Isreali Tech transfers

[TrangleC]

Ok, if you say so. Then i misunderstood you and overreacted.
Maybe i'm over sensible when it comes to that.
But you have to agree that in the context of our obvious disagreement, that rather sounds like a admonition than like a expression of respect.

I want to make clear that i'm really not anti semitic and i meant it when i said that i support the israeli wish and need for a own state and the right to defend it. And i also am no conspiracy theory fan. The things i said about the pro-israely lobby in the USA just seems to be obvious to me, from all i know about the american political system.
I don't even mean "the jews" with the pro-israely lobby. There are conservative christian powers who influence the US gouvernemt into supporting Israel too, because they don't want the "holy land" to be under muslim controll.
And it isn't even only some half secret lobbyists who make it crucial to american politicians to appear to be pro-israel. It is the general public opinion of the majority of american voters. They just are pro-israel. Some just because they are contra-arab, or contra-muslim.

Anyway, i'm still pretty sure that it is rather internal politics that makes the USA support Israel than real foreign political advantages of having this ally. No matter how much of that comes from lobbys or from the general public opinion in the States.

I'm really sure that Israel is just the biggest issue among arabs and that they simply never would have had a reason to ally with the sovjets if they wouldn't have wanted to get rid of Israel.
That means that measuring the worth of Israel to the USA by how much of a counter part to the sovjet influence in that region it was, makes not much sense because Israel was the only reason for that sovjet influence in the first place.

The americans would have had it much easier to influence the arabs and to controll the oil rich regions there if they wouldn't have had to deal with their loss of credibility among arabs by being the "big satan" that supports the "little satan" Israel. Therefor, from a foreign policy point of view, Israel was rather a obstacle and a problem to the americans than a help or advantage.
Still it was important enough to bare all those problems, but only for reasons of internal politics.

I really don't see how you can decline this theory, since it is so clear what Israel means to the arabs. Not to the elites who arranged themselves with reality and with the american dominance of the region. Hell, they didn't arrange with it, they depend on it. All of those allied arab countries would lynch their dictators and have islamistic revolutions if the corrupt leaders wouldn't be backed by the USA.
Is there really any doubt about that?

Whenever one of those islamistic radicals wants to get his share of followers and power too, he just has to yell "death to Israel!" and the masses are with him. Not only in the Middle East, but all the way to Pakistan and even muslim regions in the Pacific.
Clearly Israel is the biggest issue between the West and the muslim world. Without Israel it even would be much harder for the islamic extremists to recrute new terrorists.
I really can't understand how you can not see that Israel is not of any real use to the americans, but rather a problem that is worth to be bared, but still a problem.

And back to the start of our discussion:
This strong pro-israel public opinion and lobby work in the USA is why the Israelis can afford to be a unruly ally from time to time without having to fear the consequences.
How far do you think a annoyed american gouvernment could really go in "punishing" Israel for anything they have done? Seriously.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

mate the same could be said for every conflict zone on earth in the 70's and 80's. Just look at angola, somalia and afghanistan. there was no room for expansion in europe so both sides where trying whever they could. So much for detaunt. So every side in a conflict in any obscure corner of the earth were were calling themselves communists or anti communist to get the free arms and funding that came with the name. And the fact that the US recognised Isreal when it was founded ment that the arab states were allways going to be in the soviet camp. Given this atmosphere can you see the soviets not taking an opportunity to expand their influence? I dont think so. So Isreal was an effective counter ballance for the west, scince the line had been drawn in the sand when isreal was created. And just because there wouldn't have been a line if Isreal didn't exist doesn't mean that they didn't contain soviet influence in reality.

And i've got to say that the jewish lobby theory is crap. My brother's been harping on about it all day. Sure there is a powerfull jewish influence in U.S. politics but i cant see Georgie having his foregin policy dictated to him. Remember that there's a massive amout of Saudi investment in the US and in the Bush family in particular. You dont think that the interests of these two might conflict? Making a few gestures and publically and supporting Isrealie policy to influence the Jewish vote is one thing but making critical foregin policy decisions, involving leaking of US tech to potential adversaries by a so called "staunch ally" is another.

By the way Triangle C, i know this is compleatly off topic but, is there a heap of sensitivity in germany concerning WW2? Every german i've spoken too (and thats not many in person) doesnt have an interest in that part of their history . Every book i read about the war in europe is written by a brit or a yank and i've never seen one by a german author, and i'd love to get a german perspective, especially on german commanders. I know there going to be pretty rare in Aus but do you know any decent german historians that focus on WW2?

 

[TrangleC]

mate the same could be said for every conflict zone on earth in the 70's and 80's. Just look at angola, somalia and afghanistan. there was no room for expansion in europe so both sides where trying whever they could. So much for detaunt. So every side in a conflict in any obscure corner of the earth were were calling themselves communists or anti communist to get the free arms and funding that came with the name. And the fact that the US recognised Isreal when it was founded ment that the arab states were allways going to be in the soviet camp. Given this atmosphere can you see the soviets not taking an opportunity to expand their influence? I dont think so. So Isreal was an effective counter ballance for the west, scince the line had been drawn in the sand when isreal was created. And just because there wouldn't have been a line if Isreal didn't exist doesn't mean that they didn't contain soviet influence in reality.

But how should they expand their influence whenthe people they want to influence have no reason to listen to them?
In reality the arab flirt with communism was rather short and not very intense, you must admit.
The only really communist or at least socialist thing in the Middle East have been the israely Kibbuz (or however that is spelled) camps.
You said it youself in the first half of that paragraph that the sovjets were just welcomed arms suppliers.
I go further and say they were nothing more than that to the arabs.

What kind of sovjet influence in the Middle East should that have been without the israel-problem?

This allies just had nothing in common. The arabs didn't really want communism and pretty soon switched to nationalism. Just look at Saddam Hussein's barth party (again i have no clue how to spell that, sorry). They startet as a socialist party but became a nationalistic pan-arabian movement in no time with the only thing reminding of communism being the stalinistic character of the regime they founded in Iraq.

And i've got to say that the jewish lobby theory is crap. My brother's been harping on about it all day. Sure there is a powerfull jewish influence in U.S. politics but i cant see Georgie having his foregin policy dictated to him. Remember that there's a massive amout of Saudi investment in the US and in the Bush family in particular. You dont think that the interests of these two might conflict? Making a few gestures and publically and supporting Isrealie policy to influence the Jewish vote is one thing but making critical foregin policy decisions, involving leaking of US tech to potential adversaries by a so called "staunch ally" is another.

I already pointed out that this is not a conspiracy theory about some rich and powerful jewis pupetmasters or something like that.
It is the whole public opinion in the States that would never allow the USA to abandon or punish Israel.

As long as nobody can come up with a credible reason why the arabs should have been fallen to communism in a paralell reality in which there was no Israel, i'm still convinced that the actual worth of Israel to the USA is purely one of internal politics. Because you wouldn't have needed a western ally in the Middle East to counter sovjet influence.
And by the way, even without Israel and a magical, unlogical sovjet influence on Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan coming out of the blue, there still would be Saudi Arabia, the former close western allys of Iran and Iraq, NATO member Turkey and all those little but rich emirates on the western side. Even without Israel that would have given a pretty clear inbalance in the west's favour.

This is clearly no weird theory of mine, but you can clearly see in actual real history that the arabs only did turn to the siovjets when they felt that they needes an ally against Israel and the USA. And they wouldn't have had beef with the USA without Israel.
That is absolutely clear and a fact.
The sovjet influence was only a problem with Israels neighbours and only after the founding of Israel.
None of the other arab countries that didn't feel provoced or threatened by Israel or the USA ever allied with the sovjets.
Only later, when becoming an enemy of the USA, Iran and Iraq bought weapons from the USSR, but totally without adapting any political ideas from the sovjets either.
Just as Iran still does buy stuff from Russia now, without being under russian influence in any way that goes further than the normal dependence of an customer and a supplier.

By the way Triangle C, i know this is compleatly off topic but, is there a heap of sensitivity in germany concerning WW2? Every german i've spoken too (and thats not many in person) doesnt have an interest in that part of their history . Every book i read about the war in europe is written by a brit or a yank and i've never seen one by a german author, and i'd love to get a german perspective, especially on german commanders. I know there going to be pretty rare in Aus but do you know any decent german historians that focus on WW2?

lol
That really is hilarious. Don't get me wrong, i'm not meaning that sarcastic or ironic or anything, i'm really and honestly laughing my ass off here.
:jump2

Phew... where to start?

Actually, mate, there hardly is any other topic here in Germany, believe it or not.
I'm pretty sure not to exaggerate when i say that at least 50% of all books written and published in Germany are about the Nazis, the Holocaust and WW2.
As a student in a german school, you learn about one year about ancient times (roman empire aso.) in history lessons, one year about medieval times and the rest of your 9 to 13 years of school career you get hammered with Nazis, Holocaust and WW2.
Even the president of the jewis community in Germany just recently complained that they are overdoing it on german schools and he's afraid that so extremely much moral bashing and "look at that! don't do something like that!"-education might be rather counter productive by annoying the kids.

There also was a controvesy about elementary school teachers taking kids from first and second grade classes into the movie "Shindler's List" as a field trip. And it wasn't the parents of german kids who complained about that, but the muslim imigrants who thought watching such a movie might be inapropiate for 6 year olds.
German parents would never have said something, because of being afraid to be suspected of being anti semitic.
That just to give you a little impression of the athmosphere of denial (that was meant ironic) that is ruling Germany.

A english engineer that i know and that lives in Germany for 4 years now once said to me that he really get's depressed here because whole Germany seems like some kind of giant Holocaust spooky ride in a amusement park. He said you can't turn your head without seeing advertisement for a new Anne Frank theater play or musical or a "the crimes of the Nazis"-exibition.
And you can't turn on the TV without seeing at least 2 of the 40 stations broadcasting a documentation about WW2 and the Holocaust or about Hitler and his bunch at any time of the day, 7 days a week.

When you grow up like this, it doesn't appear that odd to you, but foreigners coming to Germany often mention being astonished about that.

If there are no german books about this to be found in australian bookstores, that is because they don't get translated and that is not the fault of the german authors who seem to be really eager to drown Germany in books about this subject.

I'm really not joking or exaggerating here. You can ask every german or even better (because you will surely rather believe them) a foreigner who knows Germany about that.

Discussions about german WW2 commanders with germans will be rather unsatisfying, i wager. Because all we learn about them in school is that they fought on the wrong side and have blood on their hands because they allowed Hitler to do what he did.
The only positive things about german WW2 commanders i have learned, i got from foreigners telling me this things on the internet.

And in general, Germany is that extremely pacifistic nowadays that everything military, no matter whether Nazi or allied forces is considered something inmoral, dirty, childish and primitive.

I know there going to be pretty rare in Aus but do you know any decent german historians that focus on WW2?

Um, that is as if i would ask you whether you know any Australians who drink a lot of beer. Hard to point out one. He he he.
But if you really are interested, i could see what names i can find.

 

[webmaster]

Back to Isreali Tech transfers please!

 

[merocaine]

There was no insult believe me, i was aluding to what you said about touching a hot iron for a german to be critical of Israel.

Saudi arabia is strongly supportive of US Policy, to the excent that they have troops there.
Jordan another US allie
Egypt another US allie
Yeman a US Allie
there all arabs dude.

now Being an Israeli allie has not undermined american relations with those countrys. The educated elites of those countries all have there children educated in america, money invested there ect. They see america as there protector as much as Israel does.

On the street its another matter, those countries see america supporting there own corropt leaders and Israel witch is occupying arab land.
America best move would to stop supporting leaders which oppress there own people and to try and bring about a real final settlement in the mid east.

America policy over the Leb is a desaster, a combination of a weak minded President and a ideological forigen policy. This would not have happened under clinton or Bush senior.

The moment the arabs would cut of americas oil you would see a change in american policy to the area, the fact is most arab countries leaders find israel useful to them, it destracts the people from there real wants.

I think the most important thing to realise when you look at this is the arabs dont have any real unity on the palistinan issue, a lot of them are in competion with each other as much as with Israel.

The other thing is the Americans do control the oil(the main stratgic price) in the middle east, with or without Israel, the oil is'ent at stake.

I know it sounds like i'm down playing the role of Israel in american domestic politics, I know its incredibly important to sound pro israeli, but I just dont think that translates straight into a pro israeli policy, i believe theres much more to it than that.

How many American politians would get elected if they were anti irish?
I'll tell yeah a big fat zero. Doesent mean we can infulence american policy.

Iran is a diferent kettle of fish, there quell with america started in the 50's, and then with the Shah, Israel came later.

This strong pro-israel public opinion and lobby work in the USA is why the Israelis can afford to be a unruly ally from time to time without having to fear the consequences.
How far do you think a annoyed american gouvernment could really go in "punishing" Israel for anything they have done? Seriously.

If Isreal started a war aganst Saudi or Jordan or Egypt they would be pissed off and it would be over before it began. If Israel started threathing its neighbours with nuclear weapons, sold top of the line awac's to china. Stopped buying american arms, I think those would all be situations where America would step in and say thanks and good night, your on your own.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

But the fact that the US initialy supported Isreal, and i admit that may have been largely due to internal politics, meant that they could not arm themselves with western weapons to destroy isreal. So weather they were commies or not they were still going to be kissing Krustev and Breshnev's ass, who were only too happy to have an redy made enemy of the west to sell arms too. And granted this by itself didn't mean that the soviets had influense, the egyptians did kick out all of its soviet advisors, but but if you look at soviet actions during the Suez cricis, threatening brittan and france with a possible nuclear strike to defend their arab allies, and the fact that during their manny wars with Isreal that the supply of arms could be cut off at any time, leaving them stranded if they wanted to keep at it, shows that the soviets really did have influence. So if isreal wast there then it probably wouldn't be needed as a counterweight to soviet influence, but this doesnt mean that after it was created that soviet influence in the area didnt need to be curtailed and that without internal US political pressure it would have been easier to abandon isreal and the soviets would have just gone away. Most of the conflics in the 70's and 80's were fought in similar circumstances and after they were over there really wasn't much to do with the communist/anti communist crusade, but the superpowers still needed to pick a side.

As for the Jewish lobby i agree it is a powerfull force in US politics. But enabling Isreal to act with impunity is a fair streatch. My bro thinks that this whole lebanon thing was pre planned by the americans and that the US is draging its feet to apeease the powerfull jewish oligarchy thats behins the scenes. i know conspiracy freak, (i'm not saying you think like this TC). But a powerfull lobby doesnt mean that a nation can sell vital US tech to poterntalil adversaries and how ever pissed off the white house is they cant do sh*t because they'll loose the Jewish vote. For me, thats a bit mutch.

 

[ali.uaf]

I'm not a conspiracy freak or anything like this and what i'm saying is not just my own opinion, but i learned it from many tv reports, documentations and articles about the subject.
This counterbalance-thing is crap too, sorry for the language but since you used that word too.
Do you think the arab states would have run into the arms of the Sovjet Union, which followed a doctrine of supressing and demonizing religion all together and has treatet muslims in their own territory like shit for a century, if they wouldn't have needed an ally against Israel and the USA?
They didn't really like the sovjets, but that was their only possible ally and arms provider against Israel.
Muslims in the Middle East pretty much accepted even the british colonial power. Not totally, of course, but compared to other regions or Ireland for example.... pretty much so. This region was rather calm and the arabs didn't freak out and make that region the domain of crisis it is today before the israelis did take Jerusalem.

So saying Israel is needed as a counterpart on sovjet influence is like saying it is good to be run over by an ambulance because that way the paramedics don't need so long to arrive.

Like i said, i support the israeli's right to be there and have their own state, but without a doubt we wouldn't hear from the Middle East in the news so often if there wouldn't be a Israel.

I know that it is touching a hot iron to say that as a german, but it is just a fact that without Israel the arabs wouldn't have turnet towards the Sovjet Union and so nobody in the USA would need a counter part in that region, because without much of a doubt the arabs would have chosen to be allies of the USA if they would have had the free choice between the two options.
There would never have been an sovjet ally in the region without the arab anger towards Israel.

dats right i completely agree wid yyou , its only the internal politics which pushes USA to support Isreal , well as i have contact within USA armyy my frds in there do agree that the actual policy dont come from whit house rather it the Pentagon which actually controls the issue in the longer run well i dont hav n e prove for it but its the wider perspective within US army

and i do think dat it's a fact as no matter Democrate or Republican are in power support for Isreal will always be there because of strong jews presence in USA ....

any how thats a well known fact that USA did used Isreal to cunter sum of hostil arab states as well as Russia in cold war ..... but for how long USA will ignore its own startegic intrests and will continue to support Isreal on the cost of spreading hatred in arab states and paricularly with in Islamic community ....

there is one more point i wana mention that with the rise of China well we know China is't strong enugh to match USA or rather will not be in next 20 years but certainly there will be another block to headed by China to start threating American dominace in the Middle East particularly as China is one oil thirsty nation ....

so the chnaging scenarios perhaps will push American to change the policyy or other wise GOD us ...........

 

[watchman]

Israel tech transfer

Israel can't afford to loose US support if they started giving away US technology the US would quite quickly cut them off at the knees and the Israelis need the US much much more, if anything the close relationship costs the US internationally anyway, do you think the US like a picture of an obviously US developed or given weapon, Apache, F16 or even the Merkava which to the untrained looks like a M1 being used in operations where collateral damage is hardly worried about. Im not taking sides here at all but Israel must be careful espescially as the US mainly ignores there Nuke weapon status.

Israel should not bite the hand that feeds their military. Without U.S. help, the Arabs could have conquered them a long time ago. Secondly China & Russia are selling weapons to hostile countries. It would be very unwise to Israel to help countires that may one day use the weapons against them.

 

[SATAN]

Israel should not bite the hand that feeds their military. Without U.S. help, the Arabs could have conquered them a long time ago. Secondly China & Russia are selling weapons to hostile countries. It would be very unwise to Israel to help countires that may one day use the weapons against them.

Dude, Israeli Tech is now one of the best in the world. Their Missile systems are being sold to the E.U and U.S. Their UAVs have been inducted into the Turkish ,Chinese, Indonesian militaries. Also Israel along with USA and UK is a leader in Nano Technology.

 

[Waylander]

That changes nothing on the fact that Israel would have a huge deficit without the foreign financial help much more worse than their balance sheet is even now.
Not to talk of the spares for all their US related equipment.

 

[icelord]

Agreed, the Israelis may be able to make their own Tech which is a world leader, but it still needs US Finance and US support in building them, some of their Tech they make is built with the help of US Scientists.

 

[SATAN]

That changes nothing on the fact that Israel would have a huge deficit without the foreign financial help much more worse than their balance sheet is even now.
Not to talk of the spares for all their US related equipment.

Well of course it doesnt. It is an open secret that Israel recieves over $10 billion of US Taxpayers money annually. Their American weapons are also free/subsidized.It is a state/entity overly dependent on Foreign assistance.

But that doesnt change the fact that it is now a major player in the world High Tech arms market. All those years of weapons research and development and a LOT of American/European help paid off.

 

[Big-E]

Well of course it doesnt. It is an open secret that Israel recieves over $10 billion of US Taxpayers money annually. Their American weapons are also free/subsidized.

Lies... all of it

Your propadaganda is so full of it my colon looks like an amateur.

 

[merocaine]

Lies... all of it

Your propadaganda is so full of it my colon looks like an amateur

thats right, they got about 2 billion tops, and pretty much had to spend it on US systems, Columbia took over a couple of years ago as the biggest resipient of US aid.

 

[SATAN]

thats right, they got about 2 billion tops, and pretty much had to spend it on US systems, Columbia took over a couple of years ago as the biggest resipient of US aid.

Got any links to support your stories? Israel is the Biggest recipient of US AID. With Loans ,Grants and Aid....the total comes out closer to the $7 to $10 Billion range annually.And please stick to the topic, No need for moronic self comparisons as posted by some clown in an earlier thread.

The second biggest recipient of US AID is Egypt.

The Aid to Columbia is mostly assistance in the fight against Drugs. We recently gave them a few more Black Hawks to support the war on drug lords.

 

[SATAN]

There, This should put an end to the discussion. Lets move on and discuss the actual topic about Israeli Tech.


http://www.wrmea.com/us_aid_to_israel/index.htm


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html


http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=753&CategoryId=4

 

[Big-E]

There, This should put an end to the discussion. Lets move on and discuss the actual topic about Israeli Tech.


http://www.wrmea.com/us_aid_to_israel/index.htm

Average spending equals 1.5 billion a year... not 10... your sources

Lets move on and discuss the actual topic about Israeli Tech.

My thread isn't about just Israeli Tech... it is about tech transfers. Do you have anything to add to this subject or are you just going to spread Anti-Semetic propoganda?

 

[Patzek]

Well, I wont get involve in the debate about the money Israel get from the US simply because I do not have the time right now.

But i'll just post this, if you'll please take a look
http://www.masada2000.org/israel-stats.html I know its a pretty childish site but this is what i've found.

( more in the list at http://www.masada2000.org/More-Facts-Israel.html ).

 

[rrrtx]

Limitations/restrictions on tech exports

I am curious about the guidelines used by Israel when exporting defense technology. I see few restrictions with tech sometimes sold to opposing sides or even predominantly Islamic countries.

For example - Lavi tech to China used to develop the J-10 while simultaneously selling anti-ship and if memory serves air-to-air missles to Taiwan.

There is large scale cooperation with Turkey including fighter upgrades, tank upgrades etc.

Israel also worked with apartheid era South Africa in a variety of areas - Kfir tech to upgrade SA Mirages, anti-ship missiles, and the Galil derived R4 come to mind.

I think Russia, China, and France have rightly become more notorious for exporting arms indiscriminately in recent years but I was curious about Israel especially given the previously discussed implication of it's ties to the US.

 

[Big-E]

I am curious about the guidelines used by Israel when exporting defense technology. I see few restrictions with tech sometimes sold to opposing sides or even predominantly Islamic countries.

I am as well. I had heard of a certain Israeli company that has developed upgrades for the Mig-29 to SMT standard. They are catering to our adversaries... hmmm