Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

So to even think about let IPTN build 80 in just four YEARS.....

For one thing DI is not involve with C295 manufacturing. I suspect they will work with Airbus Military with DI doing final integration and DI only doing CN 235 production line. Still I agree 80 is ambitious plan. However what this part shown, MinDef will use CN 235/295 as their platform for not only transport but also more likely any special purpose airframes.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I just found out kniw that TNI-AU is in the possession of the QW-19. When did they received it and when does Indonesia ordered this system?
I also wonder why they ordered the QW-19 instead of more QW-3. Is the QW-19 better, or is the reason because of the different guidance system? Or is the the QW-3 not anymore in production?

Indonesian Air Force Enhances Technical Skills with QW-3 and QW-19 Missile Training

Colonel Tek Sapta Jengkar Pamuji of the Indonesian Air Force inaugurates a technical skills training program for the QW-3 and QW-19 missiles, aimed at improving TNI AU personnel's proficiency.

military.news

 

[tonnyc]

I just found out kniw that TNI-AU is in the possession of the QW-19. When did they received it and when does Indonesia ordered this system?
I also wonder why they ordered the QW-19 instead of more QW-3. Is the QW-19 better, or is the reason because of the different guidance system? Or is the the QW-3 not anymore in production?

Indonesian Air Force Enhances Technical Skills with QW-3 and QW-19 Missile Training

Colonel Tek Sapta Jengkar Pamuji of the Indonesian Air Force inaugurates a technical skills training program for the QW-3 and QW-19 missiles, aimed at improving TNI AU personnel's proficiency.

military.news

The article you linked mentioned that the training happened in 29 May 2024. This is the earliest mention I can find of the missile in the hands of Indonesian Air Force, so I am guessing the missiles arrived shortly before the training session.

As to when they ordered it, there is no publicly available data that I can find. However, this video has a screenshot at 0:18 showing a blog (Indomiliter) article dated 19 January 2023. The article has been deleted but I believe the order was formalized around that date.

As to why Q-19, dunno. My guess is that QW-19 is simply the latest version of QW-3?

 

[Ananda]

you happy with the selection of Rafale and potentially the F-15EX's? From a logistical and training POV, operating four different fast jet designs does seem a little challenging? I get the want to both diversify from a single supplier as well as technology transfer promoting local industry but surely they must be pain to train, maintain and support so many platforms.

I know Probowo was heavily involved with both new deals but one wonders why he didn't approach China to tender? From inauguration he seemed pretty keen to develop the relationship which makes me question why he didn't go there?

@downunderblue I answer your question in Indonesian AF thread, as it is more appropriate. If you look back on pages in this thread, your question has been discussed for years by is the Indonesian members, or by some others members that take interest on Indonesian defence development.

So to make it short (as being talk before in this thread).

1. Indonesian defence procurement being influence more by politics (external and internal) avove matters that related to logistics.
2. Personally I prefer Rafale over F-15EX mostly due to it's being procured quite in numbers. In fact 42 Rafale procurement is basically the biggest Indonesian AF relative done, asside Soekarno era procurement in 60's.
3. Dasault also already offer for more Rafale at the cost of taking either F-15EX or KF-21 order. Either way, the question now are both politics and budget balancing.
4. However with Trump actions, the calculation for F-15EX or Blackhawk or other US defense items are changing. The calculation for negotiations with US also changing. What will be the outcome still in nego.

As for China defense items, asside some missiles more likely the noise is getting Type 52D Destroyer. Indonesia like other ASEAN now sandwich between China and US. Everyone increase their defense spending, but also continue need to balance. ASEAN are increasingly dependence on China Supply Chain and Investment. However can't ignore US Market, US Investment and more importantly US defense items to balance China ones.

It is interesting time to live at this moment.

 

[Ananda]

the acquisition of the EMB-314 instead of more KT-1Bs was a mistake.
More AH-64E, Mi-35P or armed NBell 412, NBO-105 or AS555 and UAVs are maybe better suitable for fighting OPM-terrorists.

@Sandhi Yudha let's back to this thread on answering that. Yes that's also my personal believe as defense enthusiasts. However seems the AF has other thought on getting Turboprop COIN fighter. Perhaps AF and MinDef has different calculation.

Still as amateur enthusiasts I still don't see the need for COIN instead some other helicopters gunships or even UCAV at this moment. But what do I know

 

[Ananda]

MinDef put happy birthday TNI-AU poster in their social media. Background are Rafale and F-16V. Is my wish to drop F-15EX and back to F-16V happening ?

For one thing if this is being choose it is also realistically more affordable option. It is also still give bargaining to US to keep US procurement in this Trump Trade saga. Well who knows, one enthusiasts like me can still keep hoping.

 

[Ananda]

Keris FB put this map on distribution of TNI-AU Air Base and AB that has organic squadrons. The AB that has no organic squadrons, means they can only support planes on temporary operational basis. The AB that supports the organic squadrons also usually accompanied by technical squadrons that supports the types organic in that base.

There's conflicting numbers on how many actually C130 that TNI-AU has in inventory. The map shown the 3 squadrons Heavy Transport (C130 classified as Heavy Transport in TNI-AU), 31st, 32nd, and 33rd operator total of 40 planes. This consist of C-130B (some already retired), C-130H, L-100-30 and C-130J. Medium Transport consist of C235/295 of 15 planes, and Light Transport consist of NC-212 of 13 planes.

There's speculation that A400 will have new squadron build on them, but seems I suspect they will also initialy going to be inducted in existing C130 sq, potentially 31st.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 52634

Keris FB put this map on distribution of TNI-AU Air Base and AB that has organic squadrons. The AB that has no organic squadrons, means they can only support planes on temporary operational basis. The AB that supports the organic squadrons also usually accompanied by technical squadrons that supports the types organic in that base.

There's conflicting numbers on how many actually C130 that TNI-AU has in inventory. The map shown the 3 squadrons Heavy Transport (C130 classified as Heavy Transport in TNI-AU), 31st, 32nd, and 33rd operator total of 40 planes. This consist of C-130B (some already retired), C-130H, L-100-30 and C-130J. Medium Transport consist of C235/295 of 15 planes, and Light Transport consist of NC-212 of 13 planes.

There's speculation that A400 will have new squadron build on them, but seems I suspect they will also initialy going to be inducted in existing C130 sq, potentially 31st.

Thank you for sharing.
Yes, i was also surprised by that huge amount, 39 C-130s (excluding the KC-130B) can not be correct.

Until now it was stated that the 24 (minus 1) second hand F-16C/D Block 25 fighters would be devided between SkU 3 and 16. But now we can see that SkU 3 keep all the original 10 F-16A/B and the second hands are actually devided between SkU 16 and 14. So it is good to see that SkU 14 is operational again with its own fighters jets.

 

[Ananda]

was also surprised by that huge amount, 39 C-130s (excluding the KC-130B) can not be correct

If we only calculate the procurement of C-130B and C130H, yes that number is too big. From what I gather from 12 C-130H bought in 80's, 10 operational and now being refurbished with GMF and DI. 9 ex RAAF C-130H, 8 operational and from C-130B about 5 already refurbished to C-130H standard (done few years back in US), others being retired.

Thus it is put 23 C-130H standard plus 1 KC-130B, put 24 plus 5 brand new C-130J. All should be 29. However what's not clear is the number of L-100-30 ex Merpati and Pelita Air, which from my understanding all being relegated to TNI-AU operational. Some say Both Merpati and Pelita procured 6 L-100-30 each, some other sources say they both procure 4 each. Either way with L-100-30 and C-130J, the numbers should be in 30's. However I'm bit surprise with the 39 operational C-130 number too.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia: T625 Gökbey’s First Export Destination? | TURDEF

turdef.com

https://x.com/T_Nblty/status/1910335285386174688?s=19

Turkiye media talk on Indonesia interest for T625 Gokbey helicopter. This is TAI Helicopter build with AW cooperation. Not clear yet from Indonesian sources, but if this is being taken and with potentially DI involvement, it is basically going to replace Bell 412.

 

[koxinga]

Really, we wanna go there again?

Indonesia keen to partake in Turkish "Kaan" fighter jet development

President Prabowo Subianto informed his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, of Indonesia's keenness to participate in the joint development of the ...

en.antaranews.com

 

[Ananda]

Keris FB page couple days ago shown budget allocations from MinDef for this year payment on KFX/IFX participation. It is IDR 1.32 T, or USD 80 Mio or KRW 114 Bio. So the money trail despite all the drama shown Indonesia still participate in KFX program.

Thus unless Prabowo's speech on KAAN participation back it up by money trail, then it is political 'interest'. I believe now any international partner will becarefull with Indonesia political 'interest', if it is not back it up by enough money trail commitment.

That T625 Gokbey (AW 139 derivatives) is in my opinion more likely to be participate by Indonesia then this KAAN. Then again all back to money trail.

 

[Ananda]

Kris FB put this couple hours ago. From several Indonesian Enthusiasts sites, their site seems have more 'info' on procurement contract before become public. It's been couple months since Prabowo take office circulating that some contract that's being freeze going to be restart.

Su-35 is going to be restart but without using overseas credit line, however direct IDR-Ruble payment scheme. Means this using domestic Financial Institutions similar from what I hear procurement with Turkiye (as difficulty find Euro FI that want to finance with lower interest).

While Mirage 2000-5 means some kind of deal with Qatar already settled. This means the 'interim fighters' will still pursue. Seems it is also being speculate as going to be IDR financing.

There's talk that with Su-35 coming, only Su-30 will be maintain and all Su-27 going to be replace. Some talks the number of Su-35 will only be 5-6 just enough to replace Su-27, while Su-30 going to be refurbished using kits from Belarusian. However it is also could be directly from Russia with kits that put Su-30 in same class with Su-35 avionics and sensors.

If that happened means the Flankers will still be 1 Sq and Mirage 2000-5 also 1 Sq. This related with the idea that the F-16 squadrons will be temporary unavailable with their refurbishment to Turkiye Ozgur or V equivalent.

 

[tonnyc]

Welp, I hope the rumour stays a rumour because if that becomes reality, that's a step backward in our modernization attempt.

 

[Ananda]

I put the 'rumours' from Kris FB, cause so far their procurement project rumours have better accuracies then other sites, including from Frenchie Salesman. I don't like the idea they are continue the Mirage 2000-5 and Su-35 project.

However this smells too much political compromises. Prabowo's always has good relationships with Qatar and Su-35 local proponents come from political factions that Prabowo's want to embrace (rather becoming opposition). Off course it is not the only reason, but politics always on top then logistical defenses consideration.

Personally I also hope this not going to happen, bit there's too much noises from other sources (including finance people) that talk some 'problematic financing' MinDef projects can be reopen with local IDR financing scheme using domestic FI.

 

[koxinga]

It will be a poor decision and use of resource. Not only is one type (M2000-5) old and adds a new logistic tail, the other type (SU-35) being acquired in small quantities.

While the SU-30 can be upgraded with similar electronics, there are notable differences (AL-31/AL-41). It's a bit like perpetuating previously bad decisions (27/30) with another mixed fleet (30/35).

That and the fact that Prabowo cutting government spending/budget, but still throwing money at what is politically expedient is jarring.

 

[tonnyc]

I mean, if we want to throw money at the Russians, buy their nuclear power plants. Those are actually good. Not cutting edge, but still damn good. And we'll get something with clear utility.

As for the Mirage 2000... WTF are they good for? If shit happens between us and Australia or Singapore, or god forbid, China, the Mirage 2000 will get trounced. Whereas if it's with weaker neighbours like Philippine or Malaysia, we don't need the Mirage 2000. Just giving the money away to Qatar would have been better, because at least that will not cost us maintenance and fuel.

From the gossip I get, the Mirage 2000 was our attempt to get some sort of freebie for the Rafale purchase. France, or maybe Dassault, offered to hook us with retired Qatari Mirage 2000 for cheap. If that was true, I can't fault the French for trying to sell obsolete stuff because even if we paid a dollar for those, that's still a dollar extra that they won't get otherwise. Plus if that made us go away instead of pestering them for offsets and freebies, hey, good for them. But if our government took that offer, then fuck me because that's stupid.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 52641

Kris FB put this couple hours ago. From several Indonesian Enthusiasts sites, their site seems have more 'info' on procurement contract before become public. It's been couple months since Prabowo take office circulating that some contract that's being freeze going to be restart.

Su-35 is going to be restart but without using overseas credit line, however direct IDR-Ruble payment scheme. Means this using domestic Financial Institutions similar from what I hear procurement with Turkiye (as difficulty find Euro FI that want to finance with lower interest).

While Mirage 2000-5 means some kind of deal with Qatar already settled. This means the 'interim fighters' will still pursue. Seems it is also being speculate as going to be IDR financing.

There's talk that with Su-35 coming, only Su-30 will be maintain and all Su-27 going to be replace. Some talks the number of Su-35 will only be 5-6 just enough to replace Su-27, while Su-30 going to be refurbished using kits from Belarusian. However it is also could be directly from Russia with kits that put Su-30 in same class with Su-35 avionics and sensors.

If that happened means the Flankers will still be 1 Sq and Mirage 2000-5 also 1 Sq. This related with the idea that the F-16 squadrons will be temporary unavailable with their refurbishment to Turkiye Ozgur or V equivalent.

Well, i don't need to add my opinion about the Mirage 2000-5 acquisition, because it is the same with the other members' opinion here. If this acquisition is done to please Qatar, it would be better to just buy oil from them.

And about the Su-35, one word appears in my mind..... CAATSA!
How is the procurement now suddenly possible? Plans for the Su-35 started during the first Jokowi-administration, those plans were frozen because of CAATSA (and maybe some other additional reasons like insufficient offset deals, transfer of technology etc).

Perhaps the relationship between Trump and Putin is that good, that he doesn't plan to punish countries forn buying Russian defence equipment. Or maybe he will allow it in exchange for something else, like Indonesia buying more F-16s or C-130J-30s...

 

[Ananda]

The rumours that I heard the Qatari Mirage 2000-5 deal are not related to French/Dasault. However related to Prabowo's and Qatar Emir. It is related to Qatar Investment deal, and Qatar wants to get rid their Mirage as they don't have manpower to keep operating them, when their Rafale come. The cost of contract from what I heard is related to Qatar inventory of parts for those Mirage that being 'rumours' able to support that 12 fighter fleet for at least a decade.

If it is true then as interim fighters those Mirage can serve while waiting for either Rafale operational and F-16 finish upgrade to Ozgur standard. Thus if the 'rumours' actually true that those Mirage also being followed by enough parts to maintain them for more then a decade. It is basically like a Dry Lease contract to keep them in inventory until the designated fighters come to operation.

if we want to throw money at the Russians, buy their nuclear power plants. Those are actually good. Not cutting edge, but still damn good. And we'll get something with clear utility

I believe the deal with Rosatom still in process for nuclear reactor in Kalimantan. The deal for Su-35 is in my opinion more questionable then Qatari Mirage 2000-5. The Qatari Mirage contract from what I gather is being delayed only, while Su-35 original contract is actually being stop and the budget allocated already used for Rafale first batch of six.

So more plausible explanation on Qatar Mirage deals (not like it, but can find some explanation on that), but personally I don't find good explanation on Su-35 deal. Other then internal political bargaining with Russian Sales Guys that have good relationship with certain political faction.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The rumours that I heard the Qatari Mirage 2000-5 deal are not related to French/Dasault. However related to Prabowo's and Qatar Emir. It is related to Qatar Investment deal, and Qatar wants to get rid their Mirage as they don't have manpower to keep operating them, when their Rafale come. The cost of contract from what I heard is related to Qatar inventory of parts for those Mirage that being 'rumours' able to support that 12 fighter fleet for at least a decade.

If it is true then as interim fighters those Mirage can serve while waiting for either Rafale operational and F-16 finish upgrade to Ozgur standard. Thus if the 'rumours' actually true that those Mirage also being followed by enough parts to maintain them for more then a decade. It is basically like a Dry Lease contract to keep them in inventory until the designated fighters come to operation.



I believe the deal with Rosatom still in process for nuclear reactor in Kalimantan. The deal for Su-35 is in my opinion more questionable then Qatari Mirage 2000-5. The Qatari Mirage contract from what I gather is being delayed only, while Su-35 original contract is actually being stop and the budget allocated already used for Rafale first batch of six.

So more plausible explanation on Qatar Mirage deals (not like it, but can find some explanation on that), but personally I don't find good explanation on Su-35 deal. Other then internal political bargaining with Russian Sales Guys that have good relationship with certain political faction.

In that case it would be better if Indonesia continue with the BT-3F and BMP-3F order, something which Korps Marinir really requires.