Japenese 13,500 ton helicopter destroyers

[Musashi_kenshin]

isthvan has summed what I was going to say brilliantly.

Let's look at the PLAN. Most of their surface vessels and submarines are not that great, the former often lacking good AAW and ASW capabilities (especially in area defence), the latter usually having limited range and/or noise issues.

On the other hand, Japan has a large number of quality vessels, including some 40 modern destroyers and 17 submarines (with more on the way). That doesn't include these new helicopter platforms. The PLAN can't compare with that at all.

Russia has some good assets but can't actually operate them at their full potential because of funding problems.

 

[swerve]

I don't think they'd do it with those ships - they'd want the ASW capability. When they build carriers they'll do it properly.

Agreed. That's the way they've done everything else. Proper diesel submarines, proper LHDs (but not suitable for STOVL ops), proper AAW destroyers. Excellent ships, each well-designed for its main role & not compromised by half-arsed attempts to make it semi-capable of something else.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Agreed. That's the way they've done everything else. Proper diesel submarines, proper LHDs (but not suitable for STOVL ops), proper AAW destroyers. Excellent ships, each well-designed for its main role & not compromised by half-arsed attempts to make it semi-capable of something else.

Yes, you have to credit the Japanese on being able to make things that get the job done and get it done well. I'm glad we have such a strong overall relationship with them (perhaps second to the US) - they're a good friend to have.

 

[swerve]

Yes, you have to credit the Japanese on being able to make things that get the job done and get it done well. I'm glad we have such a strong overall relationship with them (perhaps second to the US) - they're a good friend to have.

I should perhaps declare a possible source of bias. I have a strong overall relationship with one Japanese person. She's downstairs watching the telly at the moment

 

[Wooki]

isthvan has summed what I was going to say brilliantly.

While I have appreciated reading this thread, when it comes to the reference towards training I would use caution.

Training is cyclic at the best of times and it is very hard to develop and maintain a high skill level. Money is an important factor, but of more importance (exponentionally so) is experience and I mean aged experience.

It has been my experience that while improving, I would not dare to compare a Japanese sailor's seamanship with a Russian sailor's seamanship.

While Japan has some of the best toys on the block, when push comes to shove they don't (or didn't, from personal recollection) quite have it.

You have 2 factors here;

1) Russia spent 50 years fighting the "cold war"
2) WW2 killed off most of the Japanese sea salts

and it shows. If you have been on a training exercise recently with the Japanese, think back and recall the amount of times that the mission, or objective was called off at the very end. ie. not carried through 100%. Its like playing golf with a 1 yard rule. If the ball is within 1 yard of the hole, call it in.

Anyway, like I wrote above, training is cyclic and I am sure Japanese seamanship has improved (and will continue to do so), but I would not dare to rate the JMSDF level of seamanship above any of their neighbors, especially a drunken bum in Vladivostok....That is to say "at least not yet".

Nippon ship building, on the other hand, is another kettle of fish and very rarely sub-standard.

My 2c

Cheers

W

 

[Francois]

One other "hidden" racist thread with obvious purpose, and no admin to say anything?
This forum is getting better and better...
Bravo!

Mod edit: I wouldn't go that far mate. I haven't seen anyone being remotely racist here. Message me with your problem if you wish, because I can't see any. AD.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

but I would not dare to rate the JMSDF level of seamanship above any of their neighbors, especially a drunken bum in Vladivostok

We never said that we did.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

One other "hidden" racist thread with obvious purpose, and no admin to say anything?
This forum is getting better and better...
Bravo!

Mod edit: I wouldn't go that far mate. I haven't seen anyone being remotely racist here. Message me with your problem if you wish, because I can't see any. AD.

Perhaps referring to some Russian sailors as drunken bums, other than that, dunno.

 

[Grand Danois]

Perhaps referring to some Russian sailors as drunken bums, other than that, dunno.

"Drunken bums" where IMV not used in a derogatory manner, but as an metaphor of the saltiness of Russian sailors.

 

[contedicavour]

Smitty makes a good point. The new cruiser-carriers could only carry a relatively small number of F-35s, while sacrificing a lot of the helo capability. They wouldn't use them offensively, and I can't see how having a limited number of carrier-born F-35s would help Japan defensively, especially when their ASW capability would be reduced.

So I think, conte, I would have to disagree with you.

Well, it depends whether you consider the air threat as higher or lower versus submarine threat. Given the quality of today's PLAN submarine force, I think the Japanese Navy-SDF can easily handle them with their own SSKs (18 kept operational, though another 3-4 are there in case of need). Given the increasing numbers of SU27/30 in the Chinese air force, and the fact that standoff weapons could be launched beyond the range of the Japanese SM2-III missiles, having a dozen F35Bs covering your fleet would be definitively more useful than 15-20 SH60s...

cheers

 

[isthvan]

Hi Wooki

I wouldn’t underestimate Japanese sailor's seamanship and experience. While they have suffered from WWII loses and post WWII limitations you must remember that when JSDFM was formed they reenlisted former Imperial navy commanders. Basically they went true same process like post war German navy and I wouldn’t say that German navy lack experience or seamanship…
During cold war Japanese navy task in Pacific was quite comparable to Royal navy tasks in Atlantic Ocean and they gained much experience during that period. Compared to other nations in region (China, South Korea, etc.) that realistically had costal defense navy’s Japanese naval expertise and sailor's seamanship is on much higher level… They may be inferior to Russians but JSDFM has clear advantage in equipment…

Regarding “drunken bum in Vladivostok” I agree that they are highly underestimated. Russian naval officers and sailors joust don’t have chance to show how good they are; and IMHO they are doing great job whit limited founds, limited salaries, aging and badly maintained ships etc. But whit all there expertise and experience Russian Pacific fleet joust can’t compete whit Japanese navy. Not whit so neglected fleet…

Best regards,
Isthvan

 

[contedicavour]

I wouldn’t underestimate Japanese sailor's seamanship and experience. While they have suffered from WWII loses and post WWII limitations you must remember that when JSDFM was formed they reenlisted former Imperial navy commanders. Basically they went true same process like post war German navy and I wouldn’t say that German navy lack experience or seamanship…
During cold war Japanese navy task in Pacific was quite comparable to Royal navy tasks in Atlantic Ocean and they gained much experience during that period. Compared to other nations in region (China, South Korea, etc.) that realistically had costal defense navy’s Japanese naval expertise and sailor's seamanship is on much higher level… They may be inferior to Russians but JSDFM has clear advantage in equipment…

Regarding “drunken bum in Vladivostok” I agree that they are highly underestimated. Russian naval officers and sailors joust don’t have chance to show how good they are; and IMHO they are doing great job whit limited founds, limited salaries, aging and badly maintained ships etc. But whit all there expertise and experience Russian Pacific fleet joust can’t compete whit Japanese navy. Not whit so neglected fleet…

Best regards,
Isthvan

I agree that the Japanese navy-SDF had ample training under cold war conditions, hunting Russian submarines, tracking Russian bombers on radar, trailing Russian spy ships, etc. The only areas of expertise that are lacking are offensive : cruise missiles and the sort.

Regarding Russian sailors' morale, with President Putin I think morale is going up again. Or I'll rephrase, at least the officers' morale is going up. The armed forces are again receiving increasing budgets and there is some prestige again around their role in a reborn nationalistic Russia. So I wouldn't underestimate what they could do if given a chance. At least with their operational ships and subs.

cheers

 

[Wooki]

Hi Wooki

I wouldn’t underestimate Japanese sailor's seamanship and experience. While they have suffered from WWII loses and post WWII limitations you must remember that when JSDFM was formed they reenlisted former Imperial navy commanders. Basically they went true same process like post war German navy and I wouldn’t say that German navy lack experience or seamanship…
During cold war Japanese navy task in Pacific was quite comparable to Royal navy tasks in Atlantic Ocean and they gained much experience during that period. Compared to other nations in region (China, South Korea, etc.) that realistically had costal defense navy’s Japanese naval expertise and sailor's seamanship is on much higher level… They may be inferior to Russians but JSDFM has clear advantage in equipment…

Regarding “drunken bum in Vladivostok” I agree that they are highly underestimated. Russian naval officers and sailors joust don’t have chance to show how good they are; and IMHO they are doing great job whit limited founds, limited salaries, aging and badly maintained ships etc. But whit all there expertise and experience Russian Pacific fleet joust can’t compete whit Japanese navy. Not whit so neglected fleet…

Best regards,
Isthvan

I wasn't underestimating their abilities, but perhaps I was being too harsh. Technology is great, but at sea, it invariably comes down to the person and what they are made of.

Also, I made an assumption... in that I have only worked with the highest paid individuals in the Japanese maritime community. The assumption is that talent follows the money and I could well be wrong.

got to go

cheers

w

 

[contedicavour]

I wasn't underestimating their abilities, but perhaps I was being too harsh. Technology is great, but at sea, it invariably comes down to the person and what they are made of.

Also, I made an assumption... in that I have only worked with the highest paid individuals in the Japanese maritime community. The assumption is that talent follows the money and I could well be wrong.

got to go

cheers

w

Well there's talent and then there are factors : pride, nationalist appeal, ideologies, a sort of benchmarking on the USN, technological expertise in universities, etc. What made USSR officers motivated wasn't money back then.

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Well, it depends whether you consider the air threat as higher or lower versus submarine threat. Given the quality of today's PLAN submarine force, I think the Japanese Navy-SDF can easily handle them with their own SSKs (18 kept operational, though another 3-4 are there in case of need). Given the increasing numbers of SU27/30 in the Chinese air force, and the fact that standoff weapons could be launched beyond the range of the Japanese SM2-III missiles, having a dozen F35Bs covering your fleet would be definitively more useful than 15-20 SH60s.

However the PLAN will continue to upgrade and improve its submarine forces, so this extra capability may be extremely useful in the future. Japan is going to be retiring its current helicopter-carrying destroyers in the near future, and these are going to be the only replacements. Anti-submarine helicopters provide a different kind of protection that attack submarines offer.

Also I'm not sure if air-cover is going to be as much of a problem as you suggest it might be. The MSDF is still a defensive force, so I can't see the circumstances in which it would need that sort of fighter screen. If it wants one, Japan will build a proper carrier as I said before, which might use these new ships as a baseline.

 

[contedicavour]

However the PLAN will continue to upgrade and improve its submarine forces, so this extra capability may be extremely useful in the future. Japan is going to be retiring its current helicopter-carrying destroyers in the near future, and these are going to be the only replacements. Anti-submarine helicopters provide a different kind of protection that attack submarines offer.

Also I'm not sure if air-cover is going to be as much of a problem as you suggest it might be. The MSDF is still a defensive force, so I can't see the circumstances in which it would need that sort of fighter screen. If it wants one, Japan will build a proper carrier as I said before, which might use these new ships as a baseline.

The scenarios in which Japan might need air cover beyond its land based F15s would be if the MSDF were cruising around disputed islands, of which there are plenty... if the MSDF is more than 200nm south of Okinawa then it might be happy to have a few F35Bs above it.
The moment Japan builds a large aircraft carrier, China would go crazy and immediately build a whole class of Varyag clones. Money wouldn't be a limit. So IMHO Japan will continue to act the least provocative way while at the same time improving its defences.
Furthermore, if the Constitution is further "adapted" as both contenders for Koizumi's post want, overseas missions will happen more and more often, and this time sending Coast Guard ships or just AORs won't be enough. Task forces with 1-2 Aegis DDGs, 1 CVH as the one we're discussing, plus 2-3 ASW DDGs, plus a couple of SSKs, would require some air cover.

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The scenarios in which Japan might need air cover beyond its land based F15s would be if the MSDF were cruising around disputed islands...

And China would launch an unprovoked attack upon a MSDF taskforce? If they did that, they'd be complete idiots. That would activate the US defence treaty and China would be doubly screwed over. Other countries would launch diplomatic protests, China might face embargoes, be cut off from technological exchanges, etc.

If China and Japan were at war, the MSDF wouldn't go wandering off without air cover into the PLAAF's range.

The moment Japan builds a large aircraft carrier, China would go crazy and immediately build a whole class of Varyag clones. Money wouldn't be a limit. So IMHO Japan will continue to act the least provocative way while at the same time improving its defences.

1. Japan could afford to run and operate more carriers than China.
2. I don't think China could run off "clones" of the Varyag that easily. It will take time to get its first one ready, and after that they won't come out that fast if they go for more.
3. China has already made it clear it wants to operate carriers. Varyag is the latest stage of this desire.
4. Japan would almost certainly let China build/adapt the first one, especially given that China is going down that road, as I pointed out above, so it won't need to wait that long.

China always complains Japan is acting "provocatively" in regards to its military, so that's irrelevant.

Furthermore, if the Constitution is further "adapted" as both contenders for Koizumi's post want, overseas missions will happen more and more often, and this time sending Coast Guard ships or just AORs won't be enough.

If Japan went on overseas missions, it would be part of a wider grouping of nations. It wouldn't go off by itself.

 

[contedicavour]

And China would launch an unprovoked attack upon a MSDF taskforce? If they did that, they'd be complete idiots. That would activate the US defence treaty and China would be doubly screwed over. Other countries would launch diplomatic protests, China might face embargoes, be cut off from technological exchanges, etc.



If China and Japan were at war, the MSDF wouldn't go wandering off without air cover into the PLAAF's range.



1. Japan could afford to run and operate more carriers than China.
2. I don't think China could run off "clones" of the Varyag that easily. It will take time to get its first one ready, and after that they won't come out that fast if they go for more.
3. China has already made it clear it wants to operate carriers. Varyag is the latest stage of this desire.
4. Japan would almost certainly let China build/adapt the first one, especially given that China is going down that road, as I pointed out above, so it won't need to wait that long.

China always complains Japan is acting "provocatively" in regards to its military, so that's irrelevant.



If Japan went on overseas missions, it would be part of a wider grouping of nations. It wouldn't go off by itself.

I wouldn't underestimate the potential for accidental clashes. The Han SSNs sometimes have navigational problems and end up close to the beaches of Okinawa (my oh my what a coincidence ). Suppose the crew panicks after being pursued by ASW DDGs, helos and P3C Orions. In no time you could find the JMSDF defending territorial claims on islands without F15J cover.

Regarding the thought that China would need much more time than Japan to build a carrier, I'd be cautious on that : (i) the Varyag would need engines and electronics refurbishing, but otherwise it can be made operational. Cloning its design takes less time than developing a new design and building it in Japanese shipyards... (ii) The Chinese may already have started training on air operations from similar-to-carrier flightdecks, and they are by now very familiar with navalized SU27s. Japan needs to buy an entirely new model, train its crews from 0... not easy to do that quickly.

Last but not least, if it turned to war, China wouldn't need carriers to attack Japan. Missiles would do the job. Japan would need to extend as far out as possible anti-missile assets. So some Kongo or improved Kongo DDGs might end up doing operations too far away from land bases, using SM2/3/6s as anti-ICBM/IRBMs. Sitting ducks if no air cover (again, because standoff missiles can be launched beyond the magical 167km range of SM2). True, the USN would be around, but the USN cannot be everywhere at the same time...

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Suppose the crew panicks after being pursued by ASW DDGs, helos and P3C Orions. In no time you could find the JMSDF defending territorial claims on islands without F15J cover.

If a Chinese submarine launched an attack on the MSDF, China would not escalate that conflict by then bombing Japanese ships as well.

Besides, and I'm a little confused here, why would Japan's territorial claims (i.e. the Senkakus) be out of range of the JASDF? They have squadrons based in Okinawa, a bit over 400km away. Why isn't that enough to protect the MSDF in that area?

True, the USN would be around, but the USN cannot be everywhere at the same time..

The USN always has carrier groups stationed in the region. Given the potential flashpoint of Taiwan that won't change for a long time.

 

[Waylander]

For sure the USN cannot be everywhere but with the 7th fleet stationed in Japan it is very likely that there are USN units near Japan.