Javelin ATM on Modern Western Tank

[Waylander]

If ERA works well it breaks the missile into pieces.

And ARENA for example shoots a load into the way of the missile like this.
If this works right the tandem warhead never reaches the tank itself.


http://rapidshare.de/files/25599909/arena_9m111m.avi.html

Sroll down. Klick onto "free". Wait some seconds. Write the letters into the box and klick onto "Download via...".

Sorry, for the german page.

 

[brian1225]

It is a cool video. One simply can't have to much of it.

It's an unfortunate fact of life, tanks in combat are full of fuel and explosives... Otherwise they'd be called bunkers.

As for modern western armor surviving any better it's doubtful, the Javelin's dual warhead will cut through reactive and then the thin top armor with ease. I don't know if modern obscurrents would work against the IR guidance or not.

As for the giant explosian, Russian tanks tend to die dramatic deaths due to poor amunition storage systems. I wouldn't want to be in an M-1's turret following a top attack, if the crew compartment was penetrated. On the opposite note, if the round struck the ammo compartment, I'd say the explosion would be an incedible thing to see, but the crew would probably survive, thank god for blow out panels.

 

[Waylander]

They might die more spectacular but they just do not disintegrate like this. Nearly nothing is left of the tank (Despite the fact that the explosion begins before the missile hits the tank ).
Ts might throw their turrets but they do not blow up like this.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

I'm very doubtful about Arena-e and hard kill systems in general...
On the video, the tank carrying the arena system is static, and the missile is coming from a direction and altitude very well cover by the system...

Since in a real engagement, the Javelin come from above and both the tank and the missile are moving, trajectory are a bit more complicated to calculate, so the system is likely to throw its shrapnel in a ineffective way..

 

[Waylander]

I don't know how new this video is and how far the system is developed.
There are just not enough available facts to be sure if it works or not.

I am also doubtfull about active passive systems and think that a good and modern passive armor is the base of every defense but it would be a real bad surprise if the russians developed something that is able to kill a Javelin, Spike, etc.
Even if it just works with 40% success it would be a real good thing.

 

[Viktor]

i doubt how effective those active protection systems are really.

During Russian Afgan war back in 80 T-55 had active protective sistem of first generation called drozd-1 its record was 80 % succesfull. Main problem was solders whitch where hurt if near tank during the blast. Russian second generation APS like Arena or Drozd-2 is for sure mutch more effective with 360 degree cover area around the tank.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

its record was 80 % succesfull.

Against what type of AT weapons?

 

[TrangleC]

Speaking of active protection systems...
Did you read this?

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...erman_Armed_Forces_Puma_Armoured_Vehicles.php

I heard impressive things about ARENA 2 and i think other providers like EADS wouldn't bother developing such systems if they would be useless.

There are other concepts than firing rocket kill projectiles, like having a "blow away part" of the armour flying into the path of the incoming projectile. It doesn't matter how much armour a warhead can penetrate when he only hits a flying armour plate several meters in front of the target.

Calculating the path of the projectile and intercepting it is no problem anymore for advanced computer systems and lauchning systems. And the faster the projectile is, the less likely it is to leave it's path in the final phase of flight.

 

[Viktor]

Against what type of AT weapons?

Against RPG mostly as it was mostly used by Afgan fighters, but it will have no problem with handling ATGM. Bonus is Shtora-1. It is an electro-optical jammer that jams the enemy's semiautomatic command to line of sight (SACLOS) antitank guided missiles, laser rangefinders and target designators.

 

[Viktor]

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...erman_Armed_Forces_Puma_Armoured_Vehicles.php
I heard impressive things about ARENA 2 and i think other providers like EADS wouldn't bother developing such systems if they would be useless.

What Arena-2 I havent heard about it jet. Have you any links?

 

[merocaine]

Hmmm, those active protection systems sound quite impressive, I guess one way around it would be atgm's crews firing in tandem, maybe two or 3 at a time.
Like the russian anti tank batterys would do in world war 2, all the guns in the Battery would concentrate on one tank till it was disabled, then move on to the next.

 

[B.Smitty]

A western MBT might be able to survive a close range Javelin shot. It wouldn't be able to use the top attack mode and might hit at a flatter angle. If it hit the turret front, it may not penetrate.

Lots of 'if's and 'might's though. Wouldn't want to find out.

 

[TrangleC]

What Arena-2 I havent heard about it jet. Have you any links?

Sorry, can't find any links. I just was told about it.

But while searching for the links on ARENA 2, i found a advertisement clip for the israeli TROPHY system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsJLHX7gxxg&NR

And this on ARENA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXY7sfajS8
But actually that video is not very informative.

Hmmm, those active protection systems sound quite impressive, I guess one way around it would be atgm's crews firing in tandem, maybe two or 3 at a time.
Like the russian anti tank batterys would do in world war 2, all the guns in the Battery would concentrate on one tank till it was disabled, then move on to the next.

Well... i don't know about the first version of ARENA, but the newer systems can intercept multiple targets at the same time, so you would have to shoot quite a lot of ATGMs at the same time.
And when the protection system is linked to the main computer of the tank, the crew will most likely be told where the ATGMs were fired from and if i would be an leading engineer in one of those projects, i would include the option to have the tank gun automatically fire at the position the ATGM came from.

 

[merocaine]

if i would be an leading engineer in one of those projects, i would include the option to have the tank gun automatically fire at the position the ATGM came from.

I think the PLA's new tank is equiped with a system that does just that, it detects lazer range finders and rotates the turret on to the source of the Lazar, I believe it can then dazzle the crew/optics of the targeter with a powerfull counter Lazar or they can fire the main gun. Its a different docterine, take out the source rather than the missile.

If they newer active protection systems can take out multiple targets thats pretty impressive, maybe were on the way back to the older style anti tank gun, (like the old 88)rather than a guided missile. Very high volocity shells.

 

[Viktor]

Sorry, can't find any links. I just was told about it.

But while searching for the links on ARENA 2, i found a advertisement clip for the israeli TROPHY system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsJLHX7gxxg&NR

And this on ARENA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXY7sfajS8
But actually that video is not very informative.


Well... i don't know about the first version of ARENA, but the newer systems can intercept multiple targets at the same time, so you would have to shoot quite a lot of ATGMs at the same time.
And when the protection system is linked to the main computer of the tank, the crew will most likely be told where the ATGMs were fired from and if i would be an leading engineer in one of those projects, i would include the option to have the tank gun automatically fire at the position the ATGM came from.

I have read a loat about Trophy - real pain in the ass for all ATGM or Rpg. I realy dont understand why Israel army did not chose to instal it on Merkava tanks during recent war with Hez, unlike US anoucment that they will install it on its armor! :crazy
I have on computer three movies of Arena in action - That thing is efficient - not a scratch to a armor.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

I have on computer three movies of Arena in action

It would be fun if we could see them. Can you share it?

 

[kyakko]

here's a more realistic clip of what the javelin can do to a tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBB06L0Do5M

 

[erikjm71]

A few things to consider with the javelin.
Advantages: Fire and forget, quick to reload, Front and Top attack,Tandem Warhead, CLU is an awesome night vision device and can be used on OPs, near anr far field of view option.

Disadvantages: Heavy usually carried by dismounts, expensive, supposedly a live round goes for at least 70 grand. I cant verify but heard it from creditable sources. Basically with such a expensive warhead it probaly means not a lot of live round training for AT sections. Although there is a miles version and computer simulator.

You cant just point and shoot at something, not a area weapon. You need to actually lock on to a target in order to fire a round. It needs around 200meters of flight path to arm itself.

It couldnt be used like an AT4, RPG and other similar weapons.

 

[TrangleC]

200 meters is quite a lot, considering that such weapons are mainly used in urban warfare. Hunting tanks in the open field isn't really a infantry's job in the US army, as far as i know.

 

[erikjm71]

200 meters is quite a lot, considering that such weapons are mainly used in urban warfare. Hunting tanks in the open field isn't really a infantry's job in the US army, as far as i know.

I want to respond to your question and will admit I was a little off on my capabilities on the javelin. So I dug a little deeper. Minimum engagements are 150 meters for a top attack and 65 for a direct attack(frontal).
Again the primary use for a Javelin is anti armor, for the US it replaces the dragon AT weapon. It can be used as a fire support weapon for Bradleys, Tanks and TOWs. Its primarily used by dismounted infantry. The weapon can be used to cover flanks, avenues of approaches in a offensive or defensive posture. The maximum effective range is 2000 meters. Gunners mainly want to engage targets between 1000-2000 meters so they can be out of machine gun fire range. A gunner is exposed temporarly when he is engaging targets.
That is why the fire and forget is such a good feature.
Being that this is a new weapon system for the US military and being involved in low intensity conflict, the javelin has been used in urban enviroments. It is not being used in its main role Tank Killing, remember its an anti-armor weapon. Yes it can destroy trucks, small bunkers, crew served positions and so forth. Maybe even a small building. You just cant point the weapon at the side of a building and shoot. The Command Launch Unit(CLU) has to actually lock on a target with in the range capabilities before you can fire it. With all the clutter in the urban enviroment it will be difficult to lock on a target. It can lock on alot easier in the open field.Another use for the system is the CLU, it can be used as a surveillance tool in and it is a very good Night Vision system, with infra red.
The javelin is a very good weapon, but not perfect heavy bulky to carry and you also need the people to carry the extra rounds. Trust me its not fun humping one of these things. Until we engage in a full scale war with a country with good tanks, the javelin has not been put to the test in its primary role. It seems to be helpful in fighting insurgents but the weapon does need to operate in a anti armor role. I feel confident the weapon can get the job done, it just needs the chance.