Middle East Defence & Security

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Power plants strikes are postponed. He is talking to… someone he doesn’t want to say who because he doesn’t want him to get killed, but he is a great and respected leader he thinks (presumably the speaker pf parliament). They wiped out everybody, the first, the second and much of the third… don’t recall the word he used, call it level. Talks have been very productive. He will control the strait together with the ayatollah, who he doesn’t know whether alive or dead. Also, there can be no supreme leader because he had been killed and there can be only one (laughing). And so on. Market is ripping, oil is down, everything is great. Iran, in the meantime, says that none of it is happening and there were no talks. Israeli source says that it is another Monday when Trump has bought a little more time before marines do what they will, while Israel will continue their campaign, but avoid energy infrastructure for now.

Another Monday indeed. Living in virtual reality.
 

uguduwa

Member
Middle East war live: Trump hails ‘productive’ talks with Iran on ending war


First taco I am glad that happened
Depends on how Iran reacts of course. But assuming they activate the Houthis and close Bab al-Mandab, you'd lose the 3-4 million bpd that the Saudis can export through there. Of course you would lose everything the Iranians export through Kharg, but it's unclear how much they could divert to Jask. They're currently around 2 million bpd, maybe you could get 500k through Jask?

The other variable is Fujairah, where the UAE exports what they can. There have been strikes there but it's still operational. If the Iranians up the strike volume to the point of a shutdown, you lose an additional 1-2 million bpd.

So really you are talking about an additional supply disruption of around 5-7%

Now consider that Trump just lifted sanctions on Iranian oil and you have to wonder, why exactly would they want Kharg? Feels like a misdirection to me.
No idea what they are even going to do on Kharg. As if Iranians are suffering from a lack of targets. There are also talks of bringing 82nd to ME as well.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
Certainly murky and certainly not power plants; and not the US.

.
Israel still bombing Iran, including a pipeline supplying a power plant.
According to EFE (but I couldn't find it) according to the IDF and "confirmed"
according to FARS.

Then...
Yes, someone pointed out to Trump that the best option to get strait open to navigation again is to stop bombing Iran? Or is Trump preparing a peace with honour/Nixon escalation?
Does Trump need the pretence of "talks" to declare victory (again) and to tell Israel to play only in Lebanon ("We are with the invaded country", I think I read somewhere; or it was with the attacked country?); Trump can always invade Cuba... (again.)

"Ironically, Iran is probably in a stronger negotiating position today than it was before the Trump-Netanyahu war of aggression. Back then, Iran wanted to avoid bombardment. Now, it has suffered the worst – decapitation of its leadership, destruction of much of its military, attacks on its forces of domestic repression. The regime has much less left to lose."
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Fog of war.

And a bit of market manipulation.
A couple of days ago in the space of a minute, $800 million in trades was made on oil futures. A few minutes after that Trump made an announcement that peace negotiations had commenced with Iran. Not the first time that there have been big market moves minutes before Trump makes an announcement. Trump even brags about how much money his billionaire supporters are making.

Anyway even as you are experiencing the pain of rising fuel prices you can at least feel happy for Trump and his billionaire supporters cleaning up on the stock market.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
The Iranian military has denied that any form of negotiations are taking place.

The denial came from the military; if there are any conversations from sections of the political class, we don't know.

Can't rule out there are some kind of indirect feelers via third parties, but Trump may well be too optimistic (charitably) or delusional. The more he tries to embellish it (important person that he does not name), the more skeptical we should be.

 

Ben Dhyani

New Member
The Iranian military has denied that any form of negotiations are taking place.

The denial came from the military; if there are any conversations from sections of the political class, we don't know.

Can't rule out there are some kind of indirect feelers via third parties, but Trump may well be too optimistic (charitably) or delusional. The more he tries to embellish it (important person that he does not name), the more skeptical we should be.

Most Asian stock markets jumped 2% on the news, and oil price dropping, now European markets are doing the same, therein could be the plan.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
The Iranian military has denied that any form of negotiations are taking place.
What we do know, I think, is that Trump has one and the same play every time and probably can make some predictions based on that. For instance, when he first put tariffs on China, China retaliated immediately, markets reacted just as fast, and Trump started “negotiating”, while China either denied the negotiations were taking place or remained silent through out the process. Basically Trump continued negotiating with himself, “correcting” the markets, promising some deal, until complete, then new term, but what is now known as, TACO. It has been the exact same play every time ever since. Best play for the opponent that can inflict pain is retaliate with the maximum pain and then do nothing until Trump comes to terms that are acceptable. The problem here is that Iran is getting trashed in the meantime, so the stakes are much higher and so is the incentive to deescalate as soon as possible, which is not necessarily the best strategy. Making things more complicated is the number of parties potentially involved on the Iranian side, though all appear to be hardliners and most more so than before.


Yesterday, the “leaked” 15-point (that has 14 points) proposal has shown some serious concessions by the US compared to its original reported position. The biggest one is, of course, the sanctions, presumably all sanctions will be lifted if Iran agrees to terms. This had never been on the table before. Second is the missile program: while previously the demand was a complete dismantling of the program, it would now be permitted, though with some significant limitations not yet reported.

IMG_4540.jpeg

It is pretty clear that at least 1, 3, 5, and 10 are not likely acceptable to Iran. 11 is nonsensical because Iran had never used its missiles otherwise. 7 and 8 are the same thing. 2, 4, and 6 already happened and had been a thing under the JCPOA, which Trump foolishly abandoned. 9 basically recognizes Iranian control over the Strait of Hormuz, which has already been accepted de-facto now.

IMG_4554.jpeg

14 makes no sense provided 12 takes place. 12 probably (?) cannot happen without the US congress involvement, which will take months and far from guaranteed to pass -> Israel and the US refills interceptor stocks in the meantime, while Iran’s ability to restore the missile production capabilities is likely constrained in the short term. The question of deterrence via closure of the strait remains to be key and forcing better/acceptable terms via maximum pressure - that is, keeping the strait closed - may be a more attractive alternative (ie, the scenario I described above - apply pressure and do nothing).

Of course, another viable explanation is pretend to negotiate while preparing for the next stage of hostilities and inclusion of sanctions relief clause provides for “see, I genuinely tried and they refuse to negotiate”, so the war will continue and we have to send our troops in, in spite of us being victorious already, but we have to finish the job.

Notably, according to CNN, Iranians have informed the US that they will not negotiate with Witkoff and Trump-in-law, but will with Vance, who is probably one of the most prominent we-should-not-have-done-it-in-the-first-place crew representative and has been completely sidelined here so far.

It’s a mess. Like almost everything else Trump touched since last January. We will see what happens. In the meantime, the gas price at the same pump here that I mentioned previously is up another 10 cents per litre since my previous post on the subject, meaning that the gas prices here are up about 64% since the war began.


IMG_4535.jpeg

When he said that and then asked… “Steven”, I think it was, he looked exactly like he did when he talked about injecting bleach back in the covid days and asking someone about it, exact same expression and body language. That clearly says that he has no clue and does not understand what is happening. But to play along, the regime changed and more radical group of people with the same core beliefs ended up on top, the leader is now younger, has personal grudges on top of ideological bullshit, and so on.

IMG_4338.jpeg

I do not remember who, I think it was one of the American senators, who recently said that they will basically keep killing people until a Rodriguez comes along. My amazement and concern is that these people simply fail to recognize the differences between the two places and people and their priorities they are dealing with. It’s like they do not have knowledgeable advisors and do not consult expert community at all. It’s really weird stuff.

Anyway, have a good day/night, depending on where you are, y’all.


Edit: Regarding the 15-point plan:


Some of the reports are not entirely true, never confirmed, etc. It’s probably true, haha. Except the point #15 is missing.
 
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rsemmes

Active Member
Targeting.
A very good article, a lot more than what I had read.

The Guardian view on Israel’s war in Lebanon: allies must not accept a repeat of the crimes in Gaza
Should allies not accept another illegal war?
 

Ikimieli

New Member
Yes, same thing everywhere.

But the scale in Iran might be different.

Especially in Islamic world, who asks the opinion of their women for example ?

Does it even count if they would want things to be different ?

There might be a lot of people who are supressed, and keep silent.

In US and countries like that, people can say it openly.

A change of things might be welcomed by many.

But what they want might not either be the change that US wants to bring. But something else entirely.

And who are the ones causing all these problems everywhere. I do daresay that they are all males ?
 
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rsemmes

Active Member
A disaster looking for a place to happen. (In Indochina it was an ambush looking for a place to happen.)

All options are bad or worse and none of them is easy; Trump should declare victory and stop bombing.
"The U.S. deployed a much larger force when it invaded Iraq, but the fighting dragged on for years." Rep. Seth Moulton, D-Mass.

How many weeks (of oil war) to deploy, stockpile and get ready to go? Go where, to do what? The "Uranium Operation" is going to be launched at the same time or have we forgotten about it already? How many kilos in how many places?
Taking Kharg does not mean that Iran is going to open the strait; hopefully, someone told Hegseth that. How long was the Iran-Irak war? How long can Iran take it with US and Israel kiling Irani children? Is Russia (and China) interested in keeping Iran "in the fight"?
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
As per the article:

- 30 to 40% of refining capacity has been destroyed or damaged in the Gulf by the Iranian strikes;
- repairs could take up to three years;
- 11 million barrels a day are off the market;
- several months to restart the facilities that were shut down;
- Meloni took an emergency trip to Algeria to find replacement for the Qatari LNG;
- Lagarde says that ECB has several options to deal with the inflation shock caused by the war and won’t be paralyzed by hesitation.


Panicans? (C) Trump.


In the meantime, Rubio is quoting Hegseth from a few days ago. Yes, both actually said it:



Trump says that Iranians are begging to make a deal, but he is not sure he will. Remember the one play I talked about in my previous post? Exact same development as with China and others who didn’t budge:





WSJ reported that 10,000 more marines are on the way or just about in addition to those who are already en route.

Reportedly, Russia continues doing nothing for its strategic partner:



And Pezeshkian posts tweets in Russian thanking Putin and Russian people (the tweet translated by Grok from Russian, as can be seen):



Trumper pundits are asking Americans if they would rather get nuked by Iran instead of paying 50 cents more per gallon of gas.



Well, would you want Iran send nuke missiles to your home in America?

Israelis, reportedly, say that island ops are too dangerous and they should just bomb the energy infrastructure in Iran extensively instead:



Collateral damage:



Markets are starting to to clue in (surprisingly long after):



Super analysts are offering negotiating strategy:



Saw another recommendation based on the Yugoslavia experience, bombing the place until capitulation. They said it only lasted 75 days and only 150,000 of NATO boots. Some people are really obtuse. Imagine, beside other factors, comparing population of what is now Serbia and the territory to that of what is Iran today.

Anyway… some reading suggestions.

A good thread on Kharg:


On other islands:


On the strait, an NYT article that appears to have no paywall and has nice pics and illustrations:


Reality as suggested by Citrinowitcz:


The infamous “Laundry fire” takes this carrier out for 14 months:


An excellent read on the current reported “top Iranian guy” (he isn’t):


Or via the archive if paywalled: https://archive.is/KKCwy

US troops dislocated in the Middle East are now “working from home” due to the strikes on the American bases, making some of them uninhabitable (NYT via the archive):


Enough for today with the reading material. Lastly, those who followed probably remember these exact same memes from China negotiations last April:



They are going multilingual this round:



Last one:

 
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