Modernization of a land forces of Russia begins

[eckherl]

If you have that last report, please let me know.

However, according to Jane's World Armies (online update 05 Oct 2007):

T-54/55 1,031 in service.
T-62 689 in service. (As Chrom says, with the MOI).
T-72 2,144 in service. *(Several hundred converted to T-90 standard).
T-80 3,044 in service.
T-90 150 in service.

BMP-1 1,543 in service.
BMP-2 3,055 in service.

BTR-60 17 in service. (Ceremonial).
BTR-70 726 in service.
BTR-80 842 in service.

2S4 240mm SP-Mortar 9 in service.
2S3 152mm SP-Howitzer 1,004 in service.
2S5 152mm SP-Howitzer 399 in service.
2S19 152mm SP-Howitzer 173 in service.
2S1 122mm SP-Howitzer 1,037 in service.
2S9 120mm Gun/Mortar 322 in service.
2S23 120mm Gun/Mortar 1 in service. (Ceremonial).

The once huge stocks of M-30 122mm and D-30 122mm now number a combined total of 750 according to JWA.

SS-1, SS-21 and Frog-7 numbers combined to a total of 600.

Another 600 tubes held in storage for systems like the 152mm D-20, 152mm 2S65 and 120mm 2S12 mortar.


No one can argue, they are very impressive numbers.


But I do wonder if Russia has:

(1) The trained crews to use them to maximum effect.
(2) The logistic capability to support them.
(3) Apart from the T-90 and BMP-3 (22 in service - Ceremonial), you can read about all of the above in the US DoD's "Soviet Military Power 1986" and more. 1986...! Over 20 years ago.

It's legacy kit and I don't see anything radically different or new coming through. Old doctrine, old ideas but comfortable.

Perhaps I'm wrong????

No you are correct for the most part, we a seeing a slight shift in their battle doctrine though.

 

[Vladimir80]

If you have that last report, please let me know.

However, according to Jane's World Armies (online update 05 Oct 2007):

T-54/55 1,031 in service.

Perhaps I'm wrong????

T-54/55 = 0

Jane's database is notrious for not updating specific sections without multiple confirmations. The clearing of old stocks has been evident for some time with latest to Iraq...

Under the purchase ViVT to 2007 Iraqi government plan, in particular to: 72 T-55 tanks and 77 T-72; 110 infantry fighting vehicles BMP-1 and 29 Brazilian EE-9 "Kaskavel"; 29 BTR-80 ( 336 armoured personnel carriers at the beginning of 2008); 247 Polish armoured "Djik, 149 T-6" Bedzher "American company Textron, 13 South African REVA; 952 armoured vehicle "Hamwi" American company AM General.

Those that are not upgraded are not used in training. Those that are in the best condition are slated for modernization will be used in emergency, not old T-55s. Those have been sent from storage years ago to Rosboronexport for resale or scrapped for metals needed in our building boom. Ivanov decided some 4-5 years ago to shut those wasteful storage facilities down when he ran out of money for pay increase.

 

[Izzy1]

Eckherl, when it comes to armour on DT, you and Waylander have my ears.

Please, Russian doctrine in your opinion...

 

[Izzy1]

T-54/55 = 0
Jane's database is notorious for not updating specific sections without multiple confirmations.

Notorious (correct spelling) - why, why is it notorious? Why has it got it right for the last 60 years?

Until you Vladimir, put something better equipped, referenced, respected and sourced in front of me - I'll keep believing Jane's. Thank you very much.

Jog on, and search.

 

[eckherl]

Eckherl, when it comes to armour on DT, you and Waylander have my ears.

Please, Russian doctrine in your opinion...

The old cold war fighting in echelons are pretty much over with Russia for the future modern battlefield that they may face, we will most likely see them fight with smaller smarter well equipped units giving more responsibilities and flexability to waging a fight down to the company commander and platoon leader levels, the professional level of their junior officers and NCO ranks have made great strides in training. Here are some examples: Handling logistical support, Calling in indirect fire and air support.
US and NATO tactics for air land battle. I was stunned a few years ago when I met some Russian junior officers at Fort Knox who had a understanding on how we established our tanks in over watch positions and how they knew some of our movement to contact battle formations like combat wedges and death star as a few examples.
We will see more mixed mechanized infantry and armor brigades with their own artillery and helicopter assets attached to them giving the brigade and battalion commanders more options and control to carry the fight to the enemy. Do they still have a long way to go, yes. We will see them split in two categories for the Army, heavy units and light quick reactionary units, which in my opinion they have some of the best light and airborne armor that is currently out there.

 

[eckherl]

T-54/55 = 0

Jane's database is notrious for not updating specific sections without multiple confirmations. The clearing of old stocks has been evident for some time with latest to Iraq...



Those that are not upgraded are not used in training. Those that are in the best condition are slated for modernization will be used in emergency, not old T-55s. Those have been sent from storage years ago to Rosboronexport for resale or scrapped for metals needed in our building boom. Ivanov decided some 4-5 years ago to shut those wasteful storage facilities down when he ran out of money for pay increase.

Russia still has T-55 and T-62s in their inventory slated for secondary and interior forces. My source would be U.S Department Of Defense, Russia even uses T-64 tanks for driver tank training.

 

[eckherl]

Modernization of Russian land forces has been on back burner of the duma for quite some time. Before I begin informing on the equipment it is important you know what has been going on with personell. When I served and to this day men complain of housing complex, never enough housing for an ever shrinking force has been the biggest shame to everyone. Ivanov began some reform of it when Putin shoved it down his throat. Now that he is gone we don't know if they continue the policy. The second matter is kontrakt soldiers, Ivanov said we would always have conscript but Putin has vowed to do away with it and since Ivanov is gone, we may just get all professional army. The target is for 70% in few years time. Many of those who end up in kontrakt were women but know more men come with better conditions. The pay for kontrakt was good when I entered and it continues to rise. The priority of funds has been to make living conditions better. We are concerned with Far North suicide rates so we give extended leave to these men. With the economy booming under Putin we are seeing many much needed funds for base infrastructure and paying overdue electricity bills. The lead of our grandfathers is being punished by our commanders as officers pay more attention to it in recent death. These changes will make ground forces the equal of any army come 2015.

On to equipment... having been in an ATGM capacity I know the need to replace the so called "Cold War" era weapons was needed. Much has been allocated for Kornet, Metis, and RPG-29 systems. The event that speeded up procurement was the performance during 06' Lebanon invasion. Old systems like Konkurs Fagot was not effective against modern western armor. The Kornet, Metis, and RPG-29 caused havoc on Israeli armor, the small numbers Hezbollah fielded was enough to make IDF rethink their strategy. If they had been fielded in large numbers the entire invasion could have been repelled. Most of the big ticket items have gone to Navy and Space Forces with the nuklear and GLONASS replacements. The tank forces have been getting upgrades to T-72 and T-80 to keep them modern at the rate of 200 a year. Only a few dozen T-90s order every year, tank upgrades take priority. The future outlook on tank procurement is development of T-95. The tank chasis went through trials in Saudi last year to see how it fairs in desert environment. It is a low profile tank that takes less manpower, less weight and fuel. It is LO so Global Hawk will not detect it. A main gun anywhere from 135-155mm will be the armament. The Black Eagle is cancelled in favor of this design. Thousands of trucks have been purchased from KamAZ to replace the aging fleet. Purchases of BTR-80 come in 100 a year with BMP-3 at 40. Iskander TDM is GLONASS guided weapon bought in 3 batallions annually.

Chechnya taught lecons of need for highly trained spotters and proper integration of unit and command. These changes were implented during my Dagestan campaign and executed to great effect through Grozny and at the last stand at Komsomolskoye. The way we find to combat wahabist are to hold them up leaving a slight corrider for civilians to escape. Once suitable time is given we annhilate the remaining enemy. As we continue to fight a war on terror we will continue to use this effective method that defeat the wahabists.

So who should Israel blame for Hezbolla getting a hold of Kornet anti tank missiles.

 

[Chrom]

Notorious (correct spelling) - why, why is it notorious? Why has it got it right for the last 60 years?

It hasnt got it right. It was also wrong in the past

Until you Vladimir, put something better equipped, referenced, respected and sourced in front of me - I'll keep believing Jane's. Thank you very much.

Jog on, and search.

About complete T-55 retirement - there was countless (half-official) interviews and articles.

 

[Vladimir80]

Notorious (correct spelling) - why, why is it notorious? Why has it got it right for the last 60 years?

Until you Vladimir, put something better equipped, referenced, respected and sourced in front of me - I'll keep believing Jane's. Thank you very much.

Jog on, and search.

It is common knowledge the T-55 was officially withdrawn from service in 1994... excuse me, common knowledge in MY country. If you want to give me an English lecon to someone who speaks as a second language is rude. Here is your source.

После распада Советского Союза надежные боевые машины активно использовались в конфликтах на Кавказе. и только В 1994г в России Т-55 был снят с вооружения

btvt.narod.ru/2/t55inwar.htm

Translation...

After the collapse of the Soviet reliable fighting vehicles were to be used in conflicts in the Caucasus. It was only in 1994 that Russian T-55 was withdrawn from service.

It is hard to post sources as I don't have enough posts. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. I don't care quite frankly.

 

[eckherl]

It hasnt got it right. It was also wrong in the past

About complete T-55 retirement - there was countless (half-official) interviews and articles.

Why are they listed then for secondary and interior forces, I do realize that frontline troops are not equipped with them.

 

[Izzy1]

It hasnt got it right. It was also wrong in the past

About complete T-55 retirement - there was countless (half-official) interviews and articles.

IT!!!!

Say that again.

 

[Vladimir80]

IT!!!!

Say that again.

He said IT.. Jane's Defence was wrong! Heaven forbid. :shudder

 

[Izzy1]

Fine. I retract.

Numbers, and valid sources, please...

 

[eckherl]

It is common knowledge the T-55 was officially withdrawn from service in 1994... excuse me, common knowledge in MY country. If you want to give me an English lecon to someone who speaks as a second language is rude. Here is your source.



Translation...

After the collapse of the Soviet reliable fighting vehicles were to be used in conflicts in the Caucasus. It was only in 1994 that Russian T-55 was withdrawn from service.

It is hard to post sources as I don't have enough posts. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. I don't care quite frankly.

You say that the T-55 was withdrawn in 1994 but why was Russia still upgrading them to T-55 AM2PB standard for units until the year 2000.

 

[Izzy1]

He said IT.. Jane's Defence was wrong! Heaven forbid. :shudder

You seem to know the answers Vladmir - I'm here all day too.


Numbers, source AND referance please:

 

[Vladimir80]

You say that the T-55 was withdrawn in 1994 but why was Russia still upgrading them to T-55 AM2PB standard for units until the year 2000.

As stated it was part of refurbishment for resale. We have been selling them for a long time to start up militaries.

 

[eckherl]

As stated it was part of refurbishment for resale. We have been selling them for a long time to start up militaries.

Which countries have purchased them, Russia designed this model for the former East Germans who in return sold them back to Russia around the 1991 time frame. This version carries the AT-10 advanced Stabber missile FCS. I know of no other countries that have this particular model, Russia seemed to want to keep it solely for their upgrade use only.

 

[Vladimir80]

Which countries have purchased them, Russia designed this model for the former East Germans who in return sold them back to Russia around the 1991 time frame. This version carries the AT-10 advanced Stabber missile FCS. I know of no other countries that have this particular model, Russia seemed to want to keep it solely for their upgrade use only.

We sold 500 to the Northern Alliance.

guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,579008,00.html

We have used Belarus as a client state to supply them to Tajikistan, Angola and Algeria among others. We never wanted to use them when we cut the tank divisions, we had plenty of more modern tanks to arm them.

 

[Grand Danois]

We sold 500 to the Northern Alliance.

guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,579008,00.html

We have used Belarus as a client state to supply them to Tajikistan, Angola and Algeria among others. We never wanted to use them when we cut the tank divisions, we had plenty of more modern tanks to arm them.

The article refers to the 40-50 T-55 the NA recieved prior to the post 9-11 assault on Taliban. Not the ones delivered to Dostum (perhaps five hundred).

 

[Chrom]

Another article in russian - http://www.t62.ru/t55.html.
"T-55 is out of service since 1994".

http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w2/02_omsk.htm
"Many not rich countries use T-55 and T-62 to this day. Specifically for them upgraded variants of T-55 and T-62 was indroduced"

http://www.wps.ru/ru/pp/military/2005/05/28.html

"More than 20000 T-55 and T-62 are in service around the world. Omsk plant developed an upgrade for them"

http://warzon.ru/index.php?action=article&razdel=tanks&country=ussor&id=4
"T-54/55 were retired in 1994"

Etc. etc. NOWHERE you will find what Russia plan upgrading OWN T-55. Becouse there are none in active service. NOWHERE you will find what Russia plan to upgrade T-62 for own army - becouse few remaining ones are in training units and interior forces.
T-55/T-62 upgrade - is PURERY export project. Some as BMP-1 upgrades. Some as BTR-60/70/80 upgrades. Some as Mig-21/23/27 upgrades.

Janes presented wrong information numerous times - not becouse they are bad of course. Just noone is perfect, and Janes is not either.

T-55 was OFFICIALLY put out if service in 1994. This doesnt mean what they magicaly disappeared from russian territory. Few ones still remained in training untis or some distant places like Chinese border - mostly in unmovable conditions.

P.S. Check even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-54/55 - you'll notice Russia is NOT in the list of current T-55 operators....