KC-X goes to Northrop/EADS

Magoo

Defense Professional
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  • #21
Boeing bid the 767 for several reasons, the main one being the production line was already in place and the KC-767 proposal used bits from other 767 models already in production - it was considered a low risk proposition. The company didn't have the capacity to develop a KC-787 in parallel with the airliner version, and the 777 was deemed as being too large.

BTW - The 767 is not "long out of production" - there are about 30-odd airframes, mostly freighters on back order and production will likely wrap up in around 2010/11.

The KC-30 has made ground since the previous KC-X competition was abandoned nearly five years ago. EADS has almost finished work on the boom, and the aircraft has proven itself aerodynamically, so there isn't much risk to be retired on that aircraft. By comparison, the KC-767 has not flown in the -200LRF form being proposed (-200 fuselage, -300 wings and engines, -400 cockpit, landing gear and trailing edge), plus Boeing has had certification issues with the Japanese and Italian KC-767 programs resulting in two year delays to those programs.

At the end, the KC-30 beat the KC-767 in four of the five main criteria, and they drew in the fifth. As the USAF's head of AMC, Gen Arthur Lichte, said at the announcement, “It offered us greater flexibility, more passengers, more cargo, more fuel to offload, more availability, more dependability, and can carry more patients in the aero-medical evacuation role.”

It'll be interesting to see whether Australia's DMO wrote a good enough contract that Australia will be eligible for royalties for being lead customer on the aircraft! :D

Cheers

Magoo
 
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Magoo

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That's the strange part. The B777 is as heavy compared to the A-330 (148t to 120t empty weights) as the A-330 is compared to the B767 (90t).

If the airforce was looking for the best or bigger plane, the B777 should have been it. Note how the justification for the A-330 is all based on size. More fuel, more load.

The key selling point of the B777 has always been its fuel efficiency and consequently lower cost of operations. The B777 is bigger, carries more fuel, carries more patients, etc.

Yet, now we have a strange situation where the justification for purchasing the airbus is based on the larger specs rather than the price but excludes what theoretically would have been the best plane of the lot based on the requirements.
But Boeing didn't offer the 777, so the air force couldn't select it! Boeing is busy developing the 777F version upon which any KC-777 offering would most likely have been based, but as Grand Denois suggests, they wouldn't have had the capacity to bring both models to market within the air force's time frame. Basically, for Boeing it was either 767, or sit this one out, hence their 'home grown' rather than capability based campaign.

There are other reasons one plane is better for a particular job than another - an efficient passenger plane doesn't necessarily translate into an efficient freighter, hence Boeing's development of an all new 777F variant rather than just remove the seats from the existing 777-200ER and adding a cargo door. The 767 had already been developed into a freighter, both the new build -300ERF and after market -200/-300BCF routes, so much of that development work was already 'in the can', so to speak.

With the A330, I suspect much of the structural work involved in making it into a tanker/transport had already been done on the A300/A310 programs as that aircraft uses a similar fuselage cross section and construction methods. The A330 also leveraged off the A340 program - as these aircraft have essentially the same wing, the plumbing for the wingtip refuelling pods which are mounted where the A340's outboard engines would be is already in place and certified.

Magoo
 

Capt. Picard

New Member
Note how the justification for the A-330 is all based on size. More fuel, more load.

The key selling point of the B777 has always been its fuel efficiency and consequently lower cost of operations. The B777 is bigger, carries more fuel, carries more patients, etc.

Yet, now we have a strange situation where the justification for purchasing the airbus is based on the larger specs rather than the price but excludes what theoretically would have been the best plane of the lot based on the requirements.
It's all about payload really. As someone who has flown both of these aircraft (777, A330) in civilian form, I will be interested to see what Airbus do to keep the reliability and durability up to scratch. In my company the 777 is far superior in these two areas, however the 330's payload in most version is much better.
 

Magoo

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Well, that's too bad for Boeing then...

Unfortunately, is it really true that the KC-777 wasn't available or that they didn't have the capacity?
When I said "capacity", I meant the manufacturer wouldn't have had the engineering capacity to develop the tanker version of the 777 in time for the USAF bid as it was also developing the 787, the 777F and the 747-8.

There's no doubt a KC-777 would have trumped the KC-30 in offload capacity, range and a host of other stats, but would Boeing have been able to meet the required IOC date? I doubt it.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Don't the airforce have to replace the KC-10's sometime in the next decade, the KC-777 would make a fine replacement.
 

f-22fan12

New Member
OK then so why do Democrats spend less on the military? That makes no sense at all.
I'm not saying either party is right or wrong. But if you look at the Clinton and Carter administrations, the military spending during those times was much lower than what it would have been under a Republican president. Clinton cut the military by tens of thousands of soldiers in all branches. I know Roosevelt and LBJ were big military spenders. In that era, Democratic presidents did spend alot on defense. Although one has to aruge that even a Republican president would spend the same amount of money FDR did on World War II. The fact is that recent Democratic presidents have spent less than Republicans would have. Again, I'm not taking sides.
Enough with all that. My first comment was just poking a little fun. I didn't mean to start a discussion.
Thanks :)
 

JohanGrön

New Member
US Air Force new tankers

Anyone who have heard the latest news on the US Air Force new tankers?

From what I gathered Boing was kicked out and Airbus won the contract! Anyone with information on the competing tankers (C-30A/B MRTT Airbus A330-200 and KC-767A Boeing 767-200 I guess?) and why Airbus was choosen?

I wonder what Ollie North has to say about them frenchies? :rolleyes:

[Mod edit]
Already a thread here - http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7457

So I'm merging this one with it.

PJI
[/mod edit]


thx swerve, missed it! All info was here now i'm up2date.
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
In the last few Presidential elections Washington state has gone to the Democrats anyway, usually the party in power will choose the winning state by how it voted in the past. While Boeing tried to use its monopoly power in the states, it lost by charging too much with a lease plan at first. As a taxpayer, I prefer the price of $35 billion for 179 aircraft better than $40 billion for 100 aircraft. No wonder Senator McCain thought the Boeing deal stunk. It did.
 

metro

New Member
In the last few Presidential elections Washington state has gone to the Democrats anyway, usually the party in power will choose the winning state by how it voted in the past. While Boeing tried to use its monopoly power in the states, it lost by charging too much with a lease plan at first. As a taxpayer, I prefer the price of $35 billion for 179 aircraft better than $40 billion for 100 aircraft. No wonder Senator McCain thought the Boeing deal stunk. It did.
Perhaps, competition is not something that many of those in congress are that big proponent's of. It's strange how they'll go to no end (or the lowest end) to keep their jobs (Job Security vs. National Security:shudder ). Maybe they just like the Social Groups and nature of things on the Hill:rolleyes:
What's good to know, is that after all the problems, delays, etc; we get to wait another 100 days for a decision on something that's critical to our AF. At least nobody can say we're trying to be dangerously efficient or putting costs ahead of benefits--that point past long ago. This is one time I think reality TV might be a good thing. Give each side an hour to present their case to Donald Trump "In the Boardroom," and see how long it takes before BA gets axed :lam . Shi(p), let Judge Judy try the case on its merits, she'll have BA out of her courtroom in 15 minutes (5 minutes for telling BA off) for more difficult cases, like, "Should Jane's ex-boyfriend pay for a broken vacuum cleaner".

Maybe, with the extra time (100 days) Boeing can build something more than a low-tech simulator (e.g. stick the simulator in the back of a 767, and they're almost there).

-LOL... just (a minute ago) heard that Boeing didn't realize the USAF thought that "Bigger was Better." If the "AF had made this understanding clear to Boeing as they must have to EADS, Boeing would have presented what the USAF wanted." Just a simple communication error... :smokie

Regardless, I'm not sure this is really an issue that Democrats want to bring up. While BA is forcing the issue (maybe), with congress and the many Democrats that are tied in the past and are now lining up behind BA, I can't imagine that when everything comes out, McCain won't look like the one who stood up to corruption, against Congress and the admin. & most importantly for the tax payers.

How are Dems. going to explain the reasoning, other than "Jobs" (iffy at best, IMO). The past problems, no need for competition, demanding to pull out of the war "on principle" and due to the cost (while building planes that fuel a war), as well as other--more-- AC, like the F-22/35? Maybe, they can get these things free:rolleyes:

I'm guessing BA is pressing for plenty O'future contracts (Military/Civil). Maybe some future share if they can turn some 777s into refueling platforms (now that Boeing knows/understands the USAF wants a bigger plane).

Or "trickle down fuel" (i.e. 747-8Fs refuel 777s, which refuel either/or 767s--can't hurt in case we need a "small footprint refueling flying object":rolleyes:--F-22s which can refuel each other...U(C)AVs, etc).

Anyways, its not like I wouldn't have wanted to see Boeing get the contract if they were a little less social in trying to capitalize on a contract... but there are limits IMHO. Anti-Competitive, Capital-Hill Conspicuous Consumption Contracts, Can Cause Colossal Consequences (C-Note):hitwall .

RE: following article (Boeing),
Assuming everything is "on track," in GD's post, I saw Boeing bought their own 747 (2008). Other "cargo companies" have ordered 747-8Fs. Maybe (big maybe), they're going to either/or fuel or carry the large cargo for the stuff below (Let the campaign begin).

-Citation http://www.geostrategy-direct.com (ed. 3/5/08)
The site is PWP, but "Somebody" sent me the article through e-mail (I think I have seen this technique used here before...) "Somebody" allowed me to view the article in its entirety--they match verbatim. Mods, if there are complaints please just remove the article. Much appreciated.


Airborne anti-missile laser on track for 2009 test

WASHINGTON — After years of delay, a U.S. Missile Defense Agency project has succeeded in integrating a high-energy laser in a passenger jet that will be used to intercept a missile in a planned test next year.

The prime contractor of the Airborne Laser project, Boeing, has installed six chemical oxygen iodine modules aboard a B747 platform.

The Boeing 747-400 based ABL.
"ABL's weapon system integration team [have installed] major components of the high-energy laser aboard the aircraft, and they remain on track to reach the missile shoot-down demonstration planned for 2009," Boeing Missile Defense Systems vice president Scott Fancher said.

Officials and executives said Boeing has completed more than 70 percent of overall laser integration. They said laser ground tests at Edwards Air Force base would begin following final inspection as well as plumbing and wiring installation. ABL was designed to intercept a missile in its boost phase of launch.

"By implementing lessons learned and Lean-plus process improvements, the team has reduced laser installation time on the aircraft to about one-third from what was required when the laser modules were installed in the system integration laboratory at Edwards," Fancher said.

ABL consists of a modified Boeing 747-400F, the back half of which holds the high-energy laser, designed and built by Northrop Grumman. The aircraft's front half contains the beam control/fire control system, developed by Lockheed Martin, and the battle management system, provided by Boeing.

In 2005, MDA oversaw ground tests of the laser modules, refurbished two years later. ABL has also tracked and fired a surrogate high-energy laser toward a target missile.

"This dual-path approach demonstrated all of ABL's key technologies," Boeing said. "Integration of the high-energy laser in the aircraft will lead to ground and flight tests of the entire ABL weapon system, culminating in an airborne intercept test against a ballistic missile in 2009."
 
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metro

New Member
I think the last thing the DoD would want is a new administration reviewing what it may regard as a flawed decision in respect of a $30-40 billion contract and raise the possibility of cancelling the decision a second time.
If I follow you correctly, I think it's going to be difficult to explain why the decision was canceled the first time? Now, why would it be approved and then canceled a second time? Then, explain why the decision being made a a third time, is now correct and besides, the tankers are of critical necessity (to say the least). I don't see how a "good argument" can be made that EADS beat BA, yet, BA (a large part of the program's problems) just takes over again?

Perhaps a GAO review would be wise. I think having a bi-partisan support of the decision would be useful even necessary. That is of course another political minefield to negotiate considering the opposition raised and vested interest of the democrats particularly in respect of jobs in their constituents.
This is a minefield that the democrats would be laying for themselves. "Military spending is killing us. We need out of the war STAT. We need to spend funds in other areas. However, we need to award this huge contract for military tankers, to BA because no matter the cost or loss, it's all about keeping 'jobs' [in my district/state]".
IMO, the ice is thin enough already.

I doubt if the DoD has the sufficient will power or desire to seek a bi-partisan support for its decision. It already adds an unprecendented complication to decision making. Rep congressman will take the opportunity to paint Democrats as anti-military. Democrats in congress will take the opportunity to paint the reps as unreliable and anti-US jobs. I think the procurement is far from confirmed at this time.
The Dems, are going to be asked by their voters, "who are we bombing"? "If the contract is so critical, "how do we have the time to wait on BA"?... and on and on.
There is one republican that will be seen as cutting the interests out of the procurement process is the person I don't think that democrats want to pick a fight with here.
It's a delicate matter for sure.
JMO

Cheers
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
...
The requirements were re-written to allow EADS/Airbus to keep in the comp.
That's because the USAF was caught writing the requirements around the 767. Short of including "must be a Boeing 767", it couldn't have been more obvious. After the first fiasco, the USAF couldn't go ahead with a second competition which Northrop-Grumman could have successfully challenged in court with that argument. Generals heads would have rolled, & they knew it. They had to rewrite the requirements to make it possible to meet it with another aircraft. Once they'd done that, they had to choose a winner according to the revised requirements, for the same reason.

Boeings grounds for a challenge are orders of magnitudes weaker than the grounds NG/EADS would have if Boeing had won, or if they'd proceeded with the original requirements.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Sounds right except that after they re-wrote it the first time, EADS couldn't meet the requirements. EADS complained, threatened not to participate, so they re-wrote it a second time. Not surprising that EADS won isn't it?
Well, they had to if they wanted NG/EADS to participate. The alternative was a sole source/no bid contract. If that was the intent, they should have done so.

Legal reasons for sole source contracts include:

1. only one firm has a product that will meet the projects needs or only one firm can do the work;
2. the existence of an unusual and compelling urgency;
3. for purposes of industrial mobilization or expert services;
4. an international agreement;
5. sole source is authorized or required by law, e.g., socio-economic programs;
6. national security; and
7. the public interest.


Since they did put the contract out for tender, they forfeited above arguments and have to evaluate bids on merit.
 
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