Israel's Trophy System Now or U.S. Raytheon System in 2011?
- Thread starter LancerMc
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mikehotwheelz
New Member
Wooki said:
Plus you have the potential for a political nightmare if the system went off amongst a rowdy (but not neccessarily lethal) local demonstration.
mikehotwheelz
New Member
Machine guns and main armament are not automatic whereas the Trophy is so my point stands.Waylander said:
No, there is a thing called a power switch that you would flick to the "off" position if you were caught in a rowdy demonstration.mikehotwheelz said:
cheers
W
Edit:
I think the major issue is weight. What's the SG of RDX ? Something like 0.97, I forget offhand, but it certainly is light and an ERA system provides the particular protection for the weight budget allowed.Waylander said:
Having said that, I haven't seen any TUSK kits deployed, have you Waylander?
PommeDeGuerre
New Member
I was referring to the government side of the exchange. I can accept a company being greedy, but I have a much harder time accepting that the government in general puts their soldiers' lives at risk intentionally in exchange for money. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - beyond it being us (the commoners) vs them (the rich elite). All I see there is speculation.TrangleC said:
mikehotwheelz
New Member
Wooki said:
Doh!:redface
I guess you are sleeping much better than me at night. Congratulations.PommeDeGuerre said:
If you dare to risk to lose that sweet and comfy naivety, then read stuff of Noam Chomsky (or listen to his audio books and recorded interviews) and others like him and watch documentations like "the corporation" and simply listen carefully to what those powerful people really say. Often they are astonishingly open about all of this.
PommeDeGuerre
New Member
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Being completely cynical isn't the same thing as being informed.TrangleC said:
Anarchist, communist, socialist, liberal, that are all just names and mean nothing.Big-E said:
Just try to listen to him and you can still decide that he's talking crap afterwards.
Don't be scared.
And how informed are you?PommeDeGuerre said:
Where is your proove that i am wrong?
Why do i always have to rummage through the net and through history books to bring up facts and examples? It's no use anyway, as you can see in this example: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5241&page=3
Nobody is listening to things they don't want to hear anyway.
Tens of thousands of people are made unemployed by the big corporations every year, just for shareholder value.
Fact.
(http://www.google.de/search?client=...al_s&hl=de&q=job+cuts&meta=&btnG=Google-Suche)
The ties between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family go back decades.
You don't have to watch Michael Moore documentaries to find out about that.
Fact.
(http://www.google.de/search?hs=lvo&...f+bush+and+bin+laden+familys&btnG=Suche&meta=)
Big american corporations have again and again done business with enemies of the USA.
Fact.
(http://images.google.de/imgres?imgu...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=G
http://images.google.de/images?svnu...en-US:official_s&q=watson+&+hitler&btnG=Suche
http://www.wealth4freedom.com/Elkhorn2.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corporations/Ford_Fuhrer.html
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/randy/swas1.htm)
Now why don't you prove me wrong for a change, instead of just going "give me prove!" and when i do, just ignoring it, as it seems common on this board?
I'm tired of doing the homework for others. Thank god for Google, so at least i don't have to scan and translate my history books and newspaper articles.
My "claims" are not at all extraordinary. It's all out there, you just mustn't ignore it.
Your argument looked solid till you brought that bit out, michael moore is an idiot, and his views are onesided, and most fair minded people missed his movies thankfully, but the ones that didn't went digging into this and spreading it around the world, hell, my understanding is the basis of fahrenheit 666 goes to this "fact"TrangleC said:
Now his the counter argument brought to it, By David T Hardy and Jason Clarke, yes a book about michael moore and his "facts" and totally opposed and conservative..yadda yadda yadda
"The bin Laden Family is enormous in size, most of them are Pro western and have useful power in a part of the world where we are short of allies. sexoned, its quite important to nothe that the bin laden family has long since disowned Osama. (not too surprising: hes declared that arab moderates and particularly saudis are hertics, and traitors to Islam. He takes particular offense at the proliferation of US Bases in Saudi Arabia- and bin laden construction firms are building many of them. Denouncng ones family as worth of death doesn't do wonders for family ties)"
Now, back to topic. Trophy is quite expensive, and as i said, ifyour only gunna have a token few, whats the bloody point? If its for a $100,000 Hummer,why put a $400,000 system on it that can't stop IEDs which are cheaper and easier for Anti-collition forces to make then an RPG. it would be wiser to start driving around in something stronger, say Cougars from what i hear, as they can halt IED or the Sth African IMV(forgot name) which is well built and holds up IEDs as well, as for RPG, upgrade the Armour a bit more, idk, slap an abrahams wall on it???
i'm glad to point out i'm not an engineer, but thats what their paid for.
I never sayd that Moore is a importamnt source for me and my argument. I'm aware that he is not very credible, but what he achieved was to bring something to my attention and thus animated me to look up more credible sources on that matter. And only because of that i mentioned him, because maybe others might be inspired to do the same by his little credible but still interesting documentations.
I also never sayd that all Bin Ladens are terrorists or even sympathize with such. But still the ties between the Bush- and the Bin Laden-family are a good example to show how the elites, no matter how different and hardly compatible the cultures, societies and political systems they come from are, still come along just great as long as they make money together.
Behind closed doors and on the golf course, separated from the masses, there are no islamist extremists and no american patriots. They are friends and businesspartners, but when they have ended their game of golf and their dinner parties, the Saudi princes go back to supporting islamists and to spreading anti american sentiments to influence their masses in their will, while the Bush family goes back to being all american patriots who stand for the protection of the USA against islamistic terror and so on.
Like it has always been, the powerful play the masses and use patriotism, religion and all forms of ideology to controll them, while their only ideology is to make more money and increase their wealth and power.
A bit like a guy who sells saussages and pretents to love them, but doesn't eat them himself because he knows what is grinded into them. The man who got rich by selling this saussages, of course eats better than his customers.
I don't believe the patriotism of the elites in the USA like i don't believe that the Saudi princes are truly faithful moslems or that a TV priest who makes a million a year and drives a Rolls Royce does that for god. All such people believe in is money and power.
And again back to topic:
Whether the Trophy system is bought or whether they'll wait till Raytheon has finally developed their system and thus whether hundrets of further soldiers will die only depends on which CEO is more likely to have breakfast with the president and other important people on his ranch.
Now you prove me wrong.
I also never sayd that all Bin Ladens are terrorists or even sympathize with such. But still the ties between the Bush- and the Bin Laden-family are a good example to show how the elites, no matter how different and hardly compatible the cultures, societies and political systems they come from are, still come along just great as long as they make money together.
Behind closed doors and on the golf course, separated from the masses, there are no islamist extremists and no american patriots. They are friends and businesspartners, but when they have ended their game of golf and their dinner parties, the Saudi princes go back to supporting islamists and to spreading anti american sentiments to influence their masses in their will, while the Bush family goes back to being all american patriots who stand for the protection of the USA against islamistic terror and so on.
Like it has always been, the powerful play the masses and use patriotism, religion and all forms of ideology to controll them, while their only ideology is to make more money and increase their wealth and power.
A bit like a guy who sells saussages and pretents to love them, but doesn't eat them himself because he knows what is grinded into them. The man who got rich by selling this saussages, of course eats better than his customers.
I don't believe the patriotism of the elites in the USA like i don't believe that the Saudi princes are truly faithful moslems or that a TV priest who makes a million a year and drives a Rolls Royce does that for god. All such people believe in is money and power.
And again back to topic:
Whether the Trophy system is bought or whether they'll wait till Raytheon has finally developed their system and thus whether hundrets of further soldiers will die only depends on which CEO is more likely to have breakfast with the president and other important people on his ranch.
Now you prove me wrong.
We studied him at the Academy... I don't need to go over his crack-pot politics yet again. He studied linguistics and thats the area he should have stayed in. He was quite good at it.TrangleC said:
Where is your proof, those items you listed are your historical interpretations. We however view them differently as is our right. Just because you read communist history books doesn't make it fact.TrangleC said:
Thats right, thats how capitalism works. Why would you keep a company operating at a net loss? It's supply and demand bro, if their isn't any demand then they don't need those jobs... use some common sense. The US is going into high end tech jobs from manufacturing, it's been happening for decades. For every job thats lost a new one is created otherwise we would all be unemployed.TrangleC said:
So what, They built the US Embassy is Saudi too, does that make the whole country in with Bin-Laden? I guess since I'm a taxpayer I'm in on the conspiracy.... uh oh :unknownTrangleC said:
Finally you said something right. They are only claims, it is not fact, it is your opinion and the opinion of communist/socialists party members. Don't attack us just because you are naive enough to beleive everything you read on "Google".:lol3TrangleC said:
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Communist history books... lol
That isn't even worth a reply.
It's just like i expected. I am dared to bring prove and facts, i do so and then they are ignored and now you even do the lame "you are a communist!"-thing.
A typical and very cheap attempt to end a discussion when you don't have any credible arguments. In Germany you are usually called a Nazi in such cases.
Why don't you call me a "nazi communist alien invader from mars who is posessed by the devil"? That would cover it all.
That isn't even worth a reply.
It's just like i expected. I am dared to bring prove and facts, i do so and then they are ignored and now you even do the lame "you are a communist!"-thing.
A typical and very cheap attempt to end a discussion when you don't have any credible arguments. In Germany you are usually called a Nazi in such cases.
Why don't you call me a "nazi communist alien invader from mars who is posessed by the devil"? That would cover it all.
You forgot "land rights for gay whales" (one of my favorites)TrangleC said:
One of the first things about anger management is to realize life is not easy. i.e. one thinks "This should be easier" and this thought sparks anger. It seems that you are getting ticked because it is not easy to convince people that your point of view is correct.
Its difficult for you because you are taking an extremist position and providing cherry picked data to support your arguments and therefore it is an incomplete, or flawed argument. If you want to support your arguments you have to look at it as a scientist (Sociologist, I guess) and examine ALL the data, and then draw a logical conclusion.
For example: The WW2 President of the USA (Theodore Roosevelt) [edit: WTF?? That would be Franklin. Just goes to show you shouldn't read books on the Panama Canal and post at the same time:tomato ] froze all business assets that were a result of doing business with the Nazi party. This included our current President's (George Bush IIRC) grandfather's business assets because he was doing business with the Nazi party.
Now taken from your perspective, you would leap upon this as proof positive that all wealthy people are..., etc, etc, vitriollic-spume-to-describe-your-point.
But the fact is, it isn't proof for such an argument.
1) you shouldn't use absolutes like "all", or "never" and so on.
2) market forces dictate that if there is a demand then someone will fill it. If its not you, it will be someone else.
3) In the above case, the legislative branch of the US government acted accordingly when it became clear that the Nazi party were an enemy of the people. (When Hitler declared war on the USA).
4), 5), 6) etc.
I'm sure these are not all the points, but say if it were, then you can see the process that from the above data you make a conclusion.
Now, I'm not a wordsmith, but I tried to give you an example (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5259&page=2 post #20), or snap shot of some of the inner workings that go on. I was trying to demonstrate to you that rather than malice, or conspiracy (to field an armor system that wouldn't work) it was more a case of an executive making a stupid call.
People do stupid things. But at the same time, this was corrected by natural market forces e.g. the customer (the US Army in the case of the example) saying, "that is stupid" and so on.
I was trying to help you come to a logical conclusion. That is what public discussion is all about.
In the case of the Trophy Active defense system a user might look at it as;
1) It is a good system for what it is designed to do
1a) most systems are very good at what they are designed to do and not good at what they are not designed to do.
2) It is an expensive system
2a) The cost of the system is justified if you expect to use it and it is successful
3) Using the system has consequences, in that it is dangerous to people located near it when used.
So, do we need it? Given that the major threat is IEDs and NOT RPGs, then the answer would be "no", although its patently obvious it would be great against RPGs, so lets back the US concern for future use. i.e. when we come up against an ATGM centric threat in a future conflict.
I hope this has helped.
Cheers
W
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If i cherrypicked my evidences, then everybody here should feel free to do the same to disprove me.
I requested that before.
That is that oldfashioned pro and contra principle.
That "the other side" in this discussion does such a poor job, doesn't mean i have to do it for them, does it?
That would help me to manage my anger. lol
I requested that before.
That is that oldfashioned pro and contra principle.
That "the other side" in this discussion does such a poor job, doesn't mean i have to do it for them, does it?
That would help me to manage my anger. lol
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #40
I am glad to see that this topic has sparked a lot of debate, but some of things being discussed have nothing to do with this topic. Remember this is a military discussion forum not a site to discuss political theories and points of view. So keep on topic and please be polite to your fellow posters.