Israel sets its Boundaries
- Thread starter merocaine
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
No worries. 
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
This kind of arrogance really pisses me off!!! Who do the isrealies think they are??? UNIFIL should bring in some serious naval assets and any IAF F16's that come within 50k's should be lit up! What are they hiding??? Maybe there's something they really dont want the west to find out? Apart from an undeclared nuclear arsenal!
I think one of their problems is that these nice little intelligence ships are able to copy nearly every flight operations and radio transmissions in the region.
Might look bad the next time they "accidently" bomb a UN post and the Alster sees that they do it while talking to their base.
Might look bad the next time they "accidently" bomb a UN post and the Alster sees that they do it while talking to their base.
contedicavour
New Member
Does the German government plan to send a F124 now ? Do you know of any request to the Dutch or the Spanish (the only ones having modern AAW ships fully operational...) ?We thought we wouldn't need an AAW FFG there.
Time proved wrong.
The new news are that there was no german helicopter in the wrong airspace because of which two F-16 scrambled.
First lie...
There were six F-16 instead of two running these simulated attacks.
Second lie now comfirmed by the Israelis...
The two salvos above the ship are also comfirmed.
It does not looks like a mistake but like a planned message to us.
They seem to be afraid of what an intelligence vessel might see and hear even if it is outside of Israeli waters.
Good that one of our captains had the balls to light them up. This is not a game. We are mainly there to protect the Israelis but UNIFIL is also there to divide both parties and look for questionable Israeli actions.
It is not easy these days to accept Israeli actions.
By the way, what ROEs do the German ships have in case of further hostile activity by IDF planes ?
You have full solidarity from EU friends
cheers
There are no new news about german forces.
Remember that Germany has a little bit difficult past.
I also have no news about the other european forces in this area.
It looks like our government says " It's ok, nothing happened, everything is ok" like always it is about Israelie actions.
Remember that Germany has a little bit difficult past.
I also have no news about the other european forces in this area.
It looks like our government says " It's ok, nothing happened, everything is ok" like always it is about Israelie actions.
Not going to happen. German ships posing as a credible deterrence to the IDF are absolutely unimaginable at the moment. The only event that might turn around public as well as political opinion is when they would sink one of our vessels. As I said before, the reasons for not sending an AAW unit in the first place had nothing to do with underestimating the israeli capabilities but with the point that we are simply not there to face off with the IDF at all. That was one of the reasons behind the decision not to send any boots on the ground. The naval support was considered a politically safer option. Obviously that was wrong.
Dying with a smile on the face. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but the current attitude by our politicians towards the Israelis pisses me of.
contedicavour
New Member
Continental European politicians are astonishing. They only send troops for peacekeeping operations, equip them insufficiently and allow for inadequate ROEs. When inevitably soldiers get killed or hurt, politicians redouble in caution or even question whether soldiers are acting peaceful enough.
The recent pictures in the German press of soldiers in Afghanistan playing around with skulls (though horrible) have completely eclipsed news on reform of the German armed forces (incl the creation of a fast reaction corps) and the news on the incident off Lebanon.
Those politicians are really not mature enough to handle the outcome of poorly defined peacekeeping operations.
cheers
The recent pictures in the German press of soldiers in Afghanistan playing around with skulls (though horrible) have completely eclipsed news on reform of the German armed forces (incl the creation of a fast reaction corps) and the news on the incident off Lebanon.
Those politicians are really not mature enough to handle the outcome of poorly defined peacekeeping operations.
cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
When I first read that article I was willing to blame the pilots, but if its true that there were 6 jets involved in the action, then the orders would have to have come from much higher up the chain of command, does anyone have an idea what rank the officer would have to be?
The Israelies have hit peace keepers before, (on to many occasions to be considered to be an accident), as well as allies (USS Liberty). This kind of action is in keeping with past IDF behaviour, wherther it will escalate, is up to the europeans, if the keep out of the Israelies hair, and allow them freedom of action, then Israel will ignore them.
If Europeans insist on electronic eavesdropping, even hand implimentation of there mandate, then there will probobly be an unfortunate accident.
What is possible is an Israeli commando operation in the border region, to prevent detection and drive german ships away the israelies launch a couple of silkworm missles,(most lightly as warning shots) and blame hezzbollah. The Israelies use the launch as Causi belli to attack Hezz targets in the Leb, most lightly this would be a limited action.
All very deniable from an IDF point of view, and makes sure the German navy stays out of the IDF's way, because why would a German Captain risk his vessal if his goverment doesent want him there in the first place?
Does anyone know what the exact ROE's are for the Intervention force?
The Israelies have hit peace keepers before, (on to many occasions to be considered to be an accident), as well as allies (USS Liberty). This kind of action is in keeping with past IDF behaviour, wherther it will escalate, is up to the europeans, if the keep out of the Israelies hair, and allow them freedom of action, then Israel will ignore them.
If Europeans insist on electronic eavesdropping, even hand implimentation of there mandate, then there will probobly be an unfortunate accident.
What is possible is an Israeli commando operation in the border region, to prevent detection and drive german ships away the israelies launch a couple of silkworm missles,(most lightly as warning shots) and blame hezzbollah. The Israelies use the launch as Causi belli to attack Hezz targets in the Leb, most lightly this would be a limited action.
All very deniable from an IDF point of view, and makes sure the German navy stays out of the IDF's way, because why would a German Captain risk his vessal if his goverment doesent want him there in the first place?
Does anyone know what the exact ROE's are for the Intervention force?
Yeah have to agree, there are a lot of people in germany who want to think the worst of there troops, the histerical reaction to those pictures (some guys found a skull and started messing around!!) just goes to show there is a lot of work to be done to convince european people that there troops can be a force for stability and order.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Re ROE, AFAIK the German commanders are allowed to shoot back. They kept their heads cool.
I consider the skull incident a marginal story, that is being blown out of proportion by the German media. Because any deployment outside of Germany is controversial anything improper is by association compromising the mission. Regardless of the relevant issues pertaining to the mission in Afghanistan.
Outside of Germany I gather the reaction to the Afghanistan story to be curious, but of no import.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #32
Blown totally out of proportion i agree, but with so much of common european defence policy dependent on germany I get worried that this kind of thing could spark a backlash in the media against deploying abroad, or even effect the development of european battle groups(more importantly).
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Actually I was wondering the same myself. Who is in charge: The IDF/AF or the Israeli Gov't?
From Der Spiegel. Translation by Google.
From Der Spiegel. Translation by Google.
Hehe. It translates "Krause" [a name] to "ruffle."
Problem is this, forsee trouble i do.>Yoda speak
Its quite simple, if Israel had wanted to wipe out the ship, they would have, with little fuss. Perhaps the germans were entering a little too close for comfort, or even near an area where Israelis had pre declared no go. The point is, all the facts are not reported in the media, especially the home media, and we may be missing something. Could germany have been in the wrong? For an Israeli fighter to, if true fire a shot across the bow as it would be, there would be a need for provocation. Perhaps their Anti-air radar picked up the F-16 and auto locked it as a target, leading to attack stations.
Theres to many unknowns at this point
Its quite simple, if Israel had wanted to wipe out the ship, they would have, with little fuss. Perhaps the germans were entering a little too close for comfort, or even near an area where Israelis had pre declared no go. The point is, all the facts are not reported in the media, especially the home media, and we may be missing something. Could germany have been in the wrong? For an Israeli fighter to, if true fire a shot across the bow as it would be, there would be a need for provocation. Perhaps their Anti-air radar picked up the F-16 and auto locked it as a target, leading to attack stations.
Theres to many unknowns at this point
The ship was 50nm of the coast if Israel.
This is not even near to Israeli waters but it is right that the "Alster" is able to operate from this position and control the EW-emissions over Israel and the Lebanon.
First the Israelis said that a helicopter started from the alster was the reason for the scrambling of two F-16.
But the "Alster" has not helicopter and there were six F-16 instead of two. The Oste class is also not even able to light them up with a missile radar.
And due to our past and the political guidelines the last thing a german ship would do is anything which could look agressive to the Israelis.
As to the skull incident.
My opinion is that the soldiers who did it should be disciplined and that's it.
The ongoing discussion in the media and the commentaries of our politicians are ridicilous.
The interesting thing is that everybody I know says that this was not good but that the reaction of the medias and politicians is much too much.
This is not even near to Israeli waters but it is right that the "Alster" is able to operate from this position and control the EW-emissions over Israel and the Lebanon.
First the Israelis said that a helicopter started from the alster was the reason for the scrambling of two F-16.
But the "Alster" has not helicopter and there were six F-16 instead of two. The Oste class is also not even able to light them up with a missile radar.
And due to our past and the political guidelines the last thing a german ship would do is anything which could look agressive to the Israelis.
As to the skull incident.
My opinion is that the soldiers who did it should be disciplined and that's it.
The ongoing discussion in the media and the commentaries of our politicians are ridicilous.
The interesting thing is that everybody I know says that this was not good but that the reaction of the medias and politicians is much too much.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
But this skull incident is a senstive situation. Sure its been blown out of proportion but any controvertial actions by western/NATO personell are sure to be shown over and over again, especially by media like al jezira. And the effect these things can have on centre muslims could be significant. Its just the nature of the beast at the moment and western militaries have to really diciplined when it comes to this sort of stuff. Bad form.
Hmm, with the skulls incident, it may have been little over the top, DATELINE ran a story a few months back( good ol Negus) about US soldiers burning bodies and taunting Taliban forces about it. They got some international coverage about it, but nothing compared to this.
http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?page=archive&daysum=2005-10-19#
http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?page=archive&daysum=2005-10-19#
Just remember that these bones belong to Sovjet Soldiers.
They were buried in a mass grave.
Sometime before ther arrival of ISAF the people living there started to use the clay bed above the grave for their houses. Because of this the bones lay there unburied.
Every muslim cry for revenge is ridicilous.
The people there do not care a bit about these bones.
They were buried in a mass grave.
Sometime before ther arrival of ISAF the people living there started to use the clay bed above the grave for their houses. Because of this the bones lay there unburied.
Every muslim cry for revenge is ridicilous.
The people there do not care a bit about these bones.
contedicavour
New Member
I just hope this incident will die down.
I anyway find it inacceptable that German soldiers be considered almost war criminals for playing with skulls, less than a year after Islamist extremists desacrated and destroyed an Italian cemetery in Mogadishu, and threw into the sea the remains of hundreds of Italians who lived in Somalia for most of their lives (and contributed massively to the local economy) :lul
Anyway, back to topic. The EU and UNIFIL should clarify fast the ROEs with the Israeli armed forces, otherwise more incidents will take place, until the IDF identifies which is the limit to UNIFIL's tolerance of acts that breach the ceasefire agreements.
2 ways to do this, either you send ships capable of downing IDF jets, just to get the message through that we don't tolerate such acts, or (possibiliy n°2) you use diplomacy to get the message through.
One way or the other, we need clarity.
cheers
I anyway find it inacceptable that German soldiers be considered almost war criminals for playing with skulls, less than a year after Islamist extremists desacrated and destroyed an Italian cemetery in Mogadishu, and threw into the sea the remains of hundreds of Italians who lived in Somalia for most of their lives (and contributed massively to the local economy) :lul
Anyway, back to topic. The EU and UNIFIL should clarify fast the ROEs with the Israeli armed forces, otherwise more incidents will take place, until the IDF identifies which is the limit to UNIFIL's tolerance of acts that breach the ceasefire agreements.
2 ways to do this, either you send ships capable of downing IDF jets, just to get the message through that we don't tolerate such acts, or (possibiliy n°2) you use diplomacy to get the message through.
One way or the other, we need clarity.
cheers