Littoral Combat Ship

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The last report I read said the LPD-17's do NOT have ESSM fitted. They do have the blanked off space but not the VLS?
You are correct, the current LPD do not have VLS fitted, but they could.

I guess I see a different mix of capabilties for a mothership than most. A small boat repair shop would be key, it would be a critical enabler in working with local coast guards and keeping its patrol craft operational. I also think cargo space and vehicle space are important, thus a LPD instead of a hanger intensive aviation platform, as both cargo and vehicle space lends to sustained land operations, another key requirement in the Global Fleet Station. C4ISR in support of MDA would be a critical enabler at sea.

Todjaeger the LPD-17 with the 50ft plug could support 2 M-80s and 4 CB-90s for MSO which would allow that small force, without assistance from the mothership, to cover large numbers of searches per day, particularly when enabled under the MDA model. The advantage of the M-80 in support of CB-90s is it reduces the requirement for aviation support in operation, so as to avoid the situation we saw in the Northern Persian Gulf with the Royal Navy and Iran. The CB-90 can fight, but the M-80 can not only be armed up beyond the CB-90, but also supports UAVs to overwatch security.

Aviation platforms are expensive, the Global Fleet Station concept and motherships in general will require presence for effectiveness, specifically for sustainment. That means the platform needs to be designed for low cost operations with a logistical approach, not a heavy aviation approach which only raises the cost of operations, and requires a larger logistical footprint to support.

My thoughts anyway.
 
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B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I guess I see a different mix of capabilties for a mothership than most. A small boat repair shop would be key, it would be a critical enabler in working with local coast guards and keeping its patrol craft operational. I also think cargo space and vehicle space are important, thus a LPD instead of a hanger intensive aviation platform, as both cargo and vehicle space lends to sustained land operations, another key requirement in the Global Fleet Station. C4ISR in support of MDA would be a critical enabler at sea.

Todjaeger the LPD-17 with the 50ft plug could support 2 M-80s and 4 CB-90s for MSO which would allow that small force, without assistance from the mothership, to cover large numbers of searches per day, particularly when enabled under the MDA model. The advantage of the M-80 in support of CB-90s is it reduces the requirement for aviation support in operation, so as to avoid the situation we saw in the Northern Persian Gulf with the Royal Navy and Iran. The CB-90 can fight, but the M-80 can not only be armed up beyond the CB-90, but also supports UAVs to overwatch security.

Aviation platforms are expensive, the Global Fleet Station concept and motherships in general will require presence for effectiveness, specifically for sustainment. That means the platform needs to be designed for low cost operations with a logistical approach, not a heavy aviation approach which only raises the cost of operations, and requires a larger logistical footprint to support.

My thoughts anyway.
I believe part of the problem here is the wide range of littoral missions, situations and threats everyone has in mind when discussing this topic.

They range from disaster relief, to long-term national outreach and support operations (GFS), to maritime security/anti-piracy/GWOT, to countering Anti-Access/Access Denial threats in a conflict.

I, personally, don't think a one-size-fits-all solution is the right way to go to cover all of these situations.

Each type of mission requires a different blend of endurance, payload, speed, survivability, numbers, shallow draft, austere port access, etc..

I still think moving to a modular approach is a good idea, but I think we need to be looking at a range of sizes and types of platforms that can accept these modules, not just the one-size-fits-all LCS.


On the question of buying LPD-17s for GFS, is the well deck really worth paying 10 times the price over a converted RORO?

Certainly the LPD-17 can be used across the spectrum of littoral threats, where a RORO would be confined to the low end. And a RORO would need expensive modules for things that come for free on the LPD-17.

But 10 large, cheap motherships seems to give you a heckuva lot more options than 1 LPD when the threat is low (which is the vast majority of the time).
 
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B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Another thing to consider here is that a commercial vessel will attract far less attention and foster less ill will and unease with host nations than a warship.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Another thing to consider here is that a commercial vessel will attract far less attention and foster less ill will and unease with host nations than a warship.

Can you define "Commercial vessel" ? :unknown


After all the LSD(A) program that the UK has just completed the delivery side of, is in effect a "Commercial Contract", with the equipment built to Lloyd's rules, as per most commercial liners & modern RO-RO's.


Are you saying that these vessels should not be painted battleship grey ??


Then again, to further discussions, how about looking at both the UK LSD(A) & LPD designs, & integrating them into one hull form / style. I appreciate that they're not the Mother/Daughter ship concept you were thinking of, but LCU's are still a good way of conducting actions in littoral waters.


In addition, both have well docks, both are capable of carrying various stores / equipment types & Embarked Forces & both have Helo Support facilities.


The added bonus is that they are "bespoke designs", modified to the fit a broad-brush approach of being all things to all men, in one vessel. Also, by using this approach, rather than the commercial RO-RO's, they have particular equipment/facilities built in, rather than say having to try & find space on the bridge roof, to accommodate a Nissan hut full of comms equipment, or giving up precious deck space to bolt on some AA/self defence weaponry.


Finally, by using this approach, the cost issue means that you can throw one together for approx. $ 150M, for a Bay class LSD(A), or $ 500M for an Albion class LPD (figures extrapolated from those quoted in the link below(for LPD) & from recalled from memory, from the numerous press articles over how the final costs worked out from the LSD(A)'s "constructed by Swan Hunter").



Certainly still worth a look.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/bay_class/

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lpd/


Systems Adict
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Can you define "Commercial vessel" ? :unknown


After all the LSD(A) program that the UK has just completed the delivery side of, is in effect a "Commercial Contract", with the equipment built to Lloyd's rules, as per most commercial liners & modern RO-RO's.


Are you saying that these vessels should not be painted battleship grey ??
I'm saying buy and convert an existing RORO or container ship type.

I'm not saying use an amphibious transport or warship built to commercial standards.

Heck we could probably even lease or buy used ROROs of various types instead of buying new. Paint them all differently and the pirates/terrorists will have a hard time sorting out military vessel from target.


Then again, to further discussions, how about looking at both the UK LSD(A) & LPD designs, & integrating them into one hull form / style. I appreciate that they're not the Mother/Daughter ship concept you were thinking of, but LCU's are still a good way of conducting actions in littoral waters.


In addition, both have well docks, both are capable of carrying various stores / equipment types & Embarked Forces & both have Helo Support facilities.
LCUs are certainly useful for some littoral missions, but they won't be running down go-fasts, fighting off Boghammers or intercepting pirates.

The added bonus is that they are "bespoke designs", modified to the fit a broad-brush approach of being all things to all men, in one vessel. Also, by using this approach, rather than the commercial RO-RO's, they have particular equipment/facilities built in, rather than say having to try & find space on the bridge roof, to accommodate a Nissan hut full of comms equipment, or giving up precious deck space to bolt on some AA/self defence weaponry.

Finally, by using this approach, the cost issue means that you can throw one together for approx. $ 150M, for a Bay class LSD(A), or $ 500M for an Albion class LPD (figures extrapolated from those quoted in the link below(for LPD) & from recalled from memory, from the numerous press articles over how the final costs worked out from the LSD(A)'s "constructed by Swan Hunter").
I agree that if you can have a purpose-built vessel for near the price of a converted RORO, then it probably makes sense to go that route.

My problem was with buying additional LPD-17s for simple, mundane, long-term GFS/GWOT tasks at $1.2 billion a pop. For this, we'd be better served with many big hulls rather than one better hull, IMHO.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Systems Adict: or you could have a smaller or larger ship of the same type. The Schelde Enforcer design, on which the Bay class LSDs are based, is offered in versions from about 8000 tons up, though AFAIK all those built are between 12000 & 18000 tons (Galicia/Castilla/Rotterdam/Bay-class/Johann de Witt).

No reason why they can't carry fast boats as well as LCUs, & they can carry helicopters.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I knew about the Bays being based on the Schelde design, it seems to work well. :grab

I'd also heard from a bloke who worked on the design back in the late 90's, that before the down select when they were still on the drawing board as ALSL's they had an additional deck, which would have brought them up closer to 22 - 25K tonne. :p:

At one point it was also rumored that the 4th boat was going to be converted into a permanent Hospital ship, or possibly as a "cousin" to HMS Ocean, thankfully they binned all those ideas & gave the RN / RFA 4 ships that are effectively replacing 6 older vessels !

Although I think they're great ships, I'm not sure about the way the accommodation block was just "dumped" on the main structure. After all that vertical surface is about the size of half a football field, & must cost some speed when running into the wind for flying ops. In hindsight, it might have been better to reduce the height & spread the accommodation about on the additional deck. Adding a Hanger might have been another option, but it would start to limit available flight deck space, limiting the size of helo / rotor-craft that could be used on deck.


But I'm miles off topic here, so let's leave it there. :eek:fftopic

Systems Adict
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
...Getting back ON TOPIC, I found the link below by accident while looking thru a list of links on a page listed within another link on another page within these forums !

I thought if it hasn't been posted, that it might be an interesting read for those who want to know about the findings of the report into the "LCS Program : Oversight Issues & options for congress"



http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL33741.pdf

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alexsa

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's quite big, relatively slow & unmanoeuvrable. Big target. Cheap, & can carry a lot, but using & protecting all that volume could be expensive. Perhaps something a little like the Absalon, with more space for boats & helicopters? But I'm not at all sure. This is an area where I have more doubts than suggestions.
I know its off the LCS topic but .... a modern RO-RO based on either a pure car carrier or fast truck carrier (similar to the Point class) have a very low block coefficient and can have a reasonable sustained operating speed. 19.5knots sustained is very reasoanble on a fairly moderate installed power. Speed can be increased with more power.

These ships (depending on hull design) can be as manourverable as a AOR if not better.

In effect they are not present any greater risk than and AOR in such situations depending on how they are equipped. They arer all are a support vessel.

The biggest issue that has not be touched upon is the fact they burn HFO and running them on MDO is not really efficinet (or good for the engine for prolonged operation in some case).

Warships do not burn HFO and AOR's do not generally carry it as cargo (noting Sirius burns HFO as well). The offset is these ship genrally have a very long unrefuelled range.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
I, personally, don't think a one-size-fits-all solution is the right way to go to cover all of these situations.

Each type of mission requires a different blend of endurance, payload, speed, survivability, numbers, shallow draft, austere port access, etc..
I completely disagree.

All ships have similar characteristics to an extent. The compromises are no where near as important as say an aircraft. E.g a B-2 performing the role of an F/A-18. The performance and load characteristics dont vary as much compared to aircraft.

Endurance and payload the more the better in my opinion.

Speed is not so important if it cant maintain it over distance. Just look at the massive US aircraft carriers they can travel as fast as the smaller frigates.

Shallow draft and port access is not very important when it comes to all out war. Only a select few missions require shallow draft for landings.

A larger ship has a higher cost due to its size. It requires more fuel to run and more materials to build. However all these costs are insignificant compared to the cost of the wages of the crew. Space is cheap.

Having a 20,000 tone cruiser to perform the role of a frigate could be done easily. If the systems were the same the crew would be the same regardless of the ships size. Endurance, payload and speed may well be in favour of the Cruiser. Draught and port access is not important for most missions. At the end of the lifetime of the ship the total cost would have not been that much larger for the larger ships if the crew size was the same.

With the use of helicopters and patrol boats the number of large ships can be quite small.

A fast 20,000 tone ship equiped with a pair of 200 tone armed high speed patrol boats and a handful of helicopters to protect her would be an extremely powerful ship. It could self escort itself fairly easily. Basically a fast LHD. Put twice as much propulsion into the Navantia LHD and it will probably be able to sustain 25 knots which would be very impressive.

Equiped with a powerful radar/missile system it could provide air and sea defence.

The Navantia LHD's with 4 F-35B's could do a better job at air defence than without F-35's but with an AEGIS destroyer escorting it.

The Navantia LHD with helicopters equiped with anti ship missiles can perform the anti ship role better than with an AEGIS destoyer protecting it.

The main role of the Air Warfare destroyer is to provide a protective shield to the vulnerable LHD's and landing forces far away from Australia. Put a few F-35B's on the LHD's and the Air Warfare destroyers are not required. A ship performing air warefare will never be as good as a pair of stealth supersonic fighter jets. Same applies to anti-ship and strike missions.
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I completely disagree.

All ships have similar characteristics to an extend. The compromises are no where near as important as say an aircraft. E.g a B-2 performing the role of an F/A-18. The performance and load characteristics dont vary as much compared to aircraft.

Endurance and payload the more the better in my opinion.

Speed is not so important if it cant maintain it over distance. Just look at the massive US aircraft carriers they can travel as fast as the smaller frigates.

Shallow draft and port access is not very important when it comes to all out war. Select few missions require shallow draft for landings.

A larger ship has a higher operating cost due to its size. It requires more fuel to run and more materials to build. However all these costs are insignificant compared to the cost of the wages of the crew. Space is cheap.

Having a 20,000 tone cruiser to perform the role of a frigate could be done easily. If the systems were the same the crew would be the same regardless of the ships size. Endurance, payload and speed may well be in favour of the Cruiser. Draught and port access is not important for most missions. At the end of the lifetime of the ship the total cost would have not been that much larger for the larger ships if the crew size was the same.

With the use of helicopters and patrol boats the number of large ships can be quite small.

A fast 20,000 tone ship equiped with a pair of 200 tone armed high speed patrol boats and a handful of helicopters to protect her would be an extremely powerful ship. It could self escort itself fairly easily. Basically a fast LHD. Put twice as much propulsion into the Navantia LHD and it will probably be able to sustain 25 knots which would be very impressive.

Equiped with a powerful radar/missile system it could provide air and sea defence.

You may completely disagree with some of us rjmaz but I think that every navy in the world for the last two centuries (or more) would disagree with you.

Why would you build a 20,000 ton ship to do the job that can be done by a 2000 ton or a 1000 ton ship? How exactly are you going to put twice as much propulsion into a Navanta LHD without a complete redesign? How can you say that shallow draft and port access are not important in all out war? What evidence do you have for this? Centuries of naval history suggests otherwise! :rolleyes:

Tas
 
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rjmaz1

New Member
You may completely disagree with some of us rjmaz but I think that every navy in the world for the last two centuries (or more) would disagree with you.
The history of Navy is irrelevent. 100 years ago the only weapons was a cannon. Now they use helicopters and missiles, realistically we can only use the last 20 years when it comes to creating future doctrine.

The Gulf War and Falkens conflict probably have the biggest impact on future war planning. We are seeing a growing trend

Why would you build a 20,000 ton ship to do the job that can be done by a 2000 ton or a 1000 ton ship?
If you only need a 1000 ton ship then you dont need helicopters, ship to ship missiles, AEGIS, F-35B's or amphib landing capabilities. You can send the coast guard or a patrol boat instead.

You dont really need need 1000 ton ships. You are either at war or at peace. If your at war you'd need the 20,000 tone ship, helo's and F-35B's to kill the enemy. If you are at peace you need nothing other than basic patrol boats.

This is why a Navy should consist of a high-low mix. Or a High mix only with the low being provided by a coast guard like company.

During war time you are usually only at war in the one area so having fewer high end ships wont be a problem as long as all of them are in the battle zone.

Remeber its the crew that costs money. You can have all the equipment on the ship it doesn't mean the crew have to man all the fancy features.


How exactly are you going to put twice as much propulsion into a Navanta LHD without a complete redesign? How can you say that shallow draft and port access are not important in all out war? What evidence do you have for this? Centuries of naval history suggests otherwise!
A Navanta with twice the propulsion is only an example. It would have to be a complete new design as it would also have to carry two 300 tone patrol boats. I was giving that as example.

Shallow draft and port access was not a problem in the Guld War or the Falkens. Large 20,000+ ton ships didn't have any problems.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
The main role of the Air Warfare destroyer is to provide a protective shield to the vulnerable LHD's and landing forces far away from Australia. Put a few F-35B's on the LHD's and the Air Warfare destroyers are not required. ....
Which is, of course, why the US Navy has dispensed with surface to air missiles & entrusts the air defence of its fleet entirely to the fighters carried on its carriers & LHAs. I remember well the scrapping of the USNs AAW ships. Come to think of it, is there a single navy with carriers which hasn't decided AAW ships are pointless? :nutkick

The Navantia LHD's with 4 F-35B's could do a better job at air defence than without F-35's but with an AEGIS destroyer escorting it.

The Navantia LHD with helicopters equiped with anti ship missiles can perform the anti ship role better than with an AEGIS destoyer protecting it.
I assume you'll buy more LHDs to do the amphibious assault job your LHDs aren't doing because they're doing all this other stuff.
 
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hvidtfeldt

New Member
Nice and recent shots, but not from the navalhistory guy. But much better than what I could find...



Ah. Those where the ones I thought you was thinking of.



Here is a pic with Mk 56.


But I doubt they had the wiring at the time.

Hi Grand Danois and Kato

I am the guy with the Absalon photos.
I was on board the Absalon yesterday but was not allowed to take any pictures on-board (a general photo ban).
However I can assure you both that the descoy launchers are fitted now.
I saw two (six tube ?) launchers fitted at the funnels -
invisible from outside the ship.

Also ESSM is operational in MK 56 modules ind the danish navy.

Please take a look at my photobucket account (sub album DANEX07)

smg.photobucket.com/albums/v252/hvidtfeldt/Danex07/

(I am not allowed to post URL's because I havent posted at least 15 posts)
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The history of Navy is irrelevent. 100 years ago the only weapons was a cannon. Now they use helicopters and missiles, realistically we can only use the last 20 years when it comes to creating future doctrine.
Both the Falklands and Gulf Wars demonstrated that numbers of hulls are important. If the RN had had all of their assets packed into only a handful of 20,000 ton ships they would not have been able to carry out the multitude of duties required of the surface fleet during the Falklands campaign. Also the loss of any one ship would have been catastrophic. As it was the British had to commit 54 merchant ships and 21 fleet auxilaries to support the 51 warships involved. Those support ships needed escorts and many of the warships were tied up with this role. Other warships were needed to fullfill British naval commitments elsewhere. A coastguard type would not have been able to provide this and no small patrol boat would have been able to operate in the South Atlantic. Numbers of warships were important.

The world's leading navies all seem to consider that defence in depth is important. Why do you think that the USN provides such a strong screen for its carriers rather than putting AEGIS and long range missile systems on their carriers and sailing them with no escort? Helos by themselves can't provide the ASW screen needed by a carrier or an amphibious ship. Destroyers, frigates and submarines are still needed.


If you only need a 1000 ton ship then you dont need helicopters, ship to ship missiles, AEGIS, F-35B's or amphib landing capabilities. You can send the coast guard or a patrol boat instead.
There are clearly some tasks that can be handled better by a corvette, a frigate or a destroyer than by a patrol boat, but which do not require a 20,000 ton ship! A small number of large ships can just not be in all the places required during a major conflict at sea.

You dont really need need 1000 ton ships. You are either at war or at peace. If your at war you'd need the 20,000 tone ship, helo's and F-35B's to kill the enemy. If you are at peace you need nothing other than basic patrol boats.
It would be an incredible waste of resources to send 20,000 ton ships to do the task currently being performed adequately by frigates and destroyers on station in the Gulf. Having a larger ship to support a number of frigates and/or destroyers, on the other hand, is highly desirable.

This is why a Navy should consist of a high-low mix. Or a High mix only with the low being provided by a coast guard like company.

During war time you are usually only at war in the one area so having fewer high end ships wont be a problem as long as all of them are in the battle zone.
I agree that a navy needs a high/low mix. Your assumption that a navy only needs to plan for involvement in one war zone at a time is a dangerous gamble IMHO.

Remeber its the crew that costs money. You can have all the equipment on the ship it doesn't mean the crew have to man all the fancy features.
I consider it a waste to spend billions on something like AEGIS and then not to man it because your 20,000 ton ship has to operate in an area not requiring it when a smaller ship could do the job.


Shallow draft and port access was not a problem in the Guld War or the Falkens. Large 20,000+ ton ships didn't have any problems.
There were certainly situations in the Second Gulf War where large ships could not have performed the tasks carried out by destroyers and frigates. ‘Five Inch Friday’ for example.

In the Falklands War the carriers were kept as far away from Argentinean airbases as possible. Destroyers and frigates had to expose themselves to danger in providing close support to the landing ships whilst the carriers stood well out to sea to conduct air operations. A few large ships having to combine the roles of carrier, amphibious ship, air defence ship and ASW vessel, would not have been able to carry out all the roles needed. Numbers were important. In the Fitzroy landing the RN was unwilling to expose the valuable assault ships Fearless and Intrepid to the risk of operating in the exposed area because the loss of a large sophisticated ship would have had catastrophic consequences to the operation, both politically and operationally. Consequently they sent in, with inadequate escort, the cheaper, more expendable and inadequately armed LSLs, two of which were severely damaged and one of which was sunk. If there had only been a few expensive, sophisticated ships available the landing could not have been attempted. This was a demonstration that there are times when numbers of 'expendable' ships are required. The inability to provide adequate protection for the LSLs resulted from 'penny pinching' in the failure to properly arm them and the lack of escorts and aircraft to support them. More ships were needed, not fewer.

Throughout your post you have made sweeping claims that are contrary to practically everything I have read about operations in The Falklands and Gulf Wars. You have made a series of assertations that fly in the face of what naval planners throughout the world believe. This would be fair enough if you supplied evidence to back up your claims. If you are going to make such comments I believe that you have an obligation to provide such evidence to back up what you say.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Consequently they sent in, with inadequate escort, the cheaper, more expendable and inadequately armed LSLs, two of which were severely damaged and one of which was sunk.
This is an example of playing it safe.

War is an evaluation of risk.

If they sent in a pair of highly armed LHD's with a pair of Harriers each im sure neither of the ships would have been damaged let alone sunk!

Thats pretty good evidence right there.

By putting the carrier in a safe position it increased its survivability but as a result it decreased the survivability of the small ships and landing craft. If they had of slightly increased the risk of attack to the carrier it would have drastically reduced the risk of the landing craft.

For example if the brits wanted to be very offensive they could have parked the carrier INBETWEEN the Falkens and Argentina. This would have given excellent protection to all of the other ships. The Harriers could have then attacked the Argentina coast line which would have changed the ball game completely as Argentina would then have to defend against the harriers. The war could have ended in half the time with no casualties.

Of course with only one carrier if the risk got too high and it was sunk it would have been the end to the war. They went the safe option and won the war the harder but safer way.

If Australia had four LHD's all highly capable with excellent long range air and sea defences then they can be extremely aggressive/offensive with these ships.

Of course i wouldn't eliminate the smaller ships, but i believe we should increase the number of high end ships and reduce the number of low end basic ships.

The Anzacs ships as they are would make a great low end ship in a high-low mix. I wouldn't upgrade any of the systems on the boat as they are more than good enough. Spend all the money on high end ships and arming them to the teeth.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
This is an example of playing it safe.

War is an evaluation of risk.

If they sent in a pair of highly armed LHD's with a pair of Harriers each im sure neither of the ships would have been damaged let alone sunk!

Thats pretty good evidence right there. ....
If they'd "sent in a pair of highly armed LHD's with a pair of Harriers each" the Argentinean air force would have suddenly seen the biggest, juiciest targets imaginable, & would have done all in their power to sink them. They'd have faced a far more intense attack, & the Harriers would probably have been swamped. The fear of such an attack was what kept the carriers out of sight & reach of the Argentinean air attacks.

There were Harriers operating over those LSLs, and they were unable to stop the attacks. They had the disadvantage of operating from further away, but the advantages of greater numbers than "a pair ... each", & secure bases on which to re-arm & refuel. Your hypothetical "pair ... each" would have run a very big risk of being caught on deck.

For example if the brits wanted to be very offensive they could have parked the carrier INBETWEEN the Falkens and Argentina. This would have given excellent protection to all of the other ships. The Harriers could have then attacked the Argentina coast line which would have changed the ball game completely as Argentina would then have to defend against the harriers. The war could have ended in half the time with no casualties. ....
This would have lost the Harriers biggest advantage, i.e. the parlous fuel state of the Argentinean aircraft they were fighting.

Over the Falklands, the Mirages could not engage in air-air combat, because they were operating at the absolute limit of their range. Several Argentinean aircraft were lost to fuel starvation, & the numbers of aircraft which could attack at once was constrained by the severely limited tanker resources. According to rumour, they damn near lost a tanker to fuel starvation, hanging around to nurse back a fighter on the verge of ditching. Closer to the coast, they could have deployed their entire strike force at once, with plentiful fighter cover.

The Harriers would have gone down fighting, but gone down they would, because while they were fighting for their lives, outnumbered by Mirages & Daggers with the fuel to use their superior speed & altitude, & hang around to fight, Skyhawks & Super Etendards would have been coming at their carrier from all sides (at that distance from the coast, the RN would no longer have had the luxury of knowing which direction the attackers were coming from), & I wouldn't have given it much chance.
 
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metro

New Member
I haven't seen this posted here but I just saw that Israel's Navy placed an initial order of 2 LCSs, among other toys. Can these operate independently of anything else and how far from port can the operate? I'm not a navy person by any means, but I am interested. Do any of you have an opinion whether this is a wise acquisition for Israel in particular? How would the LCSs most likely be used, and/or is there a specific threat that they'd counter for Israel? I'd appreciate any info/opinions, further than what's in this article thanks!


BTW, there is a really good 1 hour t.v. program for those in the US at least, that is on the Military Channel and covers all of the concepts and integration of the "new/future" navel fleets/strike groups. It's on Comcast Cable: New Technology of War: 'Sea Power' 2007 . If nothing else, it's an awesome sales pitch, total sea superiority (as opposed to air superiority). It discuses/shows everything I've seen discussed in this thread. I highly recommend it, I'm not sure if it's on youtube or if it can be streamed.

Link:http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188392524293&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Snippet:
The navy will receive two new Littoral Combat Ships (LCS) developed by Lockhead Martin, at a cost of some 250 million dollars a piece. The ship currently under development is planned to be the most advanced missile ship in the world for close-to-coast military operations.

The ship was built according to US naval specifications and as a Brown water Ship meant to operate in shallow waters and along coast to combat the combined treat from land and sea.

According to defense sources, the Littoral Combat Ship will enhance Israel's long-armed capabilities and could potentially be used in a conflict with Iran. The ship is capable of carrying special forces, infantry units, midsized vehicles, as well as two helicopters.

The navy plans to install a Barak anti-missile defense system on the ship to intercept incoming anti-ship missiles.

Much Thanks:)
 
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harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Israel has a short-range navy which engages in littoral operations. Sounds right for LCS.
only one thing the `Saar 5' has more wepones than the LCS it has

Missiles
Surface-to-surface 8 harpoon and 8 Gabriel
Surface-to-air 2 vertical launch barak launchers
Gun 1 oto melara 76mm gun or mk 15 phalanx ciws
Torpedoes 6 x 32 cell mk 32 launchers for mk 46 torpedoes
Systems
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/saar5/specs.html

compared with the Rather basic weponery[RAM,57mm cannon decoys] of the LCS without the modules
israle is the perfect lanch customer

which LCS will Israle buy Lockmart of GD/Austal ship
 
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