Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. Provokes USN Warships

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Stryker001

Banned Member
~

That was supposed to be a martyrs operation against the US naval, although not a conventional martyrs attack. In that the US were meant to attack the Iran boats.

Iran could dispute the communication between the Iranian speedboats and the US ships. Thus creating an act of war without Iran directly targeting the US.

This would give Iran a legitimate reason to increase their operations against the US inside of Iraq, because the US had just committed an act of war against Iran. In that case, the Iranians underestimated the intellect of their adversary. Now due to the US listing the IRG as a terror organization, would the world classify that as war. It certainly would not lead to any acceptance of Iranian tactics inside Iraq against the US.

An operation like that they would have to knock back candidates.

Everybody thinks the President was in the region for peace in 12 months between Israel and the PA. He was there to protect coalition personnel in Iraq from Iranian interference.

things are moving under the surface.
 
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Firehorse

Banned Member
Iran’s Small Boats Are a Big Problem
By DAVID B. CRIST
Silver Spring, Md.

THE confrontation this month in the Persian Gulf between Navy warships and small boats of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard may have come as a surprise to the public at large, but not to me.
I witnessed a very similar event five years ago during the invasion of Iraq. It was April 4, 2003, and in support of the British assault on the city of Basra in southern Iraq, four Navy patrol boats, under a Navy command in which I served, were dispatched up the Shatt al Arab, the waterway marking the Iran-Iraq border. The senior officer present — a Navy captain — was an experienced Seal who was fluent in Persian, having lived in Tehran as a teenager. We took great pains to avoid a confrontation, staying well within Iraqi territorial waters and even erecting a makeshift Iranian flag on one of the boats, which our captain felt would display our peaceful intentions.
The Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps responded by sending four small boats toward us at high speed, the largest being a fast Swedish-built Boghammer, which resembles a cigarette boat, outfitted with a twin-barrel machine gun on its bow. With rooster-tails of white water, the boats came barreling over to the Iraqi side of the Shatt al Arab, surrounded us, and took the tarp off of at least one multiple-rocket launcher and pointed it directly at our lead boat.
Our captain tried to defuse the situation by telling the Iranians over the normal commercial radio channel that we were simply exercising our right to navigate Iraqi waters, had no intention of entering Iranian territory and did not seek a confrontation. The Iranians responded by a string of obscenities in heavily accented, broken English. After several tense minutes, we were ordered by our superiors to withdraw; the Iranian boats followed us a considerable distance before breaking off and heading back to their side of the waterway.
This was not the end of it, however. In the two weeks after this incident, American and coalition forces stationed on the Iraqi bank of the Shatt al Arab came under repeated, harassing small-arms fire from the Iranian mainland.
Now we seem to be seeing a similar period of Iranian truculence. In December, the Whidbey Island, a Navy dock-landing ship, fired warning shots at small Iranian craft that came too close. Three days later the frigate Carr was forced to use its ship’s horn to ward off three Iranian small boats, two of which were armed, according to Navy spokesmen.
While these incidents may not seem alarming to those who’ve never served on a potentially vulnerable modern warship, they fit into a worrisome pattern, a two-decade-old military strategy by Iran intended to counter the United States presence in the Persian Gulf. As a professional military historian (I work for the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon — these views are my own and do not represent those of the Department of Defense), I feel that a careful look at a few events from the past will shed some light.
In the 1980s the Navy had to counter a broad effort by Revolutionary Guard forces, then at war with Iraq, to set mines and otherwise hamper and damage American-flagged oil carriers in the gulf. The conflict heated up in the summer of 1987, when an American-flagged tanker hit an Iranian mine. That fall, Army helicopters fired on and Seals boarded an Iranian ship laying mines in international waters. The Seals confirmed the presence of mines, detained the crew and scuttled the ship.
The following April, the frigate Samuel B. Roberts was blown nearly in half by an Iranian mine, leading American forces to retaliate by attacking two Iranian oil platforms that had been used as staging areas. The Navy destroyed nearly half the Iranian Navy and put a temporary end to the Revolutionary Guards’ waterborne presence.
Despite that humiliation, some in Tehran came away believing that a combination of mines, missiles and the fervor of the Revolutionary Guard members manning small boats could compete with the might of the United States Navy in the confined waters of the Persian Gulf. So, off and on for 20 years, the Iranians have been initiating small incidents, testing the limits of what America will accept.
While the events earlier this month were ambiguous, there can be little doubt that the Iranian actions were part of this continuing pattern. Even if one believes Tehran’s explanation that the interaction was routine and harmless, the fact is that Iranian small ships came within 500 yards of American warships. At this range, our sailors would be well within the effective range of rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns, thus neutralizing the range advantage of our more advanced weapons.
This is why President Bush was correct in calling Iran’s actions “provocative” and having the State Department place Tehran on official notice that there will be serious consequences should the small boats continue their actions.
To forestall another confrontation or prevent an escalation, which would not be in our interests, the United States needs to do more. Washington should begin by marshaling the support of its allies that already have ships in the gulf and might find themselves in an equally dangerous confrontation. After the 9/11 attacks, several European navies (as well as Australia’s and Canada’s) sent large forces to augment the United States effort in safeguarding the sea lanes of the Middle East from terrorism. The Bush administration should harness this coalition by asking them to let Tehran know through their own diplomatic channels that any attempt by the Revolutionary Guards to interfere with the free navigation of international waters will be treated no differently from a terrorist attack.
Iran’s motivations are not entirely clear. It may be that this systematic harassment is an attempt to ascertain the American rules of engagement. It may also reflect increased Iranian hubris. Or it may be an initiative of local commanders acting without permission from the Tehran government, which would appear to have little to gain by blatantly threatening the United States. While the Revolutionary Guard’s orders originate from the central government, its commanders are given considerable autonomy. Still, whatever the motivations, the United States and its allies must make clear that it is Tehran’s responsibility to control all its forces and that it will be held accountable for their actions.
If Iran is determined to have a clash at sea, our military response should be forceful and precise, one that would remove the threat to the sea lanes while reducing the chance of escalation and minimizing the chances of a wider war. History — the events of 1988 — suggests that such a measured use of force is not only possible but can be effective.
If, say, the current quarrel escalated into isolated firefights, the Iranian-held Abu Musa Island, near the Strait of Hormuz, and Farsi Island, near Kuwait, would be logical targets for a measured American military response. Both have Revolutionary Guard Corps bases and have long been key cogs in the Iranian military machine in the Persian Gulf. (And in the case of Abu Musa, Iran’s ownership is disputed by the United Arab Emirates.)
While some Americans may fear limited military action would bring about Iranian escalation or terrorist attacks, in the past, Iran has tended to respond to direct action by modifying its actions and bending to American pressure. Because the American military refrained from attacking the Iranian mainland in 1988, Iran understood the limited nature of the war and acted with similar restraint. In fact, the episode seemed to do us political good within the Islamic regime, as some of the hawks who had initially advocated the military confrontation soon found themselves out of favor.
A full-scale war with Iran would not be in America’s interests. But there is a world of difference between reacting to provocation by Revolutionary Guard boats and bombing sovereign territory. History shows that a tough but measured military response to Iranian harassment may lessen the odds of a much bigger clash down the road.

David B. Crist served in the Marine Corps reserves in Iraq in 2003.
I agree with most of what he says, but if the Iranians were sending their ships to the Gulf of Mexico to protect Cuba and spy on the US, what would have the US have done in responce?
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
That was supposed to be a martyrs operation against the US naval, although not a conventional martyrs attack. In that the US were meant to attack the Iran boats.

Iran could dispute the communication between the Iranian speedboats and the US ships. Thus creating an act of war without Iran directly targeting the US.

This would give Iran a legitimate reason to increase their operations against the US inside of Iraq, because the US had just committed an act of war against Iran. In that case, the Iranians underestimated the intellect of their adversary. Now due to the US listing the IRG as a terror organization, would the world classify that as war. It certainly would not lead to any acceptance of Iranian tactics inside Iraq against the US.

An operation like that they would have to knock back candidates.

Everybody thinks the President was in the region for peace in 12 months between Israel and the PA. He was there to protect coalition personnel in Iraq from Iranian interference.

things are moving under the surface.
Referring to my earlier post, I was right.
The points to consider are the following:
1) They tested to see if they could get a speedboat within contact / point blank attacking range, and
2) They attempted to get the US to shoot at them, regardless of what weapon.

<snip>

The transmissions possibly did not come from the boats, but by another vessel or ground station nearby. In any case, this could be the defence put forward by the Revolutionary Guard if there was an altercation, even if they did send them from the boats or from a directly supporting establishment or vessel.
Whether intentionally broadcast by the Iranians from a different location or from that radio loon that no-one seems to be able to track down, it doesn't matter. (Given the message contents and timing, I find it hard to believe it is this random chap) Either way you look at it, the intentions of the boats was to get the US to shoot, and although I am relieved that no-one lost their lives in this incident, it raises the questions:
1) Will next time, the boats be actually loaded (a la USS Cole)?
2) Will the boats be Iranian military next time?
3) Will the US, in light of this exchange, change their procedures and be more or less flexible with respect to the ROE?

I believe the US should set a clear standard and make it publicly known in the area of exactly how close they are going to let anyone get. Otherwise, you may just get non-military folks zooming out there to test it all out, and actually getting it into their heads that they could pull off an attack themselves.

i say we should have blew them away the first time they said they are goin to blow us up. or i would send the marines my favorite military
This seems rather inflammatory, and isn't adding to the discussion.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
Update!

Order given to fire on Iranian speedboat, but it turned away: Mullen

The commander of a US warship gave the order to fire on an approaching Iranian speedboat in the Strait of Hormuz last month but it turned away just in time, the US military chief said Wednesday.
No shots were fired during the incident which occurred January 6 when Iranian boats approached three US warships at high speed as they transited the strait at the mouth of the Gulf.

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Order_given_to_fire_on_Iranian_spee_02062008.html
I wonder how close those boats were from them at that point? IMO, they should start negotiating an agreement for prevention of naval accidents, like with the Soviet Navy in the Cold War!
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
Admiral Fallon resigns as CENTCOM chief!

Fallon resigns as Mideast military chief

Mideast commander abruptly retires after criticizing Bush's Iran policy
McClatchy Newspapers via Yahoo! News - 43 minutes ago WASHINGTON — Adm. William J. Fallon, the commander of all U.S. military operations in the Middle East, abruptly ended his nearly 42-year military career Tuesday with a phone call from Iraq in which he asked to resign because of controversy caused by his criticism of the Bush administration's Iran policy.
Top U.S. Commander in Mideast to Retire Early
New York Times - Mar 11 12:59 PM Adm. William J. Fallon, whose views on Iran and other issues have seemed to put him at odds with the Bush administration, is retiring early, the Pentagon said.
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=Admiral+William+J.+Fallon&fr=&ei=UTF-8
To me, it's not good news- whoever replaces him will not be capable of preventing score settling with Iran, if that's where the US is heading.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Fallon resigns as Mideast military chief



To me, it's not good news- whoever replaces him will not be capable of preventing score settling with Iran, if that's where the US is heading.
And what makes you think that anyone in that position would be able to prevent what the Commander in Chief wants, regardless if he opposed a conflict or not with Iran if ordered to conduct such a mission he is obligated to carry it out.
 
And what makes you think that anyone in that position would be able to prevent what the Commander in Chief wants, regardless if he opposed a conflict or not with Iran if ordered to conduct such a mission he is obligated to carry it out.
Can't a Commander resigned if he/she doesn't believe in the mission for what ever reason?
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
According to the UCMJ, only lawful orders are to be carried out. If anyone in military uniform believes that they are given an unlawful order, or set of orders, it's their duty not to follow it/them- otherwise they could be court-martialed and/or tried in the Nurenberg style for war crimes.
Col. W. Patrick Lang, a former intelligence officer on the Middle East for the DIA, told the Washington Post last week that Fallon had said privately at the time of his confirmation that an attack on Iran "isn't going to happen on my watch." When asked how he could avoid such a conflict, Fallon reportedly responded, "I have options, you know." Lang said he interpreted that comment as implying Fallon would step down rather than follow orders to carry out such an attack.
..Even before assuming his new post at Centcom, Fallon expressed strong opposition in mid-February to a proposal for sending a third U.S. aircraft carrier to the Persian Gulf, to overlap with two other carriers, according to knowledgeable sources. The addition of a third carrier was to part of a broader strategy then being discussed at the Pentagon to intimidate Iran by making a series of military moves suggesting preparations for a military strike.
The plan for a third carrier task force in the Gulf was dropped after Fallon made his views known.
Fallon reportedly made his opposition to a strike against Iran known to the White House early on in his tenure, and his role as Centcom commander would have made it very difficult for the Bush administration to carry out a strike against Iran, because he controlled all ground, air, and naval military access to the region. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JC13Ak01.html

My guess is that the real reason for moving Fallon out is not Iran but Iraq, and that he is being made to step down for the same reason that Donald Rumsfeld was. He does not agree with the long-term troop escalation or 'surge' in Iraq. He doesn't believe that counter-insurgency will work in Iraq in the medium term. And as an admiral, he has his eye on potential trouble spots such as Taiwan and North Korea, and is frustrated that the hands of the US are tied as long as it is bogged down in the Iraq quagmire. Having such a big dissenter as CENTCOM commander is inconvenient for the Republican Party at a time when John McCain is admitting that if he fails to convince the American people that the surge is succeeding, he will lose the presidency. That is, Fallon may have run afoul not of Cheney on Iran but McCain on Iraq. This may be Bush's first favor to the Republican nominee, who after all had a career as a naval officer himself. http://www.juancole.com/
Or it could be about both Iran & Iraq!
6 Signs the U.S. May Be Headed for War in Iran

US: Syria backs foreign fighters in Iraq
 
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Izzy2

Banned Member
In peace time yes, during war the request has to be approved as Mr. Gates has granted.
Have we ever had a true test of, certainly within Western Law, where a serving soldier has trully refused an order? Please tell me if I am wrong?? I just don't recall such an event...

How would we consider another Lt. Calley trial nowadays?

And this has nothing to do with the IRGC...

Yet, I highly recommend Prof. Anthony Cordesman & Martin Kleiber's 'Iran's Military Forces and Warfighting Capabilities' - Praeger, London. (a bit pricey, but availiable on Amazon).
 
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Firehorse

Banned Member
Lt. Watada has refused going to Iraq. And there are plenty of other examples!-
In a remarkable protest from inside the ranks of the military, First Lieut. Ehren Watada has become the Army's first commissioned officer to publicly refuse orders to fight in Iraq on grounds that the war is illegal. The 28-year-old announced his decision not to obey orders to deploy to Iraq in a video press conference June 7, saying, "My participation would make me party to war crimes." ..Watada also concluded that "my moral and legal obligation is to the Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders." ..In 2004, Petty Officer Pablo Paredes refused to board his Iraq-bound ship in San Diego Harbor, claiming to be a conscientious objector. At his court-martial, Paredes testified that he was convinced that the Iraq War was illegal. National Lawyers Guild president-elect Marjorie Cohn presented evidence to support his claim. The military judge, Lieut. Cmdr. Robert Klant, accepted Paredes's war-crimes defense and refused to send him to jail. The government prosecutor's case was so weak that Cohn, in a report published on Truthout.org, noted that Klant declared ironically, "I believe the government has just successfully proved that any seaman recruit has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."
One of Germany's highest courts heard a case last year regarding a German soldier who refused to participate in military activities as part of the US-led coalition in Iraq. The Federal Administrative Court issued a long and detailed decision in his favor, saying, "There were and still are serious legal objections to the war against Iraq...relating to the UN Charter's prohibition of the use of violence and other provisions of international law."
..According to USA Today, at least 8,000 service members have deserted since the Iraq War began. The Guardian reports that there are an estimated 400 Iraq War deserters in Canada, of whom at least twenty have applied for asylum. An Army spokesman says that ten other servicemen besides Watada have refused to go to Iraq. Resistance in the military played a critical role in ending the French war in Algeria, the Israeli occupation of Lebanon and the American war in Vietnam. Such resistance not only undermines the capacity of a government to conduct wars; it also challenges the moral claims that are used to justify them and inspires others to examine their own responsibilities. ..
"It is my duty not to follow unlawful orders and not to participate in things I find morally reprehensible."
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/brecherwebvideo
I'm sure there are others, besides those mentioned above .
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
According to the UCMJ, only lawful orders are to be carried out. If anyone in military uniform believes that they are given an unlawful order, or set of orders, it's their duty not to follow it/them- otherwise they could be court-martialed and/or tried in the Nurenberg style for war crimes.
Or it could be about both Iran & Iraq!
6 Signs the U.S. May Be Headed for War in Iran

US: Syria backs foreign fighters in Iraq
That would not be deemed a unlawful order, you take a oath to protect and to serve against enemie`s within and enemies abroad, he is not qualified nor is he within his rights to make decisions against the Commander in Chief.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Lt. Watada has refused going to Iraq. And there are plenty of other examples!-


I'm sure there are others, besides those mentioned above .
He is a coward who has the backing from a few Democrats who have decided to turn this into a publicity stunt to rub it into the Republicans faces. They should set the example with him and award him hard labor and give him a dishonorable discharge to boot. But hey Firehorse - we could be like the Chinese and just award him a double tap to the skull and be done with it right. You are not a soldier so you wouldn`t know what it means to take a oath to serve your country during peace time or during war, matter of fact you are more comfortable posting rubbish like this so that some people from the Middle East and Europe can vent their displeasure with my country.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In your judgement, who is qualified to decide the legality of orders given? IMHO, Admiral Fallon is!
You are full of it and do not have a clue on what you are taliking about, all you are trying to do is entice anti American sentiment on this forum.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In peace time yes, during war the request has to be approved as Mr. Gates has granted.
Technically (legally), the USA are at peace at the moment though.

The operations in Iraq and Afghanistan run only on a authorization of force, not under official declarations of war by congress. This has been explicitly stated such by Gonzales in a Senate Judiciary Hearing.

On another note, he's turning 64 in December and has 42 years of service in his name.
Meaning he already got a deferment (by Rumsfeld?) so he could serve beyond the mandatory retirement age at 40 years of service. Unless he gets a deferment by Bush (would have been unlikely anyway i guess), he should be out by the end of the year.
 
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