Malaysian Army/Land forces discussions
- Thread starter weasel1962
- Start date
sorry for the confusion, its a combination of special external paint (painted by the local company , Metrocoats hmmm infact all MAF vehicles were painted using this material), some sort of heat management paint on the engine and pluss the netting. But i dont know the exact type of netting. all i know is it has a degree of thermal and ir reduction characteristic.
It depends on the tactics of the ATGM platoon/team and/or assigned FO tasked to provide security on possible tank approaches. A proficient ATGM team with good tactics (and properly deployed) would not be that easy to spot or kill until after multiple launches from various positions have been effected. We grunts are very motivated to stay alive and will act as per our training.
So I would agree that an automatic IR smokescreen, in certain circumstances, may not be in the best interest of a tank crew. We would have to assume both the ATGM crew (waiting in ambush) and tank crew are equally proficient in their respective skill sets.
I would go manual also and more than likely only start popping smoke and start looking for a defilade position if I could not identify who was trying to take me out.
Reducing the IR signature of vehicles is a concern of most armies. External paint and camo nets are part of the solution. Just as technology will advance on the signature reduction side, the technology for the IR detection side will advance. So I would not over-rate these systems, save to say that proper deployment and field discipline is important in keeping you undetected (this would include not smoking in the open and light discipline). If I see anyone smoking on a deployment without proper precautions, he will be introduced to my boot.
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you are right tactics and dicipline are important.
Anyway here are the picture of MAF heat and IR management paint on Land Rover
Mr Ignorant
New Member
Malaysian Army, in need of reform and modernization. When is this going to happen?? Old soldiers preferring M16A1s over Steyrs, Condor APCs obsolete, not enough 155mm arty, Soviet tanks inducted, Mobility of Infantry sized batalions an issue, border regiments hopelessly inexperienced; experts mulling over technical issues on weaponry, when really they should discuss how these weapons could be best employed. Half strength batalions at 55% -65% filled, discrimination, disgruntled ex army staff, displeasure, etc, etc, etc
In contrast, worryingly the SIngaporeans appear to be the more organized. Reform is very much needed now. RAMD needs to be slimmed in number.
, Mobility of Infantry sized batalions an issue, border regiments hopelessly inexperienced; experts mulling over technical issues on weaponry, when really they should discuss how these weapons could be best employed. Half strength batalions at 55% -65% filled, discrimination, disgruntled ex army staff, displeasure, etc, etc, etcIn contrast, worryingly the SIngaporeans appear to be the more organized. Reform is very much needed now. RAMD needs to be slimmed in number.
Cite facts for the following:
Mobility of infantry size battalions an issue?
Experts mulling over technical issues on weaponry, when really they should discuss how these weapons could be best employed? - Give an example of this
Half strength batalions at 55% -65% filled? - Again where does this figure come from?
discrimination, disgruntled ex army staff, displeasure, etc, etc, etc - explain clearly what you mean by this and how much is it, remember all armies have disgruntled ex-personnel so how much does this actually affect the Malaysian army?
Old soldiers preferring M16A1s over Steyrs - M4 replacing Steyrs so this shouldn't be an issue at all
border regiments hopelessly inexperienced - Again how do you judge this??? You served with them? FYI the border regiments consists of mobilised TAs battalions who were performing the same role for the past few years, the army made them a regular unit to give them the benefits of regular personnel and because most of the mobilised TAs wanted to stay mobilised as they had no ready employment in civilian work but no inclination to move beyond their locality to other units so the Border Regiment allows them to serve as regulars in their own locality
Condor APCs obsolete - Army does want to replace them but no money from govt
not enough 155mm arty - Again money is the issue
Soviet tanks inducted - Think it was DavidDCM (David, correct me if I'm wrong) who said that at the time, the PT-91M represented one of the best choice available to the Malaysian army, and if you think the choice of tank was wrong, cite which tank should the Malaysian army have bought
From the RMAF thread, you seem to be be highly critical of MAF, blaming almost everything on MAF and giving the impression that our military has no clue as to what it is doing without knowing the true facts of what actually is going on within the MAF and that the MAF is aware and working on much of it's weaknesses, however the problem clearly lies with the political side of things and the funding issue not to mention a lack of support from the public, a number of problems with the MAF can clearly be traced to the political leadership. Like all militaries the MAF does have it's problems and made it's share of mistakes but it seems very easy for some to criticise blindly without facts.
Mobility of infantry size battalions an issue?
Experts mulling over technical issues on weaponry, when really they should discuss how these weapons could be best employed? - Give an example of this
Half strength batalions at 55% -65% filled? - Again where does this figure come from?
discrimination, disgruntled ex army staff, displeasure, etc, etc, etc - explain clearly what you mean by this and how much is it, remember all armies have disgruntled ex-personnel so how much does this actually affect the Malaysian army?
Old soldiers preferring M16A1s over Steyrs - M4 replacing Steyrs so this shouldn't be an issue at all
border regiments hopelessly inexperienced - Again how do you judge this??? You served with them? FYI the border regiments consists of mobilised TAs battalions who were performing the same role for the past few years, the army made them a regular unit to give them the benefits of regular personnel and because most of the mobilised TAs wanted to stay mobilised as they had no ready employment in civilian work but no inclination to move beyond their locality to other units so the Border Regiment allows them to serve as regulars in their own locality
Condor APCs obsolete - Army does want to replace them but no money from govt
not enough 155mm arty - Again money is the issue
Soviet tanks inducted - Think it was DavidDCM (David, correct me if I'm wrong) who said that at the time, the PT-91M represented one of the best choice available to the Malaysian army, and if you think the choice of tank was wrong, cite which tank should the Malaysian army have bought
From the RMAF thread, you seem to be be highly critical of MAF, blaming almost everything on MAF and giving the impression that our military has no clue as to what it is doing without knowing the true facts of what actually is going on within the MAF and that the MAF is aware and working on much of it's weaknesses, however the problem clearly lies with the political side of things and the funding issue not to mention a lack of support from the public, a number of problems with the MAF can clearly be traced to the political leadership. Like all militaries the MAF does have it's problems and made it's share of mistakes but it seems very easy for some to criticise blindly without facts.
Malaysian army are under reformation as we speak. This reform are on going.
Steyr are being replaced with M4A1 and M16A2 which is a very good and reliable weapon.
ofcourse the army are looking forward to replace it...maybe you forgoten that we are in the middle of economic turmoil now and this plan were postponed?
Please do check your fact...that said the more the better
The PT-91M were the best medium tank offered and the best suited in malaysian context...or are you implying we bought the heavy Leo or Abrams? if you actually read the heavy debate here in regards of the tank you should know theres a strict weight limitation. please do read the rest of the argument instead of reviving this issue again and make everyone deadlock again in this issue?Soviet tanks inducted
please state what issue?
how is that so? in your expert opnion how does the border regiment HOPELESSLY inexperience?
is this even and issue? the army discuss both point because they want the best for the soldier.
didnt i mention the armed forces were in the process of reform?
please show us example so that we can discuss it.
they are always organise..their reformation started earlier...or did you forget that our armed forces were at war previously? that we were geared towards COIN warfare and only recently that this reformation started?
why RAMD? you just contradict your own point above pall..maybe you should get some rest first.
A few pages back, someone asked about the AC in the PT-91M. Its a Polish Webasco. In my opinion, besides the effectiveness of ERAWA 2, the main question mark is the supply of 125mm ammo. I really doubt if Prentis has the know how to make a decent 125mm KE penetrator.
There was talk earlier in the thread about how the PT-91 has reached the end of its development stage, unlike the Leopard which still has growth potential.
It would interesting to see if theres room in the turret of the PT-91 if the army decides to install a BMS. And is there enough power supply if the army decides on a APS. Whilst data has been released by the maker of ERAWA 2 on its performance against HEAT rounds, little is known about how it performs against current 120mm KE penetrators.
The AUG.... Unless the Malaysian government is prepared to spend thousands of USD per rifle on the M4 [for a decent scope, and other accessories] I don't see the point in replacing the AUG. I read somewhere that 30 Trijicon scopes were bought for trials. We'll just have to see if money will be available to buy a few thousand.
There was talk earlier in the thread about how the PT-91 has reached the end of its development stage, unlike the Leopard which still has growth potential.
It would interesting to see if theres room in the turret of the PT-91 if the army decides to install a BMS. And is there enough power supply if the army decides on a APS. Whilst data has been released by the maker of ERAWA 2 on its performance against HEAT rounds, little is known about how it performs against current 120mm KE penetrators.
The AUG.... Unless the Malaysian government is prepared to spend thousands of USD per rifle on the M4 [for a decent scope, and other accessories] I don't see the point in replacing the AUG. I read somewhere that 30 Trijicon scopes were bought for trials. We'll just have to see if money will be available to buy a few thousand.
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Sturm,
The army chief said in a media conference last week that the PT-91Ms have a BMS of foreign make but declined to go into further details when I asked him, he also said they have enough ammo for training and will be sourcing warshots soon. Actually got a whole bunch of status update of Malaysian Army but can't comment until my interview write-up gets published.
The AUG has to be replaced because local manufacturer SME and Steyr fell out and SME lost all rights so deal was signed with Colt for local manufacture by SME for M4. Progress was a little slow because US congress took their time granting approval:roll
The army chief said in a media conference last week that the PT-91Ms have a BMS of foreign make but declined to go into further details when I asked him, he also said they have enough ammo for training and will be sourcing warshots soon. Actually got a whole bunch of status update of Malaysian Army but can't comment until my interview write-up gets published.
The AUG has to be replaced because local manufacturer SME and Steyr fell out and SME lost all rights so deal was signed with Colt for local manufacture by SME for M4. Progress was a little slow because US congress took their time granting approval:roll
You have plenty of countries that would offer good performing projectiles that are capable of dealing with tank threats in that region so that should not be a issue, as I have stated before about the LEO 2 A4, it is a darn good tank but it is not the battlefield boogey man, with a good performing tank matched up with a proper projectile, crew and unit training it can be killed along with everything else out there that is currently roaming around. We have a saying in the armor community that states the most dangerous tank on the battlefield is the one you do not see regardless what type it is. PT-91M Twardy is a good tank that I surely would not under estmate if having to go up against it.
According to a report, the Malaysian army received M86 HE and M88 KE rounds from Bosnian company Prentis. I'm assuming that Prentis got the technology from the Russia id in the 80s and that the M86 HE and M88 KE are based on Russians rounds from that period. Besides, Russia and Ukraine, do the Chinese and Israelis make decent 125mm ammo? At the DSA 2008 exhibtion, a Chinese company offered the Malaysian army a whole range of 125mm ammo, including a tungsten core KE.
Thank you for the all the feedback received. Much appreciated.
Thank you for the all the feedback received. Much appreciated.
Sturm, as a Malaysian, you should know anything with Israel is verboten in Malaysia , think the Bosnian HE and KE rounds were the training ammo the army chief mentioned as somebody raised the issue of warshots coming from Bosnia during the press conference and he said no, possibly the delay right now is either due to Malaysia shopping for best price or trying to get right to locally produce the ammo
, think the Bosnian HE and KE rounds were the training ammo the army chief mentioned as somebody raised the issue of warshots coming from Bosnia during the press conference and he said no, possibly the delay right now is either due to Malaysia shopping for best price or trying to get right to locally produce the ammoWe had the ammo topic a few pages ago. The M88 KE of Pretis is a copy of the Russian BM-15, which is a 1980's technology tungsten core round. But Pretis has a new developed round called M04. There were pictures of the M04 exhibition in Malaysia in one of those Malaysian defence mags.
i have info on the round from a fellow polish friend...definately new round, at that time theres no name mentioned, this M04 is news for me.
it is said that the sabot round were tested and fired many times in the post-german tunnels and on the field. As i said before it is different from the common sabot round. Supposely increased kinetical energy by 30% but this is just rumours.
ofcourse no detail available other than an additive propellant charge around the sabot. As we know normally the amunition for T-72 consist of 2 separate parts: propellant and projectile (sabot and penetrator).
The propellant burns (or explode he he im no expert) at the moment of opening fire, and the projectile goes out of the barrel, then sabot breaks apart and lonely penetrator flies to the target.
But the amount of propellant is limited due to construction of 2-part amunition. So they add the propelant around projectile.
it is said that the sabot round were tested and fired many times in the post-german tunnels and on the field. As i said before it is different from the common sabot round. Supposely increased kinetical energy by 30% but this is just rumours.
ofcourse no detail available other than an additive propellant charge around the sabot. As we know normally the amunition for T-72 consist of 2 separate parts: propellant and projectile (sabot and penetrator).
The propellant burns (or explode he he im no expert) at the moment of opening fire, and the projectile goes out of the barrel, then sabot breaks apart and lonely penetrator flies to the target.
But the amount of propellant is limited due to construction of 2-part amunition. So they add the propelant around projectile.
So we are using a round developed by this Bosnian firm? and that the M88 is bought but used as practice rounds?
Btw, regarding M16/M4's replacing Styer's, I saw on Wiki that Malaysia is also an operator of the AK 101 rifles. Which service uses them?
Also how does a PT 91 compare to a T 72 BM rogatka or a T 72 upgrade offered by Ukraine ( 1 version even have a separate ammo bustle), considering they all use the same T 72 turret? And considering they are all based on the same chassis, their price should be about the same, are they the best choice for the technological and price range available at the time? Also can the Pt 91 be given the above mentioned changes?
Btw, regarding M16/M4's replacing Styer's, I saw on Wiki that Malaysia is also an operator of the AK 101 rifles. Which service uses them?
Also how does a PT 91 compare to a T 72 BM rogatka or a T 72 upgrade offered by Ukraine ( 1 version even have a separate ammo bustle), considering they all use the same T 72 turret? And considering they are all based on the same chassis, their price should be about the same, are they the best choice for the technological and price range available at the time? Also can the Pt 91 be given the above mentioned changes?
The 5.56mm AK-101 was bought 6-7 years ago for PASKAL. According to what I've heard, they weren't to happy with the sights on it. Pics have appeared of the AK-101 in either Tempur or Perajurit, during an anti-piracy exercise conducted with MISC. In the early 90's, I found out from the assistant defence attache at the Russian embasy that a small batch of underwater dart guns were also sold.
A few years ago, there was a P90 and an AT4 at the Gerak Khas stand. Perhaps a small batch were bought for evaluation. Sometime back,there was also news that the army was considering the SS-77 to supplement the
MAG-58s, but a photo was released recently showing the SS-77 in RMN service. A lot of times, small purchases for small arms and follow on orders for existing stuff is not reported. Im curious though as to what units have received the POF RPG. According to a newspaper report in 2003, 25,700 RPG rounds were brought. Also, does anyone know if the Bahktar Shikan mounted on the Adnan, is the 1st version or the tandem warhead version?
A few years ago, there was a P90 and an AT4 at the Gerak Khas stand. Perhaps a small batch were bought for evaluation. Sometime back,there was also news that the army was considering the SS-77 to supplement the
MAG-58s, but a photo was released recently showing the SS-77 in RMN service. A lot of times, small purchases for small arms and follow on orders for existing stuff is not reported. Im curious though as to what units have received the POF RPG. According to a newspaper report in 2003, 25,700 RPG rounds were brought. Also, does anyone know if the Bahktar Shikan mounted on the Adnan, is the 1st version or the tandem warhead version?
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What's wrong with the sights on an AK-101? They're not that bad are they? Or are they referring to the PSO-1 and Kobra sights?