Japan gearing up to acquire F-35 fighters

[exported_kiwi]

I will be very surprised if Japan acquires any other model than the F-35a.
so Japan has no need for F-35b's as any F-35 they acquire will be land based.

If China starts to acquire carriers of some sort, I can see Japan embarking F35Bs due to the traditional enmity between the 2 nations. Maybe even Sth Korea would do the same as well.

Sorry, was unaware crusader 2000 kinda said the same thing.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I thought they had already chosen Typhoon as an F-4 replacement, not sure how many of those birds will still be airworthy by the time the F-35 is available in large numbers.

No, they'd said that the Typhoon was the most preferable plane over the F-22. No formal decision had been made.

Given Japan was always going to buy F-35s the only question remaining is whether it will buy something else to cover the long gap between an order and delivery (Japan being at the back of a long line and all that).

 

[swerve]

This whole idea that Japan is not interested in Aircraft Carriers is respectfully laughable....nfloorl:

Non sequitor. What is being argued is not that Japan is not interested in carriers, but that the current & publicly planned ships are not carriers. Hyuga & Ise certainly aren't, & nor is the proposed 22 DDH, unless it's very different from how it's officially described. And it's proposed (not approved), at a time when the government is trying to cut spending.

So far, the interest is just that - interest. There are no concrete plans.

 

[Crusader2000]

I think the point is, "ambitions" aside the vessels you have sighted are not carriers. They may be technically capable of deploying a few STOVL fast movers, but they are NOT dedicated carriers. GF has pretty clearly explained the difference.

So, I guess the HMS Invincible Class Through-Deck Cruisers are not Carriers either? If, they are not Carriers. Is the INS Viraat not a Carrier also??? Sorry, you lost me sometime ago!


Regardless, they're Air Capable (Carriers) in the respect they can operate aircraft. That being Helicopters or STOVL Types. Further, Japan has designed and build successfully bigger and larger ships as time goes on. From the Oosumi LSD's to the 16DDH's to the forthcoming 22DDH.


Further, I have never said that any of those types are pure Conventional Aircraft Carriers. But, stepping stones to the real thing.

Clearly, the 16DDH (Hyuga) is not ideal as a STOVL Carrier. Yet, the larger 22DDH's may or at very least provide a platform to develop STOVL Aircraft Operations.


The follow on to the 22DDH is likely to be a true Carrier. At least something that you define as a "Carrier". I think???

 

[swerve]

Not only is Hyuga not ideal as a carrier, her details (such as her bow) show that there is no intention of using her as one. It would need some rebuilding before it would be practical for a STOVL fighter to take off over it - & I don't mean only the lack of a ski-jump.

Whereas Invincible, Viraat, etc. were either built or rebuilt as carriers, & have spent most of their careers as dedicated fixed-wing carriers. Unless Hyuga receives such a rebuild, she can't do the job at all. Even with a rebuild, she'd be a worse carrier than the slightly smaller Principe de Asturias, because she's not been designed primarily for the role, as PdA was.

 

[Crusader2000]

Non sequitor. What is being argued is not that Japan is not interested in carriers, but that the current & publicly planned ships are not carriers. Hyuga & Ise certainly aren't, & nor is the proposed 22 DDH, unless it's very different from how it's officially described. And it's proposed (not approved), at a time when the government is trying to cut spending.

So far, the interest is just that - interest. There are no concrete plans.

I agree that nothing is official. Yet, that hardly means that Japan does not have a plan. As it obviously does...........with the progression of the Oosumi Class, Hyuga Class, and 22DDH.

Clearly, the Japanese Government has been very cautious in developing Air Capable Ships. (i.e. Carriers) As not to stir up public protests from the far left.

So, its taken a very gradual process of developing larger and more capable ships every class.

Let's not forget the Hyuga Class is called Helicopter Carrying Destroyers! Plus, they always down play the number of aircraft it can carry! (i.e. three small Seahawks and one Sea Stallion) PLEASE

 

[Bonza]

edit: not worth it.

 

[the road runner]

I am under the impression that Japan is not able to have fixed wing Aircraft carriers......

Japans Constitution,imposed by the USA after WW2,permits Japan only to have a self defence force.Japan is only able to have defensive weapons.

As an Aircraft Carrier is considered to be an ofensive weapon,would Japan have to change its constitution to allow for this to occur???......

Thats my understanding,please correect me if my info is wrong........

Regards

 

[JonMusser]

Not sure what an Air Craft Carrier has to do with the Air Force but i would say on the idea of Japan buying the F-35 i vaugly remember that japan its self was developing a Stealth Fighter and that it would operate the new f15 f35 Euro fighter until there home grown stealth was ready but with f35 back log both planes would fly around same time.
Mitsubishi ATD-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Crusader2000]

I am under the impression that Japan is not able to have fixed wing Aircraft carriers......

Japans Constitution,imposed by the USA after WW2,permits Japan only to have a self defence force.Japan is only able to have defensive weapons.

As an Aircraft Carrier is considered to be an offensive weapon,would Japan have to change its constitution to allow for this to occur???......

Thats my understanding,please correect me if my info is wrong........

Regards

Its my understand that there is nothing in the Japanese Constitution that prohibits Japan from Operating Aircraft Carriers. Though, some sources claim that she can't have Offensive Carriers. That said, I have never read the Japanese Constitution so I can't state either categorically.

 

[Crusader2000]

Not only is Hyuga not ideal as a carrier, her details (such as her bow) show that there is no intention of using her as one. It would need some rebuilding before it would be practical for a STOVL fighter to take off over it - & I don't mean only the lack of a ski-jump.

Whereas Invincible, Viraat, etc. were either built or rebuilt as carriers, & have spent most of their careers as dedicated fixed-wing carriers. Unless Hyuga receives such a rebuild, she can't do the job at all. Even with a rebuild, she'd be a worse carrier than the slightly smaller Principe de Asturias, because she's not been designed primarily for the role, as PdA was.

As I have stated before I see the Hyuga as a stepping stone to a Conventional Aircraft Carrier. That said, while it is unlikely that the Japanese would operate F-35's from the Hyuga on a regular basis. She could operate in the role of a test bed to develop STOVL Flight Operations.


As for the 22DDH it could operate in a similar role or as a STOVL Carrier like the Invincible Class. Just to little information is available to make such a leap. Regardless, both are stepping stones until a true Carrier becomes available. Likely, sometime after 2020.........IMHO

 

[the road runner]

Its my understand that there is nothing in the Japanese Constitution that prohibits Japan from Operating Aircraft Carriers. Though, some sources claim that she can't have Offensive Carriers. That said, I have never read the Japanese Constitution so I can't state either categorically.

Its known as Pacifist document ....Article 9,its all i could find on the net

ICL - Japan Index

ICL - Japan - Constitution

Article 9
(1) Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
(2) In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of aggression of the state will not be recognized.

says nothing about aircraft carrier,but my japanese mate swears they are not aloud to purchase fixed wing aircraft carriers.

Something to do with the part japan played in WW2 pacific theater

Regards

 

[Marc 1]

I am under the impression that Japan is not able to have fixed wing Aircraft carriers......

Japans Constitution,imposed by the USA after WW2,permits Japan only to have a self defence force.Japan is only able to have defensive weapons.

As an Aircraft Carrier is considered to be an ofensive weapon,would Japan have to change its constitution to allow for this to occur???......

Thats my understanding,please correect me if my info is wrong........

Regards

Many countries have been urging Japan to take a more committed role in operations overseas. Under the constitution draw up after WWII that mean self defence only (hense the service titles) and that indigenous designs were often knobbled so that they could not be used offensively (Kawasaki C-1, 1300km range!). However this has lead to the farce in recent times where Japanese engineers were deployed to Iraq or Afg and had to be protected by Aussie soldiers.

This is one of the reasons that the SDF is being dropped and the Japanese are being encouraged to have a conventional defence force that is without the earlier limitations. The C-1 replacement the C-X can take 37 tonnes 5,600km (quite decent aircraft too - A-400 sized... If Kawasaki were to launch an export derivative in competition with the troubled A400...)

Politics all from memory - if anyone has anything more accurate, feel free to correct this.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

So, I guess the HMS Invincible Class Through-Deck Cruisers are not Carriers either? If, they are not Carriers. Is the INS Viraat not a Carrier also??? Sorry, you lost me sometime ago!


Regardless, they're Air Capable (Carriers) in the respect they can operate aircraft. That being Helicopters or STOVL Types. Further, Japan has designed and build successfully bigger and larger ships as time goes on. From the Oosumi LSD's to the 16DDH's to the forthcoming 22DDH.


Further, I have never said that any of those types are pure Conventional Aircraft Carriers. But, stepping stones to the real thing.

Clearly, the 16DDH (Hyuga) is not ideal as a STOVL Carrier. Yet, the larger 22DDH's may or at very least provide a platform to develop STOVL Aircraft Operations.


The follow on to the 22DDH is likely to be a true Carrier. At least something that you define as a "Carrier". I think???

The distinction between this vessel and the Invincible (or any other carrier designed to operate fixed wing aviation) has been outlined already. Again, refer to GF's earlier post.

 

[Crusader2000]

edit: not worth it.

Well, I think we are talking past each other.



Personally, I am happy to concede that the Japanese have not publicly stated that its going to build a Conventional Aircraft Carrier or that STOVL Aircraft will operate from the Hyuga. (BTW China did not officially admit that it even had a Carrier Program until recently. Yet, everybody knew!)



As I have stated over and over again. The Japanese have expressed strong interest in Aircraft Carriers for decades. Which, can be supported by many sources. Further, I expressed the clear path Japan is taking with the development of "Air Capable" Ships. From the Shirane/Haruna Class DDH's, Oosumi Class LSD's, Hyuga Class DDH"s and now the 22DDH's This lastest DDH is approximately the same size and shape. As such Ski Jump equipped Carriers like the HMS Invincible Class and INS Cavour. While, it may or may not be used in a similar role as the former two. It could at very least be used as a platform to develop STOVL Flight Operations.


So, from my perspective I got tired of going around and around. If, a member believes that Japan has no Carrier Ambitions and does not plan on building a Conventional Carrier in the near future. Then just say so and quit trying to side step the issue.......

 

[Crusader2000]

The distinction between this vessel and the Invincible (or any other carrier designed to operate fixed wing aviation) has been outlined already. Again, refer to GF's earlier post.

What source do you have on the 22DDH's to make such a claim?????

 

[Crusader2000]

Its known as Pacifist document ....Article 9,its all i could find on the net

ICL - Japan Index

ICL - Japan - Constitution

Article 9
(1) Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.
(2) In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of aggression of the state will not be recognized.

says nothing about aircraft carrier,but my japanese mate swears they are not aloud to purchase fixed wing aircraft carriers.

Something to do with the part japan played in WW2 pacific theater

Regards

Japan is steadily moving away from its Post-WWII Pacifist Past. Remember, just a decade or so ago. It would have been unbelieveable for Japan to deploy Troops Oversea and Ships Half way around the World. Let alone build a Ship that looks and is very much like an Aircraft Carrier.

The Japanese have learn that small steps over time is the way to go. So, to not to up-set the public..............In short take your time and let everybody slowly get use to the idea. VERY SMART

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

What source do you have on the 22DDH's to make such a claim?????

*sigh* For the third time refer to GF's earlier post. Here I’ll do it for you:

They're not fixed wing combat carriers either.

1. 1 The decks aren't treated or designed for hot exhaust systems (STOL/STOVL)
2. 2 The bunkerage isn't designed for fixed wing combat aircraft
3. 3 The lifts are in the wrong locations for sustained fixed wing combat air
4. 4 The lifts have to be rated to carry fixed wing combat air (see 3)
5. 5 The lift dimensions have to meet the specs to carry fixed wing combat air. (see 3)

having a flat deck does not make a fixed wing combat aircraft "aircraft carrier" designed for proper combat roles.

 

[Crusader2000]

*sigh* For the third time refer to GF's earlier post. Here I’ll do it for you:

Sorry, virtually no information has been made public about the specific design of the 22DDH. All we know for sure is it will be ~248m long and have a light displacement of 19,500 tons. (some quote 22.500 tons) Regardless, I don't see how anyone could make claims about its particularly features. Unless they have a source that provides more details of the design. (Highly unlikely from the Japanese at this Stage!)


That said, I would be happy to concide the point. If, a reliable source is provided........


BTW "sigh"

 

[Bonza]

Sorry, virtually no information has been made public about the specific design of the 22DDH. All we know for sure is it will be ~248m long and have a light displacement of 19,500 tons. (some quote 22.500 tons) Regardless, I don't see how anyone could make claims about its particularly features. Unless they have a source that provides more details of the design. (Highly unlikely from the Japanese at this Stage!)

And yet, in post #9, you yourself stated:

Which, means the Japanese 22DDH is slightly larger (very slightly) and its was design from the outset to operate F-35B's.

Clearly if no information has been made public, it's a bit premature for you to be stating it was designed specifically to operate fixed wing aircraft. So what's the story? One rule for you, and another rule for everyone else?