Israel's Trophy System Now or U.S. Raytheon System in 2011?

[PommeDeGuerre]

And how informed are you?
Where is your proove that i am wrong?
Why do i always have to rummage through the net and through history books to bring up facts and examples? It's no use anyway, as you can see in this example:

None of that is evidence that the government conspires with corporations to funnel money by endangering soldiers. I don't recall hearing anything about Bush's grandfather being connected to the Nazi's, but even if he was guilt doesn't transfer from one generation to the next; it's not relevant.

Now why don't you prove me wrong for a change, instead of just going "give me prove!" and when i do, just ignoring it, as it seems common on this board?

The burden of proof *always* lies with the accuser. I don't have to prove the government is innocent any more than you have to prove you're innocent during random searches of your house by the police.

I'm done with this discussion.

 

[Waylander]

Guilt doesn't transfer from one generation to another?
That's not what it looks like when many people all around the world talk about germany and its past.

 

[.pt]

Waylander,

I don´t think anyone who is informed, will pin the past on younger generations, in Germanys case. People and the media will ocasionally play that speech, but as time goes by, less and less. What matters is what you, as a people have done to correct that and make sure it won´t happen again. Also, from the little i know of your country, it seems to me, that Germany, is finally giving the first steps to have a more active role on world and European politics, specially those with some kind of military role involved,such as peace keeping roles.
The past is buried, let it rest in peace.
.pt

 

[Waylander]

Nice post.
I hope more people begin to think like you.

But I apologize for being off-topic.
Now back to Trophy.

 

[PommeDeGuerre]

Guilt doesn't transfer from one generation to another?
That's not what it looks like when many people all around the world talk about germany and its past.

Actually I considered using that as an example... perhaps I should've said, "shouldn't transfer"

 

[radiosilence]

looks like the army decided to wait for the Raytheon system


Army says Israeli-made anti-RPG weapon unproven

By Kristin Roberts

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army weapons buyer on Friday said an Israeli system billed as capable of knocking down rocket-propelled grenades has not been proven, and so will not be purchased and deployed to soldiers on the ground.


Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, deputy for acquisition and systems management to the assistant secretary of the Army, rejected a recent report by NBC News that the Army blocked a plan to buy the Israeli system called Trophy because it would hurt the Army's push to build a completely new system.

While Trophy has moved through testing stages already, the new system being built by Raytheon Co. under a $70 million contract will start to roll out in fiscal 2010 at the earliest.

Sorenson, however, said Trophy is both not ready and does not meet Army requirements. He said no existing system to defend against rocket-propelled grenades meets requirements.

"We do not want to put something out there that gives the soldiers a false sense of security," Sorenson told reporters. "We will not put anything out there that we have not seen as demonstrated to be capable of doing what it's alleged to do."

More than 2,500 U.S. service members have died in Iraq. Attacks involving rocket-propelled grenades have killed more than 100 soldiers, far less than the number killed by roadside bombs, Sorenson said.

The system being built by Raytheon is part of the Army's Future Combat System modernization program, projected to cost an inflation-adjusted $161 billion over the next two decades. It is intended to use advanced communications to link troops with a family of 18 light, fast, manned and unmanned air and ground vehicles.

Raytheon's weapon to protect against rocket-propelled grenades would be incorporated onto those vehicles.

Sorenson said that while Trophy may be available sooner than Raytheon's system, it was not designed to fit requirements of the Future Combat System. He also said the Army had other concerns about Trophy, such as unintended damage created.

Trophy was developed by Rafael, the Israel Armament Development Authority. A spokesman for Rafael was not immediately available.

A spokesman for the Senate Armed Services Committee did not immediately respond to a query about whether the panel was investigating the Army's contract decision

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060908...wQa.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

 

[icelord]

Major General Jeffrey Sorenson deputy for acquisition and systems management to the assistant secretary of the Army,

thats a Mouth full, does he have a card or sign for it.
Hmm, should i be synacle and put Maj. Gen. sorenson in the Raytheon corner
Of course everyone will have different views, for some strange reason i think an Israeli General would see differently....or would they?

 

[Waylander]

There is no system out there which is able to meet the requirements?

Did they look at the new Diehl demonstrator?
It is also not ready now but it could be operated a little bit earlier than the Raytheon system.
"07/21/2006



Diehl's Vehicle Protection System Tested Successfully



In the presence of high-ranking representatives of the Federal Ministry of Defence, the Bundeswehr as well as international armed forces, Diehl BGT Defence´s AWiSS active protection system successfully defeated a rapidly approaching MILAN anti-tank missile.

The autonomously operating demonstrator system, deployed on a Leopard 2 main battle tank, was able to automatically detect the threat in time, to precisely track the missile and to neutralize it through controlled ignition of a fragmentation grenade. The remaining fragments as well as the MILAN´s shaped charge no longer posed any danger to the battle tank.

The trial performed at the test range of the Federal Office´s of Defense Technology and Pro-curement technical agency 91 in Meppen in June demonstrated the successful combination of sensors, battle management computer and directed launcher as the main components of AWiSS. The test represents an important milestone in the development of active systems for enhanced vehicle self-protection. Next to battle tanks, potential applications include particularly military and special vehicles equipped with basic protection against mines, explosives and small calibre projectiles. In this category AWiSS provides additional protection against widespread rocket-propelled grenades and modern missiles. Due to its rapid reaction time, AWiSS is also suited for operation in urban terrain occurring frequently in today´s international missions. AWiSS offers 360° comprehensive protection and is capable of engaging ballistic projectiles as well.

In view of today´s state of activities, currently funded by an R&T-contract of the Federal Office of Defense Technology and Procurement, the AWiSS system could be available on the market in two to three years ensuring enhanced protection of vehicle and crew."

Source: http://www.diehl-bgt-defence.de/index.php?id=545L=http://busca.uol.com.br/uol/index.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=573&tx_ttnews[backPid]=538&cHash=578994150b&L=1

 

[icelord]

was able to automatically detect the threat in time, to precisely track the missile and to neutralize it through controlled ignition of a fragmentation grenade. The remaining fragments as well as the MILAN´s shaped charge no longer posed any danger to the battle tank.

Great for the crew, not so great for the poor bastard standing in line at an Iraqi market.

 

[Waylander]

Do you really think that soldiers are so inflexible?
If you are in the middle of a crowd or market you turn it off.
If you are on a patrol with not many people around you have it ready.
Not to talk of operations like the US had to do in Fahjulla (How is it written?) or the IDF had to do in Lebanon.
And the TUSK upgrade included ERA modules. It does not look like the US Army is so much worried about surrounding people.

 

[radiosilence]

the major requirement for the new system was to be compatible with the army's future combat system aside from being a capable system.the Raytheon system is part of the army's future combat system and Trophy was not designed to fit the requirements for the future combat system. also, it doesn't hurt to have a domestic system.

 

[Waylander]

What makes a foreign system incomatible to the new FCS?

 

[icelord]

What makes a foreign system incomatible to the new FCS?

Beuraucracy

 

[Waylander]

Hehe.
Maybe also a little bit pride.

 

[.pt]

That diehl system looks good. those "international armed forces" would likely be European partners. Any Us Army representative?
That test relates to a MILAN missile, wich is much more of a threat than an rpg i think. But missiles/rocket grenades launched very near the target might be able to ilude it?
What about cost?
Any news of intent to aply this on German Leos?
.pt

 

[Waylander]

I've got no more infos than are in this news.
I was even surprised that the active protection system is in such a late development status.

Implementing into our Leos? I really doubt that.
We are not even able to put the extra hull armor or, much more needed, a battlefield management system into them due to budget problems. It is a fact that the Bundeswehr is nearly bancrupt.
If we are not going to get a punch like the IDF in Lebanon I really doubt we field it in the near future.

 

[kams]

I've got no more infos than are in this news.
I was even surprised that the active protection system is in such a late development status.

Implementing into our Leos? I really doubt that.
We are not even able to put the extra hull armor or, much more needed, a battlefield management system into them due to budget problems. It is a fact that the Bundeswehr is nearly bancrupt.
If we are not going to get a punch like the IDF in Lebanon I really doubt we field it in the near future.

Huh not even BMS? That sounds bad

 

[Waylander]

It is said that there is going to be one in the near future there have been no new infos about it since some time.
But that's off-topic.
I'm going to cry about this in another thread.

 

[icelord]

And does anyone really see Germany purchasing a Israeli technology? Seeing as they blocked a test of the German made Dingo for the IDF

 

[icelord]

Found this reason for not selecting Trophy, seems fair enough with no reload or full protection available.

The US Army opted to pursue a different system. Earlier in 2006, Raytheon received a development contract to demonstrate and develop the Quick Kill APS, to be integrated into the future FCS systems. The Army faced mounting criticism about not considering the Trophy system for the protection of its armored vehicles deployed in Iraq. Maj. Gen. Jeffrey A, Sorenson, the Army’s deputy for acquisition and systems management explained the decision (AFPS) saying the Israeli system is not a “produceable item.” The Israelis have been working on the Trophy system for 10 or 11 years, Sorenson said. “If this thing was ready to go, my question would be, why wasn’t it on the particular tanks that went into Lebanon?” he said. No Israeli Merkava tanks carried the Trophy system, he said.

Other problems include the fact that the system right now has no reloading capability. Once it fires, that side of the vehicle is vulnerable. Which brings up another shortcoming: the Trophy can only be mounted to protect one axis. This means officials would have to mount multiple missile systems on every vehicle. The Quick Kill missile has 360-degree capability and a reload capability.

Another worry is collateral damage, he said. “In a tight urban area, the
Trophy system may take out the RPG, but we may kill 20 people in the process,” Sorenson said. “That is a concern we have that we haven’t fully evaluated.”
http://www.defense-update.com/products/t/trophy.htm