Isreali Tech transfers
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From the World Tribune
China has developed its own version of the Patriot anti-missile system, according to a Chinese-owned Hong Kong newspaper.
The ground-to-air guided missile system is part of China's air shield that is similar to U.S. Patriot missiles, the March 29 Wen Wei Po reported.
China covertly obtained Patriot anti-missile system technology from Israel during the 1990s, according to U.S. officials.
U.S. intelligence agencies discovered the Israel-China Patriot technology transfer in March 1993.
The transfers came from U.S.-made Patriots sent to Israel to counter Iraqi missile attacks during the Persian Gulf war.
The report described the system's command and control system, vehicles and interceptors.
In 1993, then-CIA Director Robert Gates told The Washington Times, “There is some indication that they [the Chinese] have some of the technology.”
try this link http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/001493.html
be careful who arm is the moral of this story
China has developed its own version of the Patriot anti-missile system, according to a Chinese-owned Hong Kong newspaper.
The ground-to-air guided missile system is part of China's air shield that is similar to U.S. Patriot missiles, the March 29 Wen Wei Po reported.
China covertly obtained Patriot anti-missile system technology from Israel during the 1990s, according to U.S. officials.
U.S. intelligence agencies discovered the Israel-China Patriot technology transfer in March 1993.
The transfers came from U.S.-made Patriots sent to Israel to counter Iraqi missile attacks during the Persian Gulf war.
The report described the system's command and control system, vehicles and interceptors.
In 1993, then-CIA Director Robert Gates told The Washington Times, “There is some indication that they [the Chinese] have some of the technology.”
try this link http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/001493.html
be careful who arm is the moral of this story
Lavi looks more like an F-16 with Mirage wings.. although the plane never went in serial production because of US financial pressures on Israel, it is argued that the information from Lavi project finally made its way into China and helped design the J-10..
I wonder why Americans who are so senstive where their taxes are spent, dont talk too much about it when Israel leaks out so much information..
Perhaps someone is not telling the whole story to them...
P.S. I am in favour of the tech transfer tho, since some of that tech, which would never be available to us, has also made its way into my country thanks to Israel..
I wonder why Americans who are so senstive where their taxes are spent, dont talk too much about it when Israel leaks out so much information..
Perhaps someone is not telling the whole story to them...
P.S. I am in favour of the tech transfer tho, since some of that tech, which would never be available to us, has also made its way into my country thanks to Israel..
I think they get mighty pissed off at israel, Clinton torpedoed that phalcon deal once they got wind of it.
Israel is to important to them in the middle east to make it to public though.
And i guess the israelies could always threaten to divesify out of US gear if the US tried to lean too hard on israel.
Catch 22 :laugh
Israel is to important to them in the middle east to make it to public though.
And i guess the israelies could always threaten to divesify out of US gear if the US tried to lean too hard on israel.
Catch 22 :laugh
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Easy does it
Israel can't afford to loose US support if they started giving away US technology the US would quite quickly cut them off at the knees and the Israelis need the US much much more, if anything the close relationship costs the US internationally anyway, do you think the US like a picture of an obviously US developed or given weapon, Apache, F16 or even the Merkava which to the untrained looks like a M1 being used in operations where collateral damage is hardly worried about. Im not taking sides here at all but Israel must be careful espescially as the US mainly ignores there Nuke weapon status.merocaine said:
Do you think ministries of defence give a dame about a few Pal civilians? What they see is deadly accurate missle strikes in urban enviroments, this is an excellent advertisment for american hardware.
Israel for sure depends on the US, but it has built up a large domestic arms industry, top of the range to, this insulates them from a certain amount of pressure. Plus with there american military aid they buy american hardware, this keeps americans in work. Pressure is a two way street.
the israelies have a certain amount of leverage too.
I'm not taking sides either, but the israelies play their hand beautifully.
During the 6 days war the french cut off military supplies to israel, (france was the biggest weapons supplier to israel) in an atempt to stop the hostilties. Israel took note and began to buy american, as well as ramping up domestic production, to the point that they have one of the most advanced militarys in the world. They are not immune to pressure, as the attempted Phalcon sale showed but they do push at the boundries
Israel for sure depends on the US, but it has built up a large domestic arms industry, top of the range to, this insulates them from a certain amount of pressure. Plus with there american military aid they buy american hardware, this keeps americans in work. Pressure is a two way street.
the israelies have a certain amount of leverage too.
I'm not taking sides either, but the israelies play their hand beautifully.
During the 6 days war the french cut off military supplies to israel, (france was the biggest weapons supplier to israel) in an atempt to stop the hostilties. Israel took note and began to buy american, as well as ramping up domestic production, to the point that they have one of the most advanced militarys in the world. They are not immune to pressure, as the attempted Phalcon sale showed but they do push at the boundries
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Ill give you that
given an excellent example of nation building. Gosh, imagine trying to recreate there progress, if Iraq did half as well theyd think of where theyd be in 25 years.
Im with you there, Israel is good at hedging its bets, and has through supportmerocaine said:
given an excellent example of nation building. Gosh, imagine trying to recreate there progress, if Iraq did half as well theyd think of where theyd be in 25 years.
anyone interested in israeli lora missile check out this link:
http://www.defense-update.com/products/l/lora.htm
this missile has been selected by the indian army as opposed to the russian iskandar-e.
LORA Surface Attack Missile
IAI / MLM
LORA follows a relatively simple three elements design, comprising a warhead in the fore section, propulsion unit, including the solid fuel rocket motor with a nozzle. The nozzle is encircled by the navigation, flight control and guidance unit, which includes the integrated avionic guidance and flight control section, cruciform tail control surfaces, actuators, related antennas and connectors. This simple and modular design contributes to very reliable operation and simple logistics, since all necessary activities can be handled by the avionic unit. The missile's weighs 1.6-1.8 tons, depending on warhead used. Its length is about 5 m'. and the diameter is 610 mm. LORA is stored in a dedicated sealed canister with shelf life of seven years without maintenance. Since it's dimensions are larger than the MLRS it requires a special infrastructure. The missile uses an integrated GPS/INS system, used to rapidly establish launch position, without preliminary ground survey and site preparation. The system also determines the exact position of the missile, relative to the target, throughout the flight, enabling flexible maneuvering, maintaining optimal flight path and shaping the terminal effect according to the mission requirements.
While IAI is exposing LORA at Eurosatory 2006 exhibition, the system has already been proven in several tests, including a launch from a ship deck. The program is funded by several customers and IAI is expecting more clients to join the program as it picks momentum. IAI is offering the missile as a weapon system capable of engaging strategic targets deep in the enemy's territory, from mobile or maritime platforms. Typical targets are fixed or transportable including infrastructure assets (communications, power stations) and surface to air missiles (SAM) batteries, particularly those that cannot rapidly change location. With an accuracy of less than 10 meters, equal or better to that of an aerial guided weapon (such as a 1,000 pound JDAM), LORA can eliminate such targets without warning and without risking an expensive aircraft. The missile can be equipped with a 400 kilogram high explosive warhead or with a 600 kg penetration warhead, to hit hardened targets. The missile can be programmed to hit the target at high angle of attack, of up to 70 degrees, which, together with the high impact speed, maximizes the penetration effect and damage. The missile can perform pre-programmed manoeuvres after launch and after re-entry, to conceal its launch point and intended target, thus preventing the enemy from taking defensive measures or attempting to intercept the missile or launcher.
These capabilities make LORA a weapon of deterrence, which can be susceptible to enemy pre-emptive strike. To survive such threat, LORA has several "built-in" advantages. The missile can be used in two configurations – transportable and maritime. Each concept of operation has its advantages. The transportable version has a minimal visual and electromagnetic signature and a small footprint. It can be easily transported and hidden in areas out of enemy reach. The missile can be launched within few minutes, from unprepared positions. In fact, any target whose location is known within the range of the missile can be attacked within less than ten minutes from the launch decision. As for the maritime version – the LORA can be launched from "blue water", well beyond the reach of enemy's coastal defenses. The LORA uses a shaped trajectory flight mode. This feature also contributes to LORA's immunity to most enemy defenses, including Anti Tactical Ballistic Missile defense systems designed to hit subsonic missiles. It is also immune to electronic warfare (EW) and GPS countermeasures.
A ship borne version of the LORA will include: missiles stored in sealed canisters and a missile control center, located at the combat information center (CIC) of the ship. The missiles are launched in an oblique trajectory, which directs the hot gases to the side of the ship, eliminating damage to systems located on the deck.
http://www.defense-update.com/products/l/lora.htm
this missile has been selected by the indian army as opposed to the russian iskandar-e.
LORA Surface Attack Missile
IAI / MLM
LORA follows a relatively simple three elements design, comprising a warhead in the fore section, propulsion unit, including the solid fuel rocket motor with a nozzle. The nozzle is encircled by the navigation, flight control and guidance unit, which includes the integrated avionic guidance and flight control section, cruciform tail control surfaces, actuators, related antennas and connectors. This simple and modular design contributes to very reliable operation and simple logistics, since all necessary activities can be handled by the avionic unit. The missile's weighs 1.6-1.8 tons, depending on warhead used. Its length is about 5 m'. and the diameter is 610 mm. LORA is stored in a dedicated sealed canister with shelf life of seven years without maintenance. Since it's dimensions are larger than the MLRS it requires a special infrastructure. The missile uses an integrated GPS/INS system, used to rapidly establish launch position, without preliminary ground survey and site preparation. The system also determines the exact position of the missile, relative to the target, throughout the flight, enabling flexible maneuvering, maintaining optimal flight path and shaping the terminal effect according to the mission requirements.
These capabilities make LORA a weapon of deterrence, which can be susceptible to enemy pre-emptive strike. To survive such threat, LORA has several "built-in" advantages. The missile can be used in two configurations – transportable and maritime. Each concept of operation has its advantages. The transportable version has a minimal visual and electromagnetic signature and a small footprint. It can be easily transported and hidden in areas out of enemy reach. The missile can be launched within few minutes, from unprepared positions. In fact, any target whose location is known within the range of the missile can be attacked within less than ten minutes from the launch decision. As for the maritime version – the LORA can be launched from "blue water", well beyond the reach of enemy's coastal defenses. The LORA uses a shaped trajectory flight mode. This feature also contributes to LORA's immunity to most enemy defenses, including Anti Tactical Ballistic Missile defense systems designed to hit subsonic missiles. It is also immune to electronic warfare (EW) and GPS countermeasures.
A ship borne version of the LORA will include: missiles stored in sealed canisters and a missile control center, located at the combat information center (CIC) of the ship. The missiles are launched in an oblique trajectory, which directs the hot gases to the side of the ship, eliminating damage to systems located on the deck.
The impact point of one of the LORA missiles fired into the Mediterranean sea, showing the accurate hit, within 10 meters from the designated aimpoint. The floating circled points are location markers designated the target's triangle.
Israel could do much more without ever losing US support. It is not a real and genuine interest into the existance and wealth of that little troublesome state that made the USA support them like this for decades, it is the power of the jewish community within the USA. When the USA helps Israel it doesn't do so because the White House cares for Israel, but because it cares for the jewish voters in the USA. And that is why Israel knows that it can affort to piss off the americans from time to time without consequences.robsta83 said:
I wager many people in the US political elites would be rather happy if Israel wouldn't be in the way when it comes to relations with much more important allies like the oil rich arabian states. But the internal political power of Israel's supporters in the USA is still bigger than the global strategical interests of the USA.
Don't get me wrong. I think the israelis have a right for their own state and they just need that suport by a superpower to keep it. There is nothing wrong with that. But it is still a fact that there hardly is something like real "friendship" among countries and there are always other reasons for having allies.
And by the way, the Merkava has pretty little in common with the M1 and other western MBTs and is a 100% israeli product.
I'm sorry dude thats crap. Israel proforms a number of real stratgic roles for the US. During the cold war when the US really got involved middle east, it did'ent treat Israel as a favored allie until the soviet Union started to back the arab states. It used Israel as a counter weight to soviet infulence. That had nothing to do a jewish lobby. Israel also prevents Iraq Syria Cario dominating any of the major Arab oil producers, by its very presenece it causes syria to split its forces.
It sits right beside the Suez Canal also.
Just because some noecons in the white house bang on about Isreal being the only democrasy in the middle east, doesent mean the US can't be hard headed when it comes to stragic desisions.
Sure there a Jewish lobby, but that doesent mean they dictate US policy.
I'm not a conspiracy freak or anything like this and what i'm saying is not just my own opinion, but i learned it from many tv reports, documentations and articles about the subject.
This counterbalance-thing is crap too, sorry for the language but since you used that word too.
Do you think the arab states would have run into the arms of the Sovjet Union, which followed a doctrine of supressing and demonizing religion all together and has treatet muslims in their own territory like shit for a century, if they wouldn't have needed an ally against Israel and the USA?
They didn't really like the sovjets, but that was their only possible ally and arms provider against Israel.
Muslims in the Middle East pretty much accepted even the british colonial power. Not totally, of course, but compared to other regions or Ireland for example.... pretty much so. This region was rather calm and the arabs didn't freak out and make that region the domain of crisis it is today before the israelis did take Jerusalem.
So saying Israel is needed as a counterpart on sovjet influence is like saying it is good to be run over by an ambulance because that way the paramedics don't need so long to arrive.
Like i said, i support the israeli's right to be there and have their own state, but without a doubt we wouldn't hear from the Middle East in the news so often if there wouldn't be a Israel.
I know that it is touching a hot iron to say that as a german, but it is just a fact that without Israel the arabs wouldn't have turnet towards the Sovjet Union and so nobody in the USA would need a counter part in that region, because without much of a doubt the arabs would have chosen to be allies of the USA if they would have had the free choice between the two options.
There would never have been an sovjet ally in the region without the arab anger towards Israel.
This counterbalance-thing is crap too, sorry for the language but since you used that word too.
Do you think the arab states would have run into the arms of the Sovjet Union, which followed a doctrine of supressing and demonizing religion all together and has treatet muslims in their own territory like shit for a century, if they wouldn't have needed an ally against Israel and the USA?
They didn't really like the sovjets, but that was their only possible ally and arms provider against Israel.
Muslims in the Middle East pretty much accepted even the british colonial power. Not totally, of course, but compared to other regions or Ireland for example.... pretty much so. This region was rather calm and the arabs didn't freak out and make that region the domain of crisis it is today before the israelis did take Jerusalem.
So saying Israel is needed as a counterpart on sovjet influence is like saying it is good to be run over by an ambulance because that way the paramedics don't need so long to arrive.
Like i said, i support the israeli's right to be there and have their own state, but without a doubt we wouldn't hear from the Middle East in the news so often if there wouldn't be a Israel.
I know that it is touching a hot iron to say that as a german, but it is just a fact that without Israel the arabs wouldn't have turnet towards the Sovjet Union and so nobody in the USA would need a counter part in that region, because without much of a doubt the arabs would have chosen to be allies of the USA if they would have had the free choice between the two options.
There would never have been an sovjet ally in the region without the arab anger towards Israel.
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OK ok deep breaths,
I agree Israel is basicily a european state surrounded by arabs, and in most achidemics eyes its sitting on land that was once legally owned by arabs. That is pretty much a even as far as I am concerned. But I dont believe Jewish americans run or even greatly influence american forigen policy.
I also believe that Israel is a very useful american allie for the Americans. America also sells tanks and jets to saudi and Cario, who's TV stations spew out mindless anti semetic crap all the time. Cario is one free election from a fundementalist state, if Israel had that much infulence do you not think they could have prevented those sales?
About the soviets, Israel was supported by the French to a much greater degree
until the 6 days war, when the french denied resupply to the Israelies to try and stop the war, Israel turned to the americans.
The US was all ears as Nasser, although he did'ent trust the Soviets, was getting hugh amounts of aid and weapons. Israel was a way to counter balance soviet influence.
At the end of the day the soviets were forced out of ejypet in the 70's and Cario made a seperate peace with the Israelies.
That was realpolitic in action. The US and the Israelies have been best mates since, but that doesent mean the relationship is not baced on real stratigic fundementals. Even today the US will bitch slap Israel when they think there getting out of Line in there relationship with the chinese.
The British face a series of arab revolts from Palistine to iraq to yemen before they got out, so i dont know where your getting this happy colonials idea.
If you want to blame someone blame the british and the arbitary way they divided the middle east up. Iraq is a good example to start with, it should never have been a country in the first place, it is a crisses, always has been one and that has nothing to do with Israel.
Personally it takes a lot of guts to stick your neck out like that as german, so respect.
I agree Israel is basicily a european state surrounded by arabs, and in most achidemics eyes its sitting on land that was once legally owned by arabs. That is pretty much a even as far as I am concerned. But I dont believe Jewish americans run or even greatly influence american forigen policy.
I also believe that Israel is a very useful american allie for the Americans. America also sells tanks and jets to saudi and Cario, who's TV stations spew out mindless anti semetic crap all the time. Cario is one free election from a fundementalist state, if Israel had that much infulence do you not think they could have prevented those sales?
About the soviets, Israel was supported by the French to a much greater degree
until the 6 days war, when the french denied resupply to the Israelies to try and stop the war, Israel turned to the americans.
The US was all ears as Nasser, although he did'ent trust the Soviets, was getting hugh amounts of aid and weapons. Israel was a way to counter balance soviet influence.
At the end of the day the soviets were forced out of ejypet in the 70's and Cario made a seperate peace with the Israelies.
That was realpolitic in action. The US and the Israelies have been best mates since, but that doesent mean the relationship is not baced on real stratigic fundementals. Even today the US will bitch slap Israel when they think there getting out of Line in there relationship with the chinese.
The British face a series of arab revolts from Palistine to iraq to yemen before they got out, so i dont know where your getting this happy colonials idea.
If you want to blame someone blame the british and the arbitary way they divided the middle east up. Iraq is a good example to start with, it should never have been a country in the first place, it is a crisses, always has been one and that has nothing to do with Israel.
Personally it takes a lot of guts to stick your neck out like that as german, so respect.
All you have to do is watching the election reports on CNN or other american news stations during a presidential election.merocaine said:
I'm pretty sure you will hear things like:
"Florida surely goes to candidate A because he is known to be a especially strong supporter of Israel...."
Just ask an american about that. I'd be pretty surprised if he would share your a bit naive opinion on that matter.
This is not a conspiracy theory, it is a well known and accepted every day political fact in the USA.
The supporters of Israel are not the only group doing a strong lobby work, by far. They are just one of that groups that determine US policy by directing votes.
If there would have been a few million more arab voters than jewish in the USA during the last decades, don't you think the policy of the USA might have looked a bit different?
Assuming that would be rather naive.
Yes, and in what way does that contradict or disprove the things i said? It rather confirms them, because it shows that the americans would have been happy to leave the support of Israel to somebody else (becaus ethey knew that it would be rather counter productive on a larger, global scale) and only assumed the role of the big brother when there was nobody else to do it.
I talked about that in my last post and you didn't say anything yet that would be a reason to change my mind.
I'm not talking about the end of the day, but about the morning of that day.
That might be the misunderstanding between us, because frankly it doesn't really seem as if you would have understood the things i wrote in my last posting.
Like i said, there wouldn't have been any sovjet influence in the Middle East without the arabs being so desperate to get rid of Israel.
Ask an arab about this. What else reasons should they have had to ally with a regime that so thoroughly opposes everything the people in that region traditionally hold dear?
The arab mentality clearly has much more in common with the USA than with the Sovjets. Israel has pretty much been the only thing standing between the arabs and the USA becoming best buddies.
lol
I'm not blaming anybody. I just don't care who kills whom there. I wouldn't care what the Israelis do with Libanon or how much the Iranians hate the Israels and vice versa. I'm just taking part in a theoretical and hopefully logical discussion about a matter of recent actuality.
Being german doesn't mean i can't see political connections and it doesn't prevent me from talking about what i see - especially since i never thought much about this things untill i started to chat with americans, israelis and arabs through the internet.
I know that cheap trick of hammering down a discussion you are about to lose by calling the other a Nazi thoroughly, mate, and i'm not intimidated by it anymore.
That only discredits you, not me.
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where did that come from!!!!
when did i call you a nazi????
Rubbish, the only time you hear that is when there giving a speech to the jewish american community and looking for votes, how does that relate to forigen policy desisions taken at a high level?
I want some conceret examples of the jewish lobby effecting forigen policy, before i believe anything.
you should check out some of Noam Chomsky musings on the jewish american lobby, quite suprising for a well known critic of american forgien policy.
Talking to people on the internet, and watch TV documentrys is no substiute to studing History that has been peer reviewed. But then dont listen to me, you wont anyway.
again where the hell did that come from!!!
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