Israeli Navy capability against coastal targets

[contedicavour]

With the current tense situation in Lebanon, I'm looking for an assessment of the Israeli Navy's capability against coastal targets.
They are using the Oto Melara Compatto 76mm gun, fine, that one I know well.
But what about the use of Gabriel and Harpoon missiles against coastal targets ?

 

[Jtimes2]

With the current tense situation in Lebanon, I'm looking for an assessment of the Israeli Navy's capability against coastal targets.
They are using the Oto Melara Compatto 76mm gun, fine, that one I know well.
But what about the use of Gabriel and Harpoon missiles against coastal targets ?

They have a system called Navlar; a ship-based multiple-launcher rocket system that can fire about 19 miles inland. It fits into the turret ring of a 76mm OTO-Melara; requiring no new hull penetrations.

 

[rossfrb_1]

They have a system called Navlar; a ship-based multiple-launcher rocket system that can fire about 19 miles inland. It fits into the turret ring of a 76mm OTO-Melara; requiring no new hull penetrations.

According to
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/artillery/navlar/NAVLAR.html
The MkIV version of the rocket can have a range out to 45km.
Someone on strategypage was saying the MkII version has a 30km range with a 50kg warhead. That's some serious firepower for a small vessel.

rb

 

[.pt]

guns & rockets

well, those should be enough, since beirut and its airport are right in the waterfront, so no problem hitting those targets, altough i think the airport and some targets in beirut were hit by airplanes and helicopters, right?
Anyone has any idea of the naval assets the israelis have to impose the blockade on lebanese ports? Also do the lebanese have any naval assets to counter this threat? And what about coastal defence, any capabilities to speak of?
As far as i´ve seen, the israelis are using their navy to impose a blockade, but no ofensive role so far,they leave that to aviation. Wonder what will be the sirian reaction to all this, will they take this as a "justification" to ocupy more parts of lebanon again?

 

[contedicavour]

Thanks for the information on Navlar ! Exactly what I was looking for

To answer .pt's questions, the Israelis have the 3 Saar V FFGs and 8 Saar 4.5 corvettes, all with 76mm, Phalanx, Gabriel and Harpoon, and Barak SAMs, plus 15+ small but very fast Super Dvora patrol crafts.
Lebanon only has a few coastal patrol crafts (Attacker class 20-metre long) armed only with 12.7mm gun or 7.62. Plus 2 French EDIC LSTs (670 ton 59 metre).

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

It appears the Palestinians have a weapon to respond to patrol ships firing ship to shore missiles, the UAV. The Jerusalem Post reports today that one of their warships was heavily damaged by a explosive laden UAV. Link:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885994586&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

I wonder which ship has been damaged, and whether it will be able to return to port for repairs. You would have thought that the Israeli patrol boats with their Barak SAMs and Vulcan Phalanx CIWS would have shot the slow moving UAV down.

 

[kams]

It appears the Palestinians have a weapon to respond to patrol ships firing ship to shore missiles, the UAV. The Jerusalem Post reports today that one of their warships was heavily damaged by a explosive laden UAV. Link:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885994586&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

I wonder which ship has been damaged, and whether it will be able to return to port for repairs. You would have thought that the Israeli patrol boats with their Barak SAMs and Vulcan Phalanx CIWS would have shot the slow moving UAV down.

I believe it was Hezbollah in Lebanon who fired the UAV. Later reports in BBC and CNN claim its an Rocket. Whetever it was..did it evade the point defence systems due to small size?

 

[Waylander]

The Hisbollah says that they hit the ship with two missiles.
Hard to know who says the truth.
Some kind of ATGMs could also be possible if the ship operated near enough to the coast.

 

[kams]

The Hisbollah says that they hit the ship with two missiles.
Hard to know who says the truth.
Some kind of ATGMs could also be possible if the ship operated near enough to the coast.

Its confirmed now that attack was carried out using UAV rigged with explosive. The ship was badly damaged and was towed to port. A second attack using rockets was also carried out (may be at a different ship) but missed it hit a civilian ship instead. UAV in hands of Hezbollah is a scary thought. what next? a nuke? or dirty bomb?

 

[Sea Toby]

The Israeli patrol boat was able to put out the fires and was towed back into port, so the ship wasn't sunk, although it is badly damaged. A civilian merchant ship was also hit by another attack, it is still unclear by what weapon.

Instead of an invasion this time, it appears Israel is attempting to lay seige on the Gaza strip and southern Lebanon. We'll see how this conflict goes in the next few days and weeks.

 

[icelord]

UAV in hands of Hezbollah is a scary thought. what next? a nuke? or dirty bomb?

The UAV originally appeared as a recon aircraft for Hezbollah, but did not make it very far, crashing shortly after take off. Guess they figured out how to get it working.
The Terriost UAV has prompted the USA to create anti-UAV UAVs, which will lead to other Anti-UAV UAVs from other countries, and this will lead to some sort of....race, which involves arms, hmm, this familiar to anyone?

 

[Waylander]

I think building an "UAV" as a bomb is not that complicated.
Buy a good radio controlled toy plane and put a camera and some explosives onto it. With enough sending power you should be able to direct it into your target.
Some people who serve/served in the german navy told me that it could be possible that the defence system didn't react because of the small size and low speed of the flying bomb.

 

[sidishus]

Its confirmed now that attack was carried out using UAV rigged with explosive.

As is the standard, the initial reports were highly inaccurate.

This we do know:

-The Israeli ship was a Saar 5 because the hit was widely reported to have occurred on the flight deck. The Saar 5 class is the only type in the Israeli navy that has a helo deck and (at least) one was off the coast of Beirut on the 14th:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060715/ids_photos_wl/r2907883091.jpg

For reference, compare to this photo:

http://www.jjma.com/Documents/Services/ShipDesign/intnat/saar5-1.jpg

-The video of the two weapons being launched towards the sea are clearly rockets or missiles of an as yet (publicly)undertermined type.

http://players.mediazone.co.il/media/authors/34/playlists/2082/players/3/

Given the apparent rocket motor blast and high g acceleration of the weapons seen, these were no small drone aircraft.

Judging from my time in Beirut (was there in a previous life), the launch area is almost certainly along the Corniche.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/955/47218305a7e439edf2b2lt.jpg

(More photos of Beirut here. Pretty place really. Shame the folks just can't get along)

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=1981966

And comparing rooflines in the video to the building in left center of this photo, I will opine the launch area was right near this marina:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6972/168719505jrayfcph6kd.jpg

...which has been built just to the east of the point at the bottom right of this photo. (The photo was made before the marinas were built). From there the entire rodstead could be covered:

http://www.patron.co.il/inner/AerialPhotos/images/Beirut City.gif


West Beirut is the Muslim "side" and is very densely populated. That would explain how the launch platform was able to be concealed and then was able to be brought out for launch without intervention from the Lebanese army.


Big question is what kind of missiles? Two were shown launched in the video. Two hits were reported. One on the Sarr 5 and one on a merchant. A 100 percent hit rate strongly suggests these were not unguided rockets.

Initial reports suggest these:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-201.htm

If so, this signals overt Iranian support for Hizbollah and also suggests a cruise missile threat that could stretch across all of Israel.

 

[kams]

I think building an "UAV" as a bomb is not that complicated.
Buy a good radio controlled toy plane and put a camera and some explosives onto it. With enough sending power you should be able to direct it into your target.
Some people who serve/served in the german navy told me that it could be possible that the defence system didn't react because of the small size and low speed of the flying bomb.

Waylander, I think building an UAV is much more that rigging a toy plane. I hear that this Naval ship was damaged pretty badly. So this UAV should be capable of carrying substantial amount of explosives and should have considerable range (From the TV reports it looks like the Israeli ships are atleast 4-5 KM from coast) and have TV feed...(difficult to guide the UAV at that range by visual reference only).

 

[sidishus]

Latest reports are suggesting the C802.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-802.htm


JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel said on Saturday the Lebanese guerrilla group Hizbollah had fired an Iranian-made guided missile at one of its naval ships off Beirut and not hit it with an explosives-laden drone as previously claimed.

A military source said a C802 radar-guided missile with a range of 60 miles (100 km) had been fired at the ship as it sat off the coast on Friday, enforcing a blockade on Lebanon's ports.

Israeli media reported that Hizbollah had said it had hit the ship with a drone packed with explosives.

The missile strike caused substantial damage to the vessel and left four sailors missing. Israel recovered the body of one of the four on Saturday. The ship was towed back to port in Haifa, still smouldering from the attack.

"This is sophisticated weaponry," the Israeli military source said. "This is advanced weaponry that is being supplied by one terrorist state (Iran) to another," he said.

The source said two of the land-to-sea missiles were fired on Friday. The other hit and sank an Egyptian merchant ship, he said. Egypt has not confirmed the loss of a merchant vessel.

Israel believes Hizbollah, a group backed by Iran and Syria, has between 10,000 and 12,000 rockets in its arsenal with a variety of ranges, from around 30 km to 70 km.


It makes the most sense, and it also marks a dangerous intrusion by Iran into the Arab-Israeli conflict. Up until now Iranian support has been widely acknowledged, but tacit nontheless.
If it is true Iranian nationals were involved in this attack as some reorts are saying, the situation has grown as dangerous as its been since 1973...

 

[Waylander]

Depends on the explosives. C4 is not that heavy and has enough power to cause some damage and if you are lucky something begins to burn.
And why shouldn't you be able to guide the plane with a camera into your target? Every engineering student should be able to build such a thing.

 

[merocaine]

second ship

The IDF navy stated that a 2nd civialian ship was hit and sunk, what was a civilian ship doing hanging around the IDF fleet? is it possible that it was a spy ship disguised as a trawler?
I think this might be the case because the IDF is maintaining a naval blokade, which would preclude any Civialian ships in the area.
the other option is that it was a regualar navy PT boat, and the IDF is witholding the info to avoid giving a propaganda boost to the other side.
Or else the IDF is incapable of sealing the coast.

 

[Red aRRow]

Apparently the Barak missile system + Phalanx were totally ineffective in protecting the Saar 5.
The Corvette hit was the Ahi-Hanit as it was bombarding Beirut airport, it's now trying to limp back/getting towed to the port of Haifa and is totally out of commission. Apparently the hit caused a major internal explosion (did the magazine for the VLS get hit or something?). The news reports were little erroneous mentioning that the hit was on the bow side on the helicopter deck...while in reality the Saar 5 has the deck stern side.

If Lebanon has C-802s (as is being claimed) then it would give them a much better ability against any Israeli ships/vessels which might try a port blockade.
Also if this indeed was the C-802 then it speaks highly of the Chinese technology and anti-jamming capabilites of their missiles.

 

[sidishus]

The IDF navy stated that a 2nd civialian ship was hit and sunk, what was a civilian ship doing hanging around the IDF fleet? is it possible that it was a spy ship disguised as a trawler?

The port of Beirut is a busy place and the roadstead off the port stays crowded with merchants:

http://archnet.org/library/images/one-image.tcl?place_id=1529&image_id=81776

The questions are:
...Were the Israelis sucessfull in using countermeasures against the missile?

...And did it then lock onto the fireighter in much the same way the Exocet was inadvertently deflected into the Atlantic Conveyor during the Falklands?

http://www.naval-history.net/F47opsweek9.htm

 

[tphuang]

Apparently the Barak missile system + Phalanx were totally ineffective in protecting the Saar 5.
The Corvette hit was the Ahi-Hanit as it was bombarding Beirut airport, it's now trying to limp back/getting towed to the port of Haifa and is totally out of commission. Apparently the hit caused a major internal explosion (did the magazine for the VLS get hit or something?). The news reports were little erroneous mentioning that the hit was on the bow side on the helicopter deck...while in reality the Saar 5 has the deck stern side.

If Lebanon has C-802s (as is being claimed) then it would give them a much better ability against any Israeli ships/vessels which might try a port blockade.
Also if this indeed was the C-802 then it speaks highly of the Chinese technology and anti-jamming capabilites of their missiles.

I don't think China ever exported C-802 to Lebanon, but maybe Iran sold some copies of its C802 to Lebanon. The more likely scenario is that Iran was the party that fired off the missile.