KC-X goes to Northrop/EADS

[Magoo]

Word is coming through from the US that the A330-based Northrop/EADS KC-30 has won the USAF KC-X competition!

In service it will be known as the KC-45A.

 

[irtusk]

now will it
a) survive the protests
b) survive Congress
c) survive the next administration which might look to do a little pruning of the military in general

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Word is coming through from the US that the A330-based Northrop/EADS KC-30 has won the USAF KC-X competition!

In service it will be known as the KC-45A.

I heard the desision was going to come through today! Great news for the USAF! They may finally get a new AAR asset.

Magoo any news on CSARX???

 

[F-15 Eagle]

now will it
a) survive the protests
b) survive Congress
c) survive the next administration which might look to do a little pruning of the military in general

Thats a petty blank statement. I don't see the military spending being reduced anytime soon with the current crisis the U.S. Military is in right now. There might be a few protest but those people are just wasting their time.

 

[metro]

now will it
a) survive the protests
b) survive Congress
c) survive the next administration which might look to do a little pruning of the military in general

a-b) Most people don't know a problem existed. I think any protesting has already run its coarse. The buyer protesting, doesn't reflect well on the methods he/she has used in the past, and I can't imagine they believe tax payers will have confidence in what they want to buy in the future. If congress protests (i think it's a done deal), then the possibility opens up for endless questions. I'm not sure that this is in the interest of any politicians nor the company that would have to explain all of the problems.
c)There are a lot of calculations here. I've already seen numerous signe requests from Congressmen on both sides, stating "the need" to keep the production of the F-22 running.

 

[Magoo]

I heard the desision was going to come through today! Great news for the USAF! They may finally get a new AAR asset.

Magoo any news on CSARX???

CSAR-X was re-started after the GAO upheld protests by LockMart and Sikorsky. It'll be a while before any announcements are made I think.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted

 

[Falstaff]

The whole affair can be summarised in one word: Penalty.

Its probably arguable who really bears the penalty, Boeing, USAF or the taxpayer.

Paying over $5-10b more for the same number of tankers (albeit better tankers) in the light of competing priorities (eg F22s) seem a strange decision.

Critics might cite this as just another example of uncontrolled air force budget madness...

Yet, the tanker replacement is long overdue.

Quoting defensenews.com
:

The modified Airbus A330 aerial refueling tanker "gives us more," said Air Force Secretary Michael W. Wynne. "More fuel to offload, more cargo, more passengers, more availability, more flexibility, more dependability and more ability to move patients."

I don't want to start a this vs. that discussion, but I want to state that there are some reasons for the A330 and part of that is that it's a very, very economical and reliable plane and almost a decade ahead of the 767 as far as wing design, cockpit layout and several others are concerned. It always was my impression and that of fellow engineers that a win by Boeing would be a pure political step, that's why everyone expected it btw. Congratulations to the USAF really, for making a sound decision and risking outrage.

 

[radiosilence]

This is not a done deal yet.

Boeing promised to created 40,000 jobs in US had they won and EADS is promising less than half of that amount . With the US economy on the verge of a recession this could become a big political issue.

Congress can block funding for the contract which is possible. Boeing will likely appeal the contract since it could worth up to $100 billion and lobby congress hard to review the deal.

Edit: Seems like they have started lobbing already.

"It's stunning to me that we would outsource the production of these airplanes to Europe instead of building them in America," said Republican Senator Sam Brownback about the Pentagon's decision.

"We should have an American tanker built by an American company with American workers," said Republican Representative Todd Tiahrt.
"I cannot believe we would create French jobs in place of Kansas jobs."

link

 

[Gryphon]

this vs. that discussion?

Quoting defensenews.com
:



I don't want to start a this vs. that discussion

Wouldn't this be an appropriate time to contemplate a 'this vs that' discussion? To heck with the jobs, is this the KC-30 a better tool for our warfighters? If so, as appears likely, cheers for the DoD for bravely selecting the superior plane.

All the stats I have seen show the EADS plane to have superior range, fuel capacity and cargo capacity. If there is any element of aircraft performance where the Boeing offering is superior on technical merits - I haven't seen it.

 

[Falstaff]

This is not a done deal yet.

Boeing promised to created 40,000 jobs in US had they won and EADS is promising less than half of that amount . With the US economy on the verge of a recession this could become a big political issue.

Congress can block funding for the contract which is possible. Boeing will likely appeal the contract since it could worth up to $100 billion and lobby congress hard to review the deal.

Edit: Seems like they have started lobbing already.





link

They've done quite a lot of lobbying before. Interesting nevertheless that none of them hillbillys noticed the plane will be built in America, by American workers in a new factory, with an American lead contractor and some parts replaced in favor of American stuff.

BTW if you read the numbers carefully you'll notice that to secure otherwise dooomed and to ceate new jobs are different things and in combination with the fact that the A330 isn't as much at the end of it's commercial life as the 767 is, the claculation looks much different.

Fact is, the KC-45 is the best plane for the job. Long live the freedom fries.

 

[f-22fan12]

Thats a petty blank statement. I don't see the military spending being reduced anytime soon with the current crisis the U.S. Military is in right now. There might be a few protest but those people are just wasting their time.

Military spending in the U.S. is simple. A Democratic President= less military spending. A Republican= more military spending.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Military spending in the U.S. is simple. A Democratic President= less military spending. A Republican= more military spending.

OK then so why do Democrats spend less on the military? That makes no sense at all.

 

[kato]

Military spending in the U.S. is simple. A Democratic President= less military spending. A Republican= more military spending.

I'm pretty sure Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK or LBJ wouldn't agree with you there. Err, if any of them was still alive, that is.

 

[tphuang]

Word is coming through from the US that the A330-based Northrop/EADS KC-30 has won the USAF KC-X competition!

In service it will be known as the KC-45A.

any idea on some of the technical reasons aside from the fact that A330 is just a newer and more fuel efficient design than B767?

 

[kato]

KC-30 vs KC-767, single aircraft comparison:

In tanker configuration, 30% more fuel (112.5t vs 85.5t).
In passenger configuration, 40% more passengers (280 vs 200).
In cargo configuration, 70% more standardized 463-L pallets (32 vs 19).

Boom fuel throughput: 100% higher (1200gal/min vs 600 gal/min).
Hose fuel throughput: (identical)
Wingpods fuel throughput: 5% higher (420 gal/min vs 400 gal/min).

(throughput for the EADS refuelling system as outlined for KC-30)

At least that's some preliminary data i've seen somewhere on the internet.

 

[Jon K]

I'm pretty sure Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK or LBJ wouldn't agree with you there. Err, if any of them was still alive, that is.

For last hundred years only Republican presidents which have made significant raises on defense budget have been Reagan and Bush Rerun. For first case, there was Cold War to be won and the buildup was heavily built upon strategic decisions made by Nixon, Ford and Carter adminstrations. For second case, the increased spending has been due to fighting a large scale war with rather similar effects as the Vietnam War on US military, ie. long term procurement is seriously curtailed due to various short term needs.

 

[Capt. Picard]

This was always going to be a problematic choice. With Boeing offering an aircraft long out of production for airlines they couldn't ever win it. They are relying on the protectionist and anti competitive congressmen that have received their campaign donations (read "bribes").
Really what this shows is that the USAF will be forced to have inferior equipment and capabilities eventually to keep the neocons happy. This is suprising given that they have sent the country broke and made it dramatically less secure in the last 8 years. Lets see if the American people are really interested in throwing off the juvenille "Freedom Fries" era and reenter the world of international cooperation and competitivness.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted.

 

[Capt. Picard]

Eg, why did Boeing go ahead with the 767 instead of the KC777 which would have been a direct competitor of the A330? As far as I understand, the KC777 was available when the bid was launched.

If specs was a major consideration, why didn't the USAF ask for the -777? Strange circumstances...

Nothing strange about it. The 777, even the -200 version, is significantly heavier than the 330, it is also more expensive to run. They chose the 767 airframe as it is in a comparable weight class.