Iraqi Air Force wants F-15 and F-16s

Izzy1

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #41
I have never seen the Iraqi Security Forces with MBT's not even IFV's just HUMVEE's.
They have had armour for a while now.

Jane's World Armies

Iraqi Army - 2007

9th Division HQ - Taji: CO. Maj Gen Bashar Ayoub

1st Mechanised Brigade Formed 2004, initially equipped with refurbished Saddam-era T-55 MBT and various BTR-series APC.

2nd Armoured Brigade Formed 2005, equipped with T-72 MBT donated from Hungary as well as various BTR-series APC refurbished from former Saddam-era Iraqi stocks.

3rd Mechanised Brigade Under formation as of late-2006 with further ex-Saddam era MBT and APC.

This last brigade probably employs M-113 APC donated from various sources.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
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  • #42
i doubt so but such hi tech aircraft? i dun think Israel will stand by and watch another Arab power with such sophisticated weaponry at their backyard.
Oh please...

Why not Iraq, I agree, I hope not. But Israel has stood by already.

Inform yourself and back up such comments.

Come back to me and tell me what the Royal Saudi Air Force has in service now and what it will soon get.

Second, which Arab country currently operates the most advanced F-16 block variant?

Please.
 
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T-95

New Member
Oh please...

Why not Iraq, I agree, I hope not. But Israel has stood by already.

Inform yourself and back up such comments.

Come back to me and tell me what the Royal Saudi Air Force has in service now and what it will soon get.

Second, which Arab country currently operates the most advanced F-16 block variant?

Please.
RSAF is probably the best equipped Arab air force. UAE's AF doesn't pose a threat to Israel because they're so far away. It's mainly for Iran. As for the RSAF after it gets the Typhoon it could probably achieve air-superiority over Israel,maybe, but i think they get more flight time than the Israeli air force and have 300+ modern war planes. It terms of equipment I think it maintains a qualitative edge over the IAF.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They have had armour for a while now.

Jane's World Armies

Iraqi Army - 2007

9th Division HQ - Taji: CO. Maj Gen Bashar Ayoub

1st Mechanised Brigade Formed 2004, initially equipped with refurbished Saddam-era T-55 MBT and various BTR-series APC.

2nd Armoured Brigade Formed 2005, equipped with T-72 MBT donated from Hungary as well as various BTR-series APC refurbished from former Saddam-era Iraqi stocks.

3rd Mechanised Brigade Under formation as of late-2006 with further ex-Saddam era MBT and APC.

This last brigade probably employs M-113 APC donated from various sources.
Good post - they will also be picking up further orders of helicopters and BTR 94s from Jordon. Additional equipment is also being looked at from the Czech Republic, Poland and possibly Ukrainian hardware.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...As for the RSAF after it gets the Typhoon it could probably achieve air-superiority over Israel,maybe, but i think they get more flight time than the Israeli air force and have 300+ modern war planes. It terms of equipment I think it maintains a qualitative edge over the IAF.
But air superiority needs more than pilot skill (& flying hours isn't everything: the quality of each hour matters) & equipment. There's also command & control quality, situational awareness & how it's used, & other factors. The Israelis have proved adept at electronic warfare, for example.
 

T-95

New Member
But air superiority needs more than pilot skill (& flying hours isn't everything: the quality of each hour matters) & equipment. There's also command & control quality, situational awareness & how it's used, & other factors. The Israelis have proved adept at electronic warfare, for example.
I was saying maybe. I wouldn't say the RSAF couldn't do it and I don't think anyone can really say that. As for command and control quality and situational awareness I think the Saudis have comprehensive radar coverage over there territory and I know they have 5 E-3C AWACS planes (probably the best AWACS out there) and I believe that the Israelis ,or any ME country for that matter, have no equivalent. More over the RSAF have some of the best A2G platforms there are, the Tornado and F-15E variants (F-15S). They also have way more air-superiority version of the F-15 than Israel has and I don't think the Israeli F-16C can shoot down an F-15C unless in WVR combat.
 

vivtho

New Member
Isn't the A-10 a USAF exclusive??? I'm surprised no one asked to buy it. It's a hell of a plane!
The only Air Force that seriously considered purchasing the A-10 was South Korea. For all the other AFs, it was simply too specialized an aircraft.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #48
The only Air Force that seriously considered purchasing the A-10 was South Korea. For all the other AFs, it was simply too specialized an aircraft.
I believe the Jordanians came very close also to buying second-hand A-10s from the USAF, however the deal attracted intense and ultimately successful pressure from the Israel-lobby and the proposed sale was cancelled. Jordan, which has always suffered problems achieving tank-parity with Israel, regarded the A-10 as the perfect solution.

but i think they get more flight time than the Israeli air force
I keep saying this here - yes, RSAF does achieve plenty of flying hours, the F-15 squadrons especially. But they don't do much productive flight training for those hours. Large-scale exercises are too few and rarely of any meaningful quality. Multi-squadron operations are unheard of, as is close air support training for ground units. Yes, the RSAF does practice plenty of ACM but very little dissimilar air combat training. Lastly co-operation with other GCC air forces can only be described as woeful - but to be fair this is changing.

Israel, Egypt and Jordan certainly in my opinion, put less hours to a lot greater use and benefit.

I think the Saudis have comprehensive radar coverage over there territory...
This is true, the 'Peace Shield' system is a state-of-the-art integrated air defence system finally developed for RSAF by ThalesRaytheon Systems. The program began in 1985, with the aim of bringing all of Saudi's fixed wing interceptors, land-based air defence and AWACS into one single networked entity backed up by a very comprhensive C3I system based in Riyadh.

Large delays were experienced introducing the system and it was only partially available for the First Gulf War. This renewed the urgency to get the system fully operational and lead-contractor Boeing was repleced in 1991 by Hughes Corporation (eventually to become ThalesRaytheon Systems). It would still take however another five years to get the system fully operational by which time 5.6 Billion US$ had been spent on the system. Prof. Kenneth Pollack describes the final product as the "The most comprehensive air defence network outside of NATO".

Given the need to provide coverage across the Gulf, along the southern borders with Yemen, across the Red Sea and protect the northen borders; five Sector Operations Centres (SOC) at Dhahran, Taif, Tabuk, Khamis Mushayt and Al Kharj feed into the network data from their respective regions.

17 x AN/FPS-117 long-range, solid-state 3D radars provide the backbone of the system. Each SOC has three AN/FPS-117 available, apart from Tabuk which has five AN/FPS-117 covering the sensitive Jordanian/Israeli/Iraqi border region.

A further 28 x AN/TPS-43 3D and 35 x AN/TPS-72 mobile tactical radars are available for short-to-medium range coverage and provide data to the Patriot SAM Batteries (numbering 20 units with 160 launchers) and the I-HAWK III SAM batteries (numbering 16 batteries with 120 launchers). A further 48 Crotale SAM systems and 16 independent-mobile acquisition units provide internal coverage over the vital oil production facilities in the Eastern Province. The system is also directly links the 5-strong RSAF E-3A AWACS fleet into the network.

Peace Sheid relies on a comprhensive communications network that includes HF radios, its own mobile telephone network, microwave line-of-sight radio systems, a store-and-forward message-switched network and a Kingdom-wide fibre optic grid. Links to the Royal Saudi Land Forces and the Royal Saudi Navy are also provided for. Further integration has seen the radar systems of GCC countries like Kuwait and Bahrain added to the system.

The RSAF currently has plans to further enhance the system with possible new SAM and ground-based radar acquistions, more AWACS and a new
C4I control network. Peace Shield would likely also provide the basis for any future Saudi ABM defence system.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
I keep saying this here - yes, RSAF does achieve plenty of flying hours, the F-15 squadrons especially. But they don't do much productive flight training for those hours. ...
Israel, Egypt and Jordan certainly in my opinion, put less hours to a lot greater use and benefit. ....
They certainly aren't unique in that. F-16.net has lists of F-16 pilots with highest hours in various air forces, where known (the Israeli list is obviously incomplete, & others probably are). About half the top ten Venezuelan pilots are generals. Looks as if a lot of the flight hours they rack up are jollies for the top blokes, not serious training. A couple of other air forces are suspiciously top-heavy, though not quite as bad.
 

contedicavour

New Member
They have had armour for a while now.

Jane's World Armies

Iraqi Army - 2007

9th Division HQ - Taji: CO. Maj Gen Bashar Ayoub

1st Mechanised Brigade Formed 2004, initially equipped with refurbished Saddam-era T-55 MBT and various BTR-series APC.

2nd Armoured Brigade Formed 2005, equipped with T-72 MBT donated from Hungary as well as various BTR-series APC refurbished from former Saddam-era Iraqi stocks.

3rd Mechanised Brigade Under formation as of late-2006 with further ex-Saddam era MBT and APC.

This last brigade probably employs M-113 APC donated from various sources.
If eventually the US and UK forces leave, whoever controls this armoured division is likely to hold the key to power in Baghdad... sure, guerrillas can't be taken out by MBTs, but any government without support from this division is unlikely to survive long...

cheers
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #51
If eventually the US and UK forces leave, whoever controls this armoured division is likely to hold the key to power in Baghdad... sure, guerrillas can't be taken out by MBTs, but any government without support from this division is unlikely to survive long...
Agreed and especially relevant given that the 9th Division's base at Taji is just 12 miles north of Baghdad.

After some further reading on this unit, other equipment delivered to the Iraqi Army also includes:

BMP-1 MICVs (Saddam-era refurbs and 36 more donated by Greece)
MTLB APCs (all Saddam-era refurbs)
Spartan APC (100 donated from Jordan)
BTR-94 APC (50 donated from Jordan)
M-113A1 APC (100 donated from Jordan)
Panhard M3 (44 donated from the UAE)
Fuchs 6x6 APC (20 donated from Germany)

The 9th Division interestingly has the largest number of serving Sunni Muslims of any Iraqi Army unit and has recruited a fair number of Saddam-era Republican Guard.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Agreed and especially relevant given that the 9th Division's base at Taji is just 12 miles north of Baghdad.

After some further reading on this unit, other equipment delivered to the Iraqi Army also includes:

BMP-1 MICVs (Saddam-era refurbs and 36 more donated by Greece)
MTLB APCs (all Saddam-era refurbs)
Spartan APC (100 donated from Jordan)
BTR-94 APC (50 donated from Jordan)
M-113A1 APC (100 donated from Jordan)
Panhard M3 (44 donated from the UAE)
Fuchs 6x6 APC (20 donated from Germany)

The 9th Division interestingly has the largest number of serving Sunni Muslims of any Iraqi Army unit and has recruited a fair number of Saddam-era Republican Guard.
It definitively looks like the good old elite Republican Guard divisions. T72s and BMP1s. It's curious that the Shia dominated government in Baghdad isn't doing anything to have this division deployed farther away from the capital.
Just add some armed helos (old Cobras or well armed Hueys or refurbished Hind Mil 24) and this unit becomes unbeatable by other Iraqi (or even Iranian) units.

cheers
 

T-95

New Member
The only Air Force that seriously considered purchasing the A-10 was South Korea. For all the other AFs, it was simply too specialized an aircraft.
Didn't Israel also consider them?? It's getting upgrades by the way, as if it wasn't effective enough. I so wanna see one one day. Love it!
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #55
Didn't Israel also consider them?? It's getting upgrades by the way, as if it wasn't effective enough. I so wanna see one one day. Love it!
As I say Jordan deffinately wanted it but Tel Aviv protested the deal, possibly linked to what you say, the IDF wanted A-10 for itself. Formidable aircraft, I always wonder how the Su-25 would perform in similar combat environments that the A-10 has operated so far.

It definitively looks like the good old elite Republican Guard divisions. T72s and BMP1s. It's curious that the Shia dominated government in Baghdad isn't doing anything to have this division deployed farther away from the capital.
I suppose from a Shia perspective, better the 9th Division be Sunni than Kurd. Would not be surprised if this unit was tasked with rapidly moving north to Kirkuk if the situation there warranted a strong-show of force from the Government.

Good to see Jordan providing large quantities of kit and the UAE has done a considerable amount of work behind-the-scenes with regards training the new Iraqi Army. Shame a few other regional partners have not shared a similar burden - especially those neighbours who have the most to loose from an unstable Iraq.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Agreed and especially relevant given that the 9th Division's base at Taji is just 12 miles north of Baghdad.

After some further reading on this unit, other equipment delivered to the Iraqi Army also includes:

BMP-1 MICVs (Saddam-era refurbs and 36 more donated by Greece)
MTLB APCs (all Saddam-era refurbs)
Spartan APC (100 donated from Jordan)
BTR-94 APC (50 donated from Jordan)
M-113A1 APC (100 donated from Jordan)
Panhard M3 (44 donated from the UAE)
Fuchs 6x6 APC (20 donated from Germany)

The 9th Division interestingly has the largest number of serving Sunni Muslims of any Iraqi Army unit and has recruited a fair number of Saddam-era Republican Guard.
Are sure about the M113s coming from Jordan, I thought they had given them to Lebanon.:)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Didn't Israel also consider them?? It's getting upgrades by the way, as if it wasn't effective enough. I so wanna see one one day. Love it!
There are a number of countries out there that have shown a interest in the Warthog, the problem is that we will not sell it due to what is sticking out of the nose of it. Israel and South Korea showed a interest in purchasing them when the U.S Airforce wanted to disband them in the mid nineties but we told both of them the big NYET. The Airforce was told by the U.S Army that if they did not want to fly it any longer that they would be more than happy to take them over and train warrant officers on how to fly them for combat, we can see what happened with that.:D

As far as a comparision between a A-10 and SU25 Frogfoot.

The Frogfoot is more of a ground attack aircraft while the Warthog is a major tank buster with a secondary role of ground attack, it is that good even though it is slower than a P-51 Mustang.:)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A-10 were offered to Turkey during 91 Gulf War and refused by the Airforce :\
Hmm - this is the first time of me hearing this, I was told because of the gun system that we would not sell it to anyone including our allies, NATO members included, but I may be wrong.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In the case of Turkey or any other ally who also uses DU-Ammo this would be no problem in my eyes.
 
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