t68
Well-Known Member
Don't think launching is the main problem that Stingray oz was referring too, bring back on recovery is the obstacle. The UK is going with SRVL not sure if the can on the smaller carriers
Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread
- Thread starter gf0012-aust
- Start date
Don't think launching is the main problem that Stingray oz was referring too, bring back on recovery is the obstacle. The UK is going with SRVL not sure if the can on the smaller carriers
SpazSinbad
Active Member
The RN/RAF F-35Bs will use the SRVL if it proves safe and also necessary - yet to be worked out in real SRVLs onboard in late 2018 rather than just in the simulator at moment. IF the SRVL proves effective it may not be used when a VL as per the KPP (Key Performance Parameter) requires a vertical landing to be performed with a full internal weapon load with sufficient fuel blah blah (I can dig out the exact wording and then interpretation of this KPP if required). This KPP is for a 'hot day' whereas the UK requires the KPP for VL to work on a UK 'very hot day'. (Again I can get the exact details if required.) In other words in general weather conditions the UK F-35Bs may just VL happily because it is convenient for overall deck operations aboard CVFs. AFAIK all this has not been decided - be patient grasshopper.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
Looked up some details - SAR KPP wording may be found in the SAR itself.The RN/RAF F-35Bs will use the SRVL if it proves safe and also necessary - yet to be worked out in real SRVLs onboard in late 2018 rather than just in the simulator at moment. IF the SRVL proves effective it may not be used when a VL as per the KPP (Key Performance Parameter) requires a vertical landing to be performed with a full internal weapon load with sufficient fuel blah blah (I can dig out the exact wording and then interpretation of this KPP if required). This KPP is for a 'hot day' whereas the UK requires the KPP for VL to work on a UK 'very hot day'. (Again I can get the exact details if required.) In other words in general weather conditions the UK F-35Bs may just VL happily because it is convenient for overall deck operations aboard CVFs. AFAIK all this has not been decided - be patient grasshopper.
‘UK Hot Day’ (essentially top end of the Persian Gulf in summer months).
US Mil Spec Hot day was 32.1C, 1013Mb [Tropical Day] — UK Hot Day 35.5C, 992Mb [East of Suez]
A Minor Note Concerning F-35B 'Bring Back' Weight 10 May 2013 SMSgt Mac
Elements Of Power: A Minor Note Concerning F-35B 'Bring Back' Weight
SCORECARD quote http://2011.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2011/05/18/36290792.pdf
"...must perform STOVL vertical landing with two 1000# JDAMs and two internal AIM-120s, full expendables, and fuel to fly the STOVL Recovery profile...." (actual KPP wording more or less the same)
There is a difference between can and do they want to.
I don't think the Japanese are really interested in a full strike carrier to drop bombs. If your going to do that, why would you do it from a tiny pocket carrier. You could launch them from US carriers, South Korean bases, US long range bombers, refuelled Japanese planes from Japanese bases, or using long ranged munitions or missiles. I think the concern is more about patrolling airspace and sensor coverage. Izumo is only ever going to have very limited capability if any. I would imagine the Japanese are very keen to improve awareness and response.
Allowing the JMSD to use a S Korean base will be politically difficult to pull off, not even with crisis at the North.
South Korea angers Japan with military drills near disputed islands
South Korea has begun a two-day military drill off the islands of Dokdo, as they are known in Korean, which are the subject of an ongoing territorial dispute with Japan, where they are known as Takeshima.
The exercise will involve various components of Seoul’s forces, such as the navy, the air force, the marine corps and the police, the South Korean navy said in a statement on Thursday.
“The Navy will conduct the regular Dokdo defense exercise aimed at preventing the infiltration of external forces into the South Korean territory in conjunction with a flotilla-level field exercise by the Navy’s First Fleet,” read the statement, quoted in the South Korean Yonhap news agency.
Keep up with this story and more by subscribing now
The navy said that warships, fighter jets and patrol aircraft are taking part in the exercise, which is conducted twice a year and is regularly met with protests from Japan. A senior official quoted in Japanese news agency Kyodo News called the exercise “unacceptable,” Yonhap reported. Similar phrasing was used in January to refer to a South Korean official’s visit to the islands, as Reuters reported.
12_28_Dokdo_Takeshima A police guard holds a rifle before a South Korean aircraft carrier with helicopters on board, on the remote islands known as Dokdo in Korea and Takeshima in Japan, in the Sea of Japan (East Sea), on August 10, 2012. South Korea began two-day military drills in the waters near these disputed islands on December 28. Dong-A Ilbo/AFP/Getty Images
Despite Japan and South Korea facing a common threat from North Korea and often conducting joint military exercises along with the U.S., the two countries have a history of distrust stemming from Japan’s colonization of the Korean Peninsula between 1910 and 1945.
The dispute over the islands is not the only source of friction between Japan and South Korea: The historical commemoration of the so-called comfort women, whom the Japanese military took from their colonies and forced into sex slavery during World War II, is another ongoing source of disagreement.
This week, South Korean officials called into question a controversial deal on Japanese reparations on the issue that was agreed upon by Japan and President Moon Jae-in’s predecessor, Park Geun-hye, in 2015.
Moon publicly criticized the deal as flawed in both “procedures and content” in a statement. “Along with the citizens, I, as president, make it clear again that the comfort women issue can’t be settled through the deal” read the statement, quoted in The Korea Herald. Japan warned any attempts to revise the deal would make ties between the two countries “unmanageable.”
Both the disputed islands and the comfort women controversies surfaced during the state dinner Moon hosted in honor of President Donald Trump when he visited South Korea as part of his five-country tour of Asia in November. Moon invited Lee Yong-soo, one of the women who was forced into sex slavery during World War II, to join the event; Trump was pictured hugging her. The dinner’s menu also featured prawns caught near the disputed islands by a fisherman who has since been inundated with orders, according to AFP.
The arrangements sparked anger from the Japanese. South Korea promptly rejected Tokyo’s protest, as Kyodo reported.
South Korea angers Japan with military drills near disputed islands
South Korea has begun a two-day military drill off the islands of Dokdo, as they are known in Korean, which are the subject of an ongoing territorial dispute with Japan, where they are known as Takeshima.
The exercise will involve various components of Seoul’s forces, such as the navy, the air force, the marine corps and the police, the South Korean navy said in a statement on Thursday.
“The Navy will conduct the regular Dokdo defense exercise aimed at preventing the infiltration of external forces into the South Korean territory in conjunction with a flotilla-level field exercise by the Navy’s First Fleet,” read the statement, quoted in the South Korean Yonhap news agency.
Keep up with this story and more by subscribing now
The navy said that warships, fighter jets and patrol aircraft are taking part in the exercise, which is conducted twice a year and is regularly met with protests from Japan. A senior official quoted in Japanese news agency Kyodo News called the exercise “unacceptable,” Yonhap reported. Similar phrasing was used in January to refer to a South Korean official’s visit to the islands, as Reuters reported.
12_28_Dokdo_Takeshima A police guard holds a rifle before a South Korean aircraft carrier with helicopters on board, on the remote islands known as Dokdo in Korea and Takeshima in Japan, in the Sea of Japan (East Sea), on August 10, 2012. South Korea began two-day military drills in the waters near these disputed islands on December 28. Dong-A Ilbo/AFP/Getty Images
Despite Japan and South Korea facing a common threat from North Korea and often conducting joint military exercises along with the U.S., the two countries have a history of distrust stemming from Japan’s colonization of the Korean Peninsula between 1910 and 1945.
The dispute over the islands is not the only source of friction between Japan and South Korea: The historical commemoration of the so-called comfort women, whom the Japanese military took from their colonies and forced into sex slavery during World War II, is another ongoing source of disagreement.
This week, South Korean officials called into question a controversial deal on Japanese reparations on the issue that was agreed upon by Japan and President Moon Jae-in’s predecessor, Park Geun-hye, in 2015.
Moon publicly criticized the deal as flawed in both “procedures and content” in a statement. “Along with the citizens, I, as president, make it clear again that the comfort women issue can’t be settled through the deal” read the statement, quoted in The Korea Herald. Japan warned any attempts to revise the deal would make ties between the two countries “unmanageable.”
Both the disputed islands and the comfort women controversies surfaced during the state dinner Moon hosted in honor of President Donald Trump when he visited South Korea as part of his five-country tour of Asia in November. Moon invited Lee Yong-soo, one of the women who was forced into sex slavery during World War II, to join the event; Trump was pictured hugging her. The dinner’s menu also featured prawns caught near the disputed islands by a fisherman who has since been inundated with orders, according to AFP.
The arrangements sparked anger from the Japanese. South Korea promptly rejected Tokyo’s protest, as Kyodo reported.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
I'll assume you are familiar with the intended 'conversion' of CVF to 'cats/flaps' (so called by a sad newspaperperson). One would be MAD to convert an AXIAL Helo Deck into an AXIAL landing CTOL deck without having an angle deck installed (as one sees in the USN and French aircraft carriers). Am I on the right track? Angle deck it is?
Then arrestor gear has to be able to arrest the intended aircraft without breaking the aircraft / & / OR breaking the arrestor gear (without having to redesign current available arrestor gear - including AAG Advanced Arrestor Gear - I guess). We already know the approximate length of the axial deck, then do some math with an angle deck centerline of some 9 degrees perhaps to arrive at the length of the planned flight deck.
Add some catapults: are they steam or EMALS? How is the energy generated for either choice. OK so no catapults but a ski jump? That will impact the take off weight of intended aircraft and perhaps interfere with efficient recovery/take off operations. There is a lot to think about but you can make choices. Then think: why bother.
Make a new aircraft carrier from scratch to solve all the issues with a conventional naval aircraft of your choosing. Steel is cheap I'm told. Modifying existing steel is not so cheap. I'm not forgetting topweight issues with an angled deck sitting on an axial deck designed hull either. But typing words is easy enough - changing an IZUMO for CTOL carrier ops will not be so easy.
Then arrestor gear has to be able to arrest the intended aircraft without breaking the aircraft / & / OR breaking the arrestor gear (without having to redesign current available arrestor gear - including AAG Advanced Arrestor Gear - I guess). We already know the approximate length of the axial deck, then do some math with an angle deck centerline of some 9 degrees perhaps to arrive at the length of the planned flight deck.
Add some catapults: are they steam or EMALS? How is the energy generated for either choice. OK so no catapults but a ski jump? That will impact the take off weight of intended aircraft and perhaps interfere with efficient recovery/take off operations. There is a lot to think about but you can make choices. Then think: why bother.
Make a new aircraft carrier from scratch to solve all the issues with a conventional naval aircraft of your choosing. Steel is cheap I'm told. Modifying existing steel is not so cheap. I'm not forgetting topweight issues with an angled deck sitting on an axial deck designed hull either. But typing words is easy enough - changing an IZUMO for CTOL carrier ops will not be so easy.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
As defence cuts continue to be announced by the U.K. Government one has to wonder whether Prince of Wales will be mothballed or is it secretly being shopped around?
t68
Well-Known Member
if it is being shopped around my money would be on QE going as it yet to be modified to accept RM, but if the LPD do go they wont lose any carriers because can you imagine the headlines
According to the agreement signed at the time, the issue was settled in 1965. Japan apologised & gave money for the women to the South Korean government. That deal was negotiated by Park Geun-hye's father, who was president. Her hypocrisy in pushing for a new deal was breathtaking. It's uncertain what the money was used for, but the women don't seem to have got much....The historical commemoration of the so-called comfort women, whom the Japanese military took from their colonies and forced into sex slavery during World War II, is another ongoing source of disagreement.
This week, South Korean officials called into question a controversial deal on Japanese reparations on the issue that was agreed upon by Japan and President Moon Jae-in’s predecessor, Park Geun-hye, in 2015.
Moon publicly criticized the deal as flawed in both “procedures and content” in a statement. “Along with the citizens, I, as president, make it clear again that the comfort women issue can’t be settled through the deal” read the statement, quoted in The Korea Herald. Japan warned any attempts to revise the deal would make ties between the two countries “unmanageable.”...
It's not an issue that can be discussed openly or honestly in Korea.
What cuts have been announced by the government? Unofficial reports refer to internal discussion papers.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Yes, unofficial, as they are leaked internal reports. Nevertheless they are disturbing, even if they are being intentionally leaked to test public opinion as they are probably what the government is considering trying to get away with.
Looks like Japan is one step closer to operating fixed wing aircraft off its Izumo class "destroyers"
Izumo-class destroyers deemed fit to carry F-35B aircraft, if remodeled
The ship was deemed to fit to carry F-35B with some remodelling.
There seems to be a certain inevitability that Japan will once again start operating proper fixed wing capable aircraft carriers ... possibly sooner rather than later.
Izumo-class destroyers deemed fit to carry F-35B aircraft, if remodeled
The ship was deemed to fit to carry F-35B with some remodelling.
There seems to be a certain inevitability that Japan will once again start operating proper fixed wing capable aircraft carriers ... possibly sooner rather than later.
FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
I believe that's reading a bit to much into the article, and yet not reading the end.
If you're not conducting aircraft maintenance aboard ship, you're operating more as a FARP, or a "lily pad', not as a "proper fixed wing capable aircraft carrier(s)"
Whatever the Izumo Class can or cannot do re the F35B they are at least asking the question.
No doubt this question will be repeated in other Navy's as the F35B roles out into service with existing customers.
What answer Japan and other countries decide upon, time will tell; but I would be very surprised if the F35B is limited to the USA, UK and Italy.
Regards S
The major issue is the price of the machine, even if a nation would want it a lot of them could not afford it, even worst is that the majority of the pocket carriers aren’t able to handle the F-35B for example the recoat that the Italian Navy is making for the Cavour is really expensive as a work, more than that there is also the need to add structural support to the deck.
Something that nations like Spain isn’t doing such works for its LHD, neither Australia and probably Turkey will but spanish LHD without this work.
So there are already 3 possible customers that won’t buy the F-35B
I actually did read to the end ... but I find it hard to believe that Japan would spend all that money and effort just to use their ship as a lily pad. That they still call these ships destroyers shows that they are not above a little subterfuge.
On the otherhand it has been over 70 years since the Japanese have operated a proper aircraft carrier so it might take some time to relearn all those skills. Plus it might be that the Izumo just isn't big enough to be an effective carrier. It only has hanger space for around 10 F-35s and will be dwarfed by the new Chinese carriers.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Nice profile of the new Japanese multi-mission frigate (30DX?0 from MHI, via the excellent Navy Recognition website.
Also somewhat taken with the Zodiac interceptor, which straps 4 350-horse outboards onto the back of an inflatable. Would certainly speed up transit times to favourite fishing spots!