Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[John Fedup]

Agree, the additional crew requirements for 2 CV/CVNs are an expensive long term cost. same applies to aircraft although they could be dual use, AF and naval. The willingness of Euro members to help out may be the key to one or two ships wrt escorts, crewing, and aircraft. If not, it may be an indication that the viability of EU defence cooperation is somewhat fragile.

 

[StobieWan]

NUWARD is planned to provide around 170 MWe output in civilian applications, which suggests an overall usable power output in the 350-500 MWt range, or around three times the output of K15.

The involvement of both Technicatome and Naval Group in NUWARD firmly suggests a future use of it or a derivative project in naval propulsion.


Manning concerns have been mentioned here and there, including as to the size of a single carrier already.

Manning concerns would be the big driver I'm sure - the RN has had to perform a very active balancing act to get to where it is now with their force levels.

There was talk of a European defence force at one point with some shared infrastructure - the UK was the main opponent to that but if Germany and France did engineer some closer ties for defence, I suppose you might see some exchanges of escorts.

I can't see it happening myself.

 

[kato]

if Germany and France did engineer some closer ties for defence, I suppose you might see some exchanges of escorts.
I can't see it happening myself.

Kinda late for that. The last deployment of the Charles de Gaulle CSG conducted entirely with only French assets for escort was the first Operation Chammal deployment in 2014.

Since early 2015 (i.e. 5.5 years) Charles de Gaulle was formally deployed for about 25 months - 22 months were spent in refit, 19 months in pre-/post-deployment and smaller training exercises.

During these deployments she spent:

• 15% not escorted by ships of another European Navy (half of it on a combat deployment, other half on a cruise to India and Singapore)
• 60% on combat deployment overseas (strikes in Syria and Iraq) escorted by German, British and Spanish frigates on rotation.
• 25% escorted by Danish, Portuguese and Belgian frigates (2-4 months at a time each) on training and presence deployments within mostly European waters (and beyond that - Red Sea).

This does not include joint training and temporary integration into the CSG for a few weeks with Italian, Greek, Dutch, German, Belgian, British, Portuguese, Danish and Spanish ships during this time.

During the "off time", in particular when Charles de Gaulle was in refit, German and Spanish instead were integrated into US carrier groups for - each - around 4 month deployments, although not for combat.

 

[swerve]

Developing a new reactor for one or two vessels at most, an awfully expensive proposition, especially post- COVID. If the reactor used for SSBNs could be tweaked for greater output or perhaps trying to accommodate two of them in a future carrier may be be the best path for the nuclear option.

From a cost perspective, perhaps a design similar to QE(CATOBAR modified) with an additional MT30 is the best option assuming this setup has the power for EMALS and IEP. Anybody know if steam catapults are still available? Is the waste heat from the GTs sufficient for generating the required steam or would a separate steam production system be needed?

When David Cameron appointed an idiot as Defence secretary & he decided to switch the QEs to cat & trap without bothering to check the cost & timescale, talk was of adding a separate steam generator. There was definitely not enough waste heat.

I don't think anyone is building steam catapults. The Chinese have been reported to be working on EM catapults. Maybe it'd be possible to buy & refurbish steam catapults from a retiring US CVN, but why?

 

[KiwiRob]

Manning concerns would be the big driver I'm sure - the RN has had to perform a very active balancing act to get to where it is now with their force levels.

There was talk of a European defence force at one point with some shared infrastructure - the UK was the main opponent to that but if Germany and France did engineer some closer ties for defence, I suppose you might see some exchanges of escorts.

I can't see it happening myself.

Remember last year Merkle said Germany was interested in an aircraft carrier, the sensible approach to this would be to team up with France, building 2 or potentially 3 modified cat and trap Queen Elizabeths would make a lot of sense.

 

[ngatimozart]

Remember last year Merkle said Germany was interested in an aircraft carrier, the sensible approach to this would be to team up with France, building 2 or potentially 3 modified cat and trap Queen Elizabeths would make a lot of sense.

Yes it would make sense, especially if they were conventionally powered. A Franco - German CBG would be pretty powerful, especially with French SSNs lurking in the neighbourhood and German SSKs nosing around. The French and Germans are getting closer militarily and if Germany increases its defence spending to 2% GDP they would have a very strong military.

A combined French - German carrier aircraft program to replace the Rafale in French service would work, possibly 5.5 or 6 gen. They would also have to design a carrier capable AEW&C and a COD. Either modifying a CN235 to create a naval variant, or using a tiltrotor. Augusta Westland have a tiltrotor, the AW609, that they have been flying for a while and are waiting for FAA certification for civilian sales. The aircraft is small, but the technology itself can be used on a future aircraft.

Of course it all comes down to money and there's not much of that spare at the moment.

 

[Ananda]

They would also have to design a carrier capable AEW&C and a COD. Either modifying a CN235 to create a naval variant, or using a tiltrotor. Augusta Westland have a tiltrotor, the AW609, that they have been flying for a while and are waiting for FAA certification for civilian sales. The aircraft is small, but the technology itself can be used on a future aircraft.

With maturity of tiltrotor technology, I do have impression the next generation COD or AEW&C will use aircraft on that aspects of performance.

The USN already moving to tiltrotor for their next COD. The space available also for taking over the roles of AEW&C even ASW and rescue. Using Osprey for ASW, AEW and COD will be more efficient, then using three separate airplane as doing right now.
However for Euro tiltrotor, I just wondering whether there will be enough market to justify AW/Leonardo developing Tiltrotor in Osprey class.

Combining both German and French resources, will be 'theoritically' provide enough capabilities for two or even three well equip CBG. Somehow French and German cooperation on that level, seems relative more likely compare to other Euro nation, and certainly not with UK.

Question is right now, whether both Armed Forces can have more integrated scope of Operations and priority to make it workable on long term projection.

 

[Redlands18]

With maturity of tiltrotor technology, I do have impression the next generation COD or AEW&C will use aircraft on that aspects of performance.

The USN already moving to tiltrotor for their next COD. The space available also for taking over the roles of AEW&C even ASW and rescue. Using Osprey for ASW, AEW and COD will be more efficient, then using three separate airplane as doing right now.
However for Euro tiltrotor, I just wondering whether there will be enough market to justify AW/Leonardo developing Tiltrotor in Osprey class.

Combining both German and French resources, will be 'theoritically' provide enough capabilities for two or even three well equip CBG. Somehow French and German cooperation on that level, seems relative more likely compare to other Euro nation, and certainly not with UK.

Question is right now, whether both Armed Forces can have more integrated scope of Operations and priority to make it workable on long term projection.

https://www.nothropgrumman.com/air/e-2d-advanced-hawkeye/

The USN has only just upgraded to the latest Hawkeye model, so they wont be interest in a Osprey based system anytime soon. The RN are currently introducing the Crowsnest system based on the Merlin Helicopter, so same there.

 

[Todjaeger]

https://www.nothropgrumman.com/air/e-2d-advanced-hawkeye/

The USN has only just upgraded to the latest Hawkeye model, so they wont be interest in a Osprey based system anytime soon. The RN are currently introducing the Crowsnest system based on the Merlin Helicopter, so same there.

Actually, the notion of an EV-22 has been raised previously, alongside PV-22 or SV-22, for MPA/ASW ops. The ASW portion has been deemed 'not viable' IIRC due to noise issues. I believe this is due to onboard cabin noise making it difficult for a sonar operator to listen even with headphones.

The EV-22 I would not dismiss just yet though, as they could permit more US vessels to carry an embarked AEW capability as well as vessels belonging to US allies. The E-2 Hawkeye is a great bird, but requires a CATOBAR carrier of a certain size. I am not aware of it being able to takeoff even from large flattop amphibious vessels like the USN's Wasp-class LHD or America-class LHA.

 

[Redlands18]

Actually, the notion of an EV-22 has been raised previously, alongside PV-22 or SV-22, for MPA/ASW ops. The ASW portion has been deemed 'not viable' IIRC due to noise issues. I believe this is due to onboard cabin noise making it difficult for a sonar operator to listen even with headphones.

The EV-22 I would not dismiss just yet though, as they could permit more US vessels to carry an embarked AEW capability as well as vessels belonging to US allies. The E-2 Hawkeye is a great bird, but requires a CATOBAR carrier of a certain size. I am not aware of it being able to takeoff even from large flattop amphibious vessels like the USN's Wasp-class LHD or America-class LHA.

The French operate the Hawkeye of the CDG, so it can be done from a relatively small Carrier, though of course CATOBAR. So the LHA/LHDs can’t operate them. I would be pretty sure that the USN would have looked pretty hard at the EV-22 before going with the Hawkeye D upgrade, to many advantages to at least not look at this option.
One of the things that may not be in the public domain, is how does those huge Propellers interfere with putting Sensor systems on a Tilt Rotor.

 

[John Fedup]

When David Cameron appointed an idiot as Defence secretary & he decided to switch the QEs to cat & trap without bothering to check the cost & timescale, talk was of adding a separate steam generator. There was definitely not enough waste heat.

I don't think anyone is building steam catapults. The Chinese have been reported to be working on EM catapults. Maybe it'd be possible to buy & refurbish steam catapults from a retiring US CVN, but why?

When the consideration to convert from STOVL to CATOBAR was underway, which option, steam or EMALS? Was the IEP capacity sufficient for EMALS or would additional diesels or an additional MT30 have been required? I can imagine as the F-35B progressed and the F-35C was falling behind together with soaring conversion costs, an assessment of electrical requirements for EMALS wasn’t a high priority. EMALS at the time was even more troublesome than the JSF. As you say, an idiot defence secretary didn’t give much consideration to such a conversion.

 

[Toptob]

Yes it would make sense, especially if they were conventionally powered. A Franco - German CBG would be pretty powerful, especially with French SSNs lurking in the neighbourhood and German SSKs nosing around. The French and Germans are getting closer militarily and if Germany increases its defence spending to 2% GDP they would have a very strong military.

Really? The Germans with their overweight patrol ships? I mean F123 are reasonable ships but nothing special and F125 are okay I guess but F125 is just about worthless in a battlegroup. They would need to double their fleet to be able to have assets available for escort duties. And they don't exactly have the numbers of SSK's they'd need either. And the French don't have the numbers to make up for it either, hence the notion of other nations escorting them.

As for the 2%... well maybe in some fantasy land where the Germans aren't the worst defense spenders on the continent. But back in the real world they have the worst track record in this regard. Their military is so chronically underfunded that even the left wing pacifist media puts them on blast for the majority of their air force being inoperable. Most of the Bundeswehr is unable to mobilize and they don't give a rats behind. And there isn't much support for defense among the population. But you're right! If they'd spend 2% of GDP on defense they would have a pretty powerful military.
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My thoughts on the prospective French carrier however are: hmmm interesting! But they'd do well to invest more into replenishing their frontline ships as well. With them having only one carrier it's a bit of a sketchy capability seeing that it isn't available a lot of the time. Is carrier strike something France can count on when at best it's only going to be available 1/3rd of the time?

I mean the enemy is not going to wait for your CBG and air group to be out of maintenance, trained up and combat ready. In fact, an enemy would very likely wait for such an asset to be unavailable to make their move. So is this more than just something to carry the flag and signal long gone imperial ambitions? I understand keeping a carrier when you have one, but this is also the time to ask does France really need an aircraft carrier?

Being a military fan boy I'd say YES! BUY TWO!!! But the reality of the situation is that in the coming decades the MN will have six first line ASW ships and two great AAW ships and two okay AAW ships. Other than that they'll have some second line La Fayettes and later the FTI's. With this situation, which is basically a continuation of the current situation, it's possible to field a CBG some of the time. But going at full blast they would run into difficulties. Would they be able to field a CBG and an amphibious assault group at the same time? And would they have enough assets to cover the other commitments they need to?

I'm not against carriers, I think they are one of the coolest things about naval power. And for a country like France it's a testament to the power and sophistication of their nation. But as much as I admire them I just hope the Marine Nationale doesn't make the same mistakes the Royal Navy has. The Brits kept bashing their heads against the plate in front of them! They had to have their carriers and they gave up everything else to get them. But now they have a fleet that is woefully ill equipped for the tasks that lay before them. T-42 was cut, T-26 was cut and ships where retired to free funds for ships that aren't really fit for purpose in their current and foreseeable ORBAT.

If we now look at the Marine Nationale. The Horizon class was cut, and FREMM was cut to the bones, what's left? I know this supposed carrier is still a long time into the future, but maybe this would be a good time for the MN to have a broader discussion about their disposition in the future. So as to establish a firm goal towards which all their political and economical energy can be directed. To attempt to prevent a repeat of programs that are slashed and slashed until you have an impressive class like the Horizons, but numbers are to low to provide a persistent capability or the economies that a larger class brings.

Finally, can you keep calling France a world power when it's navy is about the size of Australia's?

 

[StobieWan]

When the consideration to convert from STOVL to CATOBAR was underway, which option, steam or EMALS? Was the IEP capacity sufficient for EMALS or would additional diesels or an additional MT30 have been required? I can imagine as the F-35B progressed and the F-35C was falling behind together with soaring conversion costs, an assessment of electrical requirements for EMALS wasn’t a high priority. EMALS at the time was even more troublesome than the JSF. As you say, an idiot defence secretary didn’t give much consideration to such a conversion.

There were a couple of more basic screwups in the assessment for EMALS - we did actually put an order in for the kit if you remember. Power was to be an additional MT30 for which there is room. However, somewhere the assumption had been made that as the Fords were to have four cats, you could halve the price for 2 cats for the QE. Unfortunately it turned out that the costs didn't scale that way and half as many cats needed about 2/3 the amount of equipment. Add to the fact that being an FMS deal it was priced in dollars and VAT was applicable pushed the original estimates way above what was expected.

Add in the fact that to get EMALS installed, you'd have to pull up most of deck 1, just after the paint had dried on it and you can see where the idea fell flat on it's face.

Much of this needn't affect an MN carrier however, not if they were planning for EMALS/AARG from the get-go. It'd be stable tech by the time the French ordered it and it's less man-power intensive than steam, plus the associated benefits of the arrester gear being more easily tuned to different landing weights etc.

 

[swerve]

IIRC it turned out that QE & PoW being "ready for cat & trap" meant "big enough to fit everything in", not that any space had been set aside or reserved for easily moved things, so it wasn't just a question of ripping up deck 1, but shunting a lot of stuff around elsewhere (including moving pipes, cables etc.) to fit in the displaced facilities.

Throw in the failure to ask the Yanks for any information on costs before the decision . . . doh!

 

[StobieWan]

IIRC it turned out that QE & PoW being "ready for cat & trap" meant "big enough to fit everything in", not that any space had been set aside or reserved for easily moved things, so it wasn't just a question of ripping up deck 1, but shunting a lot of stuff around elsewhere (including moving pipes, cables etc.) to fit in the displaced facilities.

Throw in the failure to ask the Yanks for any information on costs before the decision . . . doh!

A friend of mine had a briefing (to the ships company) by one of the design team on this all and yeah, it was a rebuild of that entire desk plus re-routing services etc.

Dimmest decision in what was probably the worst thought out SDR in ..um...history.

Won't go into that as it's OT to the MN thread, whereas the issues converting CVF/PA2 to Cats/Traps aren't, but yeah, galactic stupidity.

 

[John Fedup]

The French sub Perle was damaged by fire. This Rubis class sub was launched in 1990. No radiation or injuries reported. Depending on damage, this sub’s continued service could be over given its age.

French nuclear submarine on fire at Toulon harbour: prefecture

Fire broke out onboard a nuclear submarine docked at the Mediterranean port of Toulon on Friday and was still raging but under control by afternoon, local officials said. Nobody was hurt and no nuclear materials or weapons were on board the vessel, the Perle, which is in dry dock for repairs...

www.google.ca

 

[Ananda]

Firefighters Battled the French SSN 'Perle' Blaze for 14 Hours - Naval News

Firefighters battled the blaze that broke out yesterday aboard a French Navy (Marine Nationale) nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) for a total of 14 hours.

www.navalnews.com

Just add, it take 14 hours to fully control the fire. This's not a good sign on the scope of damage. With Marine Nationale SSN program (thus budget) fully committed to introducing new class of SSN (Barracuda), I do also believe that they will scrap this submarine if the extend of damage really significant.

 

[John Fedup]

Fourteen hours is a significant amount of time so I agree it looks bad for this sub’s future use.

 

[Redlands18]

Firefighters Battled the French SSN 'Perle' Blaze for 14 Hours - Naval News

Firefighters battled the blaze that broke out yesterday aboard a French Navy (Marine Nationale) nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) for a total of 14 hours.

www.navalnews.com

Just add, it take 14 hours to fully control the fire. This's not a good sign on the scope of damage. With Marine Nationale SSN program (thus budget) fully committed to introducing new class of SSN (Barracuda), I do also believe that they will scrap this submarine if the extend of damage really significant.

Unfortunately its the youngest Boat too, 10 years younger then the Rubis. Probably going to throw out the retirement plans for the class.

 

[Ananda]

The media call the Submarine is conducted 'substantial' overhaul and modifications that will bring the boat to be operational for at least a decade. Thus it means Perle being scheduled as the last Subs to be replaced by new SSN class (Barracuda or Suffren class as the seems the media call it now).

French Navy now only have 5 from original 6 Rubis class. One of the Rubis being retired to give resources for operating Suffren as the lead boat of new SSN class.
Whatever the result of damage assessment, Perle will be either scrap or take out from action long time. I'm pretty sure given the situation, the second option will be hard to take by Marine Nationale. It's more economics to speed up New SSN project then wasting resources for doing substantial repairs on Perle.