JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions
- Thread starter kilo_4que
- Start date
Re: FC-1 Super 7
Welcome to the forum Timmy. Watcher please don't take offence since Timmy obviously misinterpreted what you were trying to say.
Timmy we used to have the JF-17 video in our video collection on this website but WEBS (the webmaster) decided to take down the video section because of bandwidth issues.
The links you gave belong to PDF website. The problem is that PDF is censoring DefenceTalk.com for some unknown reasons. So as a result DefenceTalk.com team has decided to censor PDF. The Watcher is a senior member on this website and what he wanted to say was that you should not post links to PDF here. That was all.
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Ok so now that is cleared up.....I think all of us have seen the JF-17 video. but there have been no new development on it since the test flight. So do you know anything about the status of the second and third prototypes which are being manufactured now Timmy????
xie xie.
Welcome to the forum Timmy. Watcher please don't take offence since Timmy obviously misinterpreted what you were trying to say.
Timmy we used to have the JF-17 video in our video collection on this website but WEBS (the webmaster) decided to take down the video section because of bandwidth issues.
The links you gave belong to PDF website. The problem is that PDF is censoring DefenceTalk.com for some unknown reasons. So as a result DefenceTalk.com team has decided to censor PDF. The Watcher is a senior member on this website and what he wanted to say was that you should not post links to PDF here. That was all.
*********************************************
Ok so now that is cleared up.....I think all of us have seen the JF-17 video. but there have been no new development on it since the test flight. So do you know anything about the status of the second and third prototypes which are being manufactured now Timmy????
xie xie.
regardin further developments of it after the first test flight, my friend everyday developments are taking place. i read the Air Marshall's interview when he was in London, he said that by 2006 its gona be fully ready and by no doubt the balance will change in our favour. these were his comments here!!!
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Re: FC-1 Super 7
Oh man , Let me take laughf on ullu :alian
well well ,, First you all listen ,
1) Chinese dont know how to make Planes , they just do Resverse Engg. on each and everything they buyed from Russia. So FC-1/ Super 7 is also one of that a russian old vitange plane reverse engg and old wine in new bottle. Moreover till now no Chinese Machine had been met sucess in the field of reliability. I don;t think any county will buy this plane apart from PAK
2) Indian LCA is World lightest and smallest plane , I will like to laughf on ullu who dont have nay knoledge about plane development. Smallest and Lightest made till now is LCA , and delaying is not becasue that indian scientiest can't made plane but only becasue of they are making world best stealth plane , which can even pass under the noise of Pakistan defence system.
3) delaying in LCA is only becasue of indian scientic are learning a lot of from it. Which will be implemented in the MCA ( Medium Combat Aircraft) which is going to be started scoon. Slealth is also the majoy factor of its delay, Scientiest is working over night to improve its slealth with russian and Isreali's. India want that plane to be perfect in everything.
4) India want to use LCA as a escote of SU30, Mirage, and jagur, airdefence and frontline plane , It will act as a Air defence fighter andwill be put on forntline air base while big one will behind. LCa can easily take off from small strip , and easly be hide and can take down any warplane and also hard to target by any missile or home in by any fighter in the dogfight dur to its small size makes it difficult to see. It will use as the first line of defence and attack in the future.
5) LCA is all weather milti role fighter with state of ART jammer and anti jamming rader on board which makes it a formidable figter in the world.
6) I heard mmalam saying that " The F-7Pg's in PAF service have far more advanced avionics on board than the Indian Mig-21s."
To my friend mmalam , having it one thing and developing fighting skills is another. I will like to remind you that Pakistan F-104 Starfighter was far superior then indian Planes in the war but then also indian planes beaten them in the dog fight and not to forget to mention about SABRES also which was outbeten by indian infirior planes.
Oh man , Let me take laughf on ullu :alian
well well ,, First you all listen ,
1) Chinese dont know how to make Planes , they just do Resverse Engg. on each and everything they buyed from Russia. So FC-1/ Super 7 is also one of that a russian old vitange plane reverse engg and old wine in new bottle. Moreover till now no Chinese Machine had been met sucess in the field of reliability. I don;t think any county will buy this plane apart from PAK
2) Indian LCA is World lightest and smallest plane , I will like to laughf on ullu who dont have nay knoledge about plane development. Smallest and Lightest made till now is LCA , and delaying is not becasue that indian scientiest can't made plane but only becasue of they are making world best stealth plane , which can even pass under the noise of Pakistan defence system.
3) delaying in LCA is only becasue of indian scientic are learning a lot of from it. Which will be implemented in the MCA ( Medium Combat Aircraft) which is going to be started scoon. Slealth is also the majoy factor of its delay, Scientiest is working over night to improve its slealth with russian and Isreali's. India want that plane to be perfect in everything.
4) India want to use LCA as a escote of SU30, Mirage, and jagur, airdefence and frontline plane , It will act as a Air defence fighter andwill be put on forntline air base while big one will behind. LCa can easily take off from small strip , and easly be hide and can take down any warplane and also hard to target by any missile or home in by any fighter in the dogfight dur to its small size makes it difficult to see. It will use as the first line of defence and attack in the future.
5) LCA is all weather milti role fighter with state of ART jammer and anti jamming rader on board which makes it a formidable figter in the world.
6) I heard mmalam saying that " The F-7Pg's in PAF service have far more advanced avionics on board than the Indian Mig-21s."
To my friend mmalam , having it one thing and developing fighting skills is another. I will like to remind you that Pakistan F-104 Starfighter was far superior then indian Planes in the war but then also indian planes beaten them in the dog fight and not to forget to mention about SABRES also which was outbeten by indian infirior planes.
Re: FC-1 Super 7
Timmy I have one request for you. Can you please write everything in one post instead of spreading everything in 4 or 5 posts. Thanks.
Ahaa...well we all look forward to the next test flight.
As for our Pakistani and Indian members...please stop bringing other planes into this thread. The thread is for the FC-1 alone...keep it that way. Thank You.
Timmy I have one request for you. Can you please write everything in one post instead of spreading everything in 4 or 5 posts. Thanks.
Ahaa...well we all look forward to the next test flight.
As for our Pakistani and Indian members...please stop bringing other planes into this thread. The thread is for the FC-1 alone...keep it that way. Thank You.
Ditto! oh and by the way if Su -(-37) has any knowledge about fighters of the 50s & 60s he ought to know that the Hunter had better performance than the F86.Also the kill ratio in both wars was in favour of PAF & this has been documented & confirmed by neutral observers.ullu said:
To end with a quote from an Indian pilot upon encountering an F104:
PAJHOO! OAAYE ! 104 EEEE! ( translation RUN! IT'S A 104!)
:nutkick :finger
LOL. I thought the quote was "Achtung! Star fighter!!"umair said:
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
indians never learn do they, in 1965 pak shot the IAF like ducks, in 71, let me sum up the war in the words of General Chuck Yeager (the first man to cross the sound barrier, if any any indian dosent know!) " the PAF whipped their (indian) asses in the skies, but on the ground it was the other way round". This is written in his biography. no matter how much indians might boast of their air force, it is the man in the cockpit which matters the most!!!
besides i dont wanna waste my time on such stupid topics, any1 has any news about JF-17!!!
indians never learn do they, in 1965 pak shot the IAF like ducks, in 71, let me sum up the war in the words of General Chuck Yeager (the first man to cross the sound barrier, if any any indian dosent know!) " the PAF whipped their (indian) asses in the skies, but on the ground it was the other way round". This is written in his biography. no matter how much indians might boast of their air force, it is the man in the cockpit which matters the most!!!
besides i dont wanna waste my time on such stupid topics, any1 has any news about JF-17!!!
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
1971 WAR Extracts
Pakistani Air Force F-104 Starfighters
The Starfighter was touted as the most modern and dangerous aircraft in the PAF's inventory. Just before the War, Pakistan beefed up its Starfighter fleet with the help of some friendly countries. But the aircraft proved utterly incapable of standing up to the IAF.
At least 8 of these aircraft were shot down by IAF pilots.
The Pakistanis, according to the IISS (International Institute of Strategic Studies) Military Balance 1971, had 19 squadrons including two B-57B light bomber and one recce squadron. According to our studies, the Pakistanis had about 14 effective combat squadrons in the West excluding the B-57B bombers and recce aircraft. However, PAF squadrons tended to have more aircraft per squadron than the IAF. This was further bolstered by the acquisition of an unspecified number of F-86 Sabres, Mirage IIIs, Starfighters (from Jordan) and about 15 Chinese F-6s in the months prior to the war. These aircraft were not accounted for the IISS in its 1971 Military balance or in any other report. Also, the serviceability of PAF Sabres was much higher - meaning more aircraft could be fielded. The Indians had 16 aircraft per combat squadron but the effective availability during the war was 12 per squadron. Bomber and transporter squadron had 10 aircraft each of which about 6 to 8 were serviceable at any given time. Many PAF squadrons, in contrast, had as many as 25 aircraft. Thus, while the PAf was outnumbered in the West, at no point was it ever fighting against overwhelming odds.
More important, the PAF on the whole was far better equipped to fight a modern air war than the IAF. The Pakistanis, for instance, had very effective air-to-air missiles which the Indians lacked. American made Sidewinder missiles were fitted on Chinese-made F-6 aircraft, on Sabres and on Starfighters. These were accurate missiles and accounted for at least three kills by PAF fighters in air-to-air combat. The Indians had only their guns and cannons to rely on. The Soviet-made MiG-21 was the only aircraft in the IAF's inventory fitted with missiles. But the missiles - the infamous K-13 - were a poor copy of the American Sidewinders and were so useless that they were scrapped after the war.
The other major advantage, and a critical one, the Pakistanis had was their radar and communication system built by the Americans. In most parts, particularly Punjab, the PAF had a real time radar surveillance system, the ability to track low flying aircraft coming over Pakistan and the means to guide their aircraft right to intruding enemy aircraft. India had nothing in comparison. Instead of low level radar, the IAF had to rely on men posted near the borders. Every time a suspected enemy aircraft flew over, the observation post had to call in on their high frequency radio sets to warn the sector controllers. Even the medium and high level radar cover available to the IAF was poor with the result that each forward base had to earmark between one to two combat squadrons just for air defence. It was a primitive and wasteful system - and the Pakistanis knew it. The technologically inferior but numerically superior Indian Air Force could be tackled quite easily by a smaller but more modern force. This is what prompted the PAF to launch pre-emptive strikes against forward Indian air bases on 3 December 1971.
By the end of the first week of the war, PAF fighters in the West appeared to have lost their will to fight. By this time, the IAF was repeatedly hitting secondary targets including railway yards, cantonments, bridges and other installations as well as providing close air support to the Army wherever it was required. The most dangerous were the close air support missions which involved flying low and exposing aircraft to intense ground fire. The IAF lost the most aircraft on these missions as is proved by the high losses suffered by IAF Sukhoi-7 and Hunter squadrons. But their pilots flew sortie after sortie keeping up with the Army and disrupting enemy troop and tank concentrations.
Once it was known that the Indian Army was knocking at the gates of Dhaka, the PAF in the West virtually gave up flying. During the last few days of the war, the IAF brass ordered attacks on PAF airfields with the sole purpose of drawing out their aircraft. But that rarely succeeded as the PAF aircraft for the most part remained secured inside their pens, refusing to come out and fight. The strongest indictment of the Pakistani Air Force was made not by an Indian but by the Pakistani leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who took over from General Yahya Yahya Khan after the 1971 defeat. On taking over, he made a speech in which he castigated the PAF chief Air Marshal Rahim Khan and several other officers by name.
A better analysis of effectiveness of the two air forces is provided by the losses per sortie figure. The IAF flew at least double the number of combat sorties per day than the PAF, thereby exposing itself to ground fire and enemy interdiction. Despite this, the IAF's attrition rate of 0.86 per 100 sorties during the 1971 War compares favourably with the Israeli rate of 1.1 in the Yom Kippur War. The PAF's overall attrition rate works out to 2.47 (including transporters and recce aircraft lost on the ground). If aircraft destroyed on the ground are not taken into account, the rate works out to 1.12, which is still very high given that PAF aircraft never really stood back to fight
Combat Aircraft Losses
Description Pakistan India
Air to Air 19 19
Ground Fire 15 35
On Ground 29 2
Total 63 56
1971 WAR Extracts
Pakistani Air Force F-104 Starfighters
The Starfighter was touted as the most modern and dangerous aircraft in the PAF's inventory. Just before the War, Pakistan beefed up its Starfighter fleet with the help of some friendly countries. But the aircraft proved utterly incapable of standing up to the IAF.
At least 8 of these aircraft were shot down by IAF pilots.
The Pakistanis, according to the IISS (International Institute of Strategic Studies) Military Balance 1971, had 19 squadrons including two B-57B light bomber and one recce squadron. According to our studies, the Pakistanis had about 14 effective combat squadrons in the West excluding the B-57B bombers and recce aircraft. However, PAF squadrons tended to have more aircraft per squadron than the IAF. This was further bolstered by the acquisition of an unspecified number of F-86 Sabres, Mirage IIIs, Starfighters (from Jordan) and about 15 Chinese F-6s in the months prior to the war. These aircraft were not accounted for the IISS in its 1971 Military balance or in any other report. Also, the serviceability of PAF Sabres was much higher - meaning more aircraft could be fielded. The Indians had 16 aircraft per combat squadron but the effective availability during the war was 12 per squadron. Bomber and transporter squadron had 10 aircraft each of which about 6 to 8 were serviceable at any given time. Many PAF squadrons, in contrast, had as many as 25 aircraft. Thus, while the PAf was outnumbered in the West, at no point was it ever fighting against overwhelming odds.
More important, the PAF on the whole was far better equipped to fight a modern air war than the IAF. The Pakistanis, for instance, had very effective air-to-air missiles which the Indians lacked. American made Sidewinder missiles were fitted on Chinese-made F-6 aircraft, on Sabres and on Starfighters. These were accurate missiles and accounted for at least three kills by PAF fighters in air-to-air combat. The Indians had only their guns and cannons to rely on. The Soviet-made MiG-21 was the only aircraft in the IAF's inventory fitted with missiles. But the missiles - the infamous K-13 - were a poor copy of the American Sidewinders and were so useless that they were scrapped after the war.
The other major advantage, and a critical one, the Pakistanis had was their radar and communication system built by the Americans. In most parts, particularly Punjab, the PAF had a real time radar surveillance system, the ability to track low flying aircraft coming over Pakistan and the means to guide their aircraft right to intruding enemy aircraft. India had nothing in comparison. Instead of low level radar, the IAF had to rely on men posted near the borders. Every time a suspected enemy aircraft flew over, the observation post had to call in on their high frequency radio sets to warn the sector controllers. Even the medium and high level radar cover available to the IAF was poor with the result that each forward base had to earmark between one to two combat squadrons just for air defence. It was a primitive and wasteful system - and the Pakistanis knew it. The technologically inferior but numerically superior Indian Air Force could be tackled quite easily by a smaller but more modern force. This is what prompted the PAF to launch pre-emptive strikes against forward Indian air bases on 3 December 1971.
By the end of the first week of the war, PAF fighters in the West appeared to have lost their will to fight. By this time, the IAF was repeatedly hitting secondary targets including railway yards, cantonments, bridges and other installations as well as providing close air support to the Army wherever it was required. The most dangerous were the close air support missions which involved flying low and exposing aircraft to intense ground fire. The IAF lost the most aircraft on these missions as is proved by the high losses suffered by IAF Sukhoi-7 and Hunter squadrons. But their pilots flew sortie after sortie keeping up with the Army and disrupting enemy troop and tank concentrations.
Once it was known that the Indian Army was knocking at the gates of Dhaka, the PAF in the West virtually gave up flying. During the last few days of the war, the IAF brass ordered attacks on PAF airfields with the sole purpose of drawing out their aircraft. But that rarely succeeded as the PAF aircraft for the most part remained secured inside their pens, refusing to come out and fight. The strongest indictment of the Pakistani Air Force was made not by an Indian but by the Pakistani leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who took over from General Yahya Yahya Khan after the 1971 defeat. On taking over, he made a speech in which he castigated the PAF chief Air Marshal Rahim Khan and several other officers by name.
A better analysis of effectiveness of the two air forces is provided by the losses per sortie figure. The IAF flew at least double the number of combat sorties per day than the PAF, thereby exposing itself to ground fire and enemy interdiction. Despite this, the IAF's attrition rate of 0.86 per 100 sorties during the 1971 War compares favourably with the Israeli rate of 1.1 in the Yom Kippur War. The PAF's overall attrition rate works out to 2.47 (including transporters and recce aircraft lost on the ground). If aircraft destroyed on the ground are not taken into account, the rate works out to 1.12, which is still very high given that PAF aircraft never really stood back to fight
Combat Aircraft Losses
Description Pakistan India
Air to Air 19 19
Ground Fire 15 35
On Ground 29 2
Total 63 56
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Well for this particular artical , my source is International Institute of Strategic Studies report which has full description of indo pak air war. report is too big to fit in , so wrote some lines.
That report contains hour by hour full details of airwar and it also include pic taken by indian planes while shooting down pakistan planes or boming pakistan planes , clearlying showing how bullets hitting 107 it going down. also taken the view of pakistan airmens for its authenticityand also taken their account and reached to the following conclusion. This report is prepaired by nutural observers.
Well for this particular artical , my source is International Institute of Strategic Studies report which has full description of indo pak air war. report is too big to fit in , so wrote some lines.
That report contains hour by hour full details of airwar and it also include pic taken by indian planes while shooting down pakistan planes or boming pakistan planes , clearlying showing how bullets hitting 107 it going down. also taken the view of pakistan airmens for its authenticityand also taken their account and reached to the following conclusion. This report is prepaired by nutural observers.
Re: Upgrades in Jf-17
My uncle has been flying these things,I know many of his colleagues & none of them have had any complaints regarding Chinese fighters (except for a few itsy bitsy issues with the A5). They regard them as just fine.I have also come to know that the F7PG even gives the Falcons a tough time during exercises. :smokingc:
China's fighter quality is not good! :lolol :lololsuleman said:
My uncle has been flying these things,I know many of his colleagues & none of them have had any complaints regarding Chinese fighters (except for a few itsy bitsy issues with the A5). They regard them as just fine.I have also come to know that the F7PG even gives the Falcons a tough time during exercises. :smokingc: