Army will soon need a replacement for the Islanders and there a few other odd-ball aircraft that need to be replaced.

Studies have been underway for over a year looking at possible replacement platforms, the C-27J is a good candidate. As they are at the pre-IPT stage no formal options have yet been offered, but I would expect recommendations will be forthcoming next year.

BTW Marshalls will almost certainly relocate from Cambridge within the next 5 years. They are running out of space and are getting a hard time from the local Council, who what the airport to be developed for commercial purposes. A nearby recently vacated RAF airfield has been selected and the contracted should be signed during this year. It is expected that the new site will be refurbished and the transfer will take place over a period of several years (2 – 3 years). Remaining relatively close to Cambridge will allow key staff to be retained and commute to the new site. An additional benefit is that the MoD married quarters will also be included in the deal allowing existing staff or new staff to re-locate. (Housing around Cambridge is very expensive).

The transfer is likely to be carried out on a project-by-project basis allowing work to be conducted in parallel.


Chris

 

[Super Nimrod]

Interesting stuff....... thanks. We will just have to keep an eye out now for an announcement re the new C-17's.

I reckon there has to be a major announcement of some kind in the next few weeks. The UK Government are coming under almost daily pressure publicly now from their own senior officers and the newspapers about the poor funding of the military. Hence they may feel the need to announce that they are doing something just to save face and dampen the demands. nfloorl:

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I reckon there has to be a major announcement of some kind in the next few weeks. The UK Government are coming under almost daily pressure publicly now from their own senior officers and the newspapers about the poor funding of the military. Hence they may feel the need to announce that they are doing something just to save face and dampen the demands.

Unless they announce a big increase in available funds for the military overall, the pressure isn't going to let up. I hope it just keeps mounting and mounting, until the Treasury backs down.

 

[mikeh0128]

MORE RAF & USAF C-17's

i can speak as someone who as in the USAF and am employed by BOEING, on the C-17 program..our plane is WAY better than anything out there..it can land in 6 football fields and take off in the same space fully loaded with 2 MA1A ABRAHAMS TANKS. it only needs 90' to turn..i think its wing span..Gen.Swartscoff said that if he had this plane when GULF1 was happening he would have his gear in "1/2" the time..unlike the C-5 and C-130..both those airframes are OLDER than me..repair ..repair..so on and so forth. C-17 is a FRESH AIRFRAME with the best tech. out there..

 

[Magoo]

i can speak as someone who as in the USAF and am employed by BOEING, on the C-17 program..our plane is WAY better than anything out there..it can land in 6 football fields and take off in the same space fully loaded with 2 MA1A ABRAHAMS TANKS. it only needs 90' to turn..i think its wing span..Gen.Swartscoff said that if he had this plane when GULF1 was happening he would have his gear in "1/2" the time..unlike the C-5 and C-130..both those airframes are OLDER than me..repair ..repair..so on and so forth. C-17 is a FRESH AIRFRAME with the best tech. out there..

Gen Swartscoff???

I think even the C-130J and the C-5M are older than you!

 

[Izzy1]

i can speak as someone who as in the USAF and am employed by BOEING, on the C-17 program..our plane is WAY better than anything out there..it can land in 6 football fields and take off in the same space fully loaded with 2 MA1A ABRAHAMS TANKS. it only needs 90' to turn..i think its wing span..Gen.Swartscoff said that if he had this plane when GULF1 was happening he would have his gear in "1/2" the time..unlike the C-5 and C-130..both those airframes are OLDER than me..repair ..repair..so on and so forth. C-17 is a FRESH AIRFRAME with the best tech. out there..

Said it here before, say it again. I'll trade 40 Typhoon for a full sqaudron of C-17s. Don't ask what I'd do to put a drouge probe on them to make them trully 'global'.

They're the only thing now keeping the Falklands British!

 

[harryriedl]

Said it here before, say it again. I'll trade 40 Typhoon for a full sqaudron of C-17s. Don't ask what I'd do to put a drouge probe on them to make them trully 'global'.

They're the only thing now keeping the Falklands British!

a full sqadron thats how many birds 8-12 more? boeing seems to belive that there will be another order for the C17 from the RAF