Ahmad
Active Member
Yup. correct. Army has shown interest to buy more Apache but they let President to decide.
Indonesian Aero News
- Thread starter Ananda
- Start date
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Yes the army has requested multiple types of helicopters, but we all know that our amazing president is not the one who make that decision.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
This video was posted some days ago, visible is TS-2703, an Su-27SKM which seems to be back in the sky after 2 years. Why was it grounded for so long, some structural damage during a rough landing, or somethjng else?
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Its a small aircraft, but still an important, historic and great moment for the Indonesian aerospace industry.
At last...
Edit: IPTN just received, yesterday on 28 December, the Type Certificate for the N219. They really worked hard to achieve this before years end.
At last...
Edit: IPTN just received, yesterday on 28 December, the Type Certificate for the N219. They really worked hard to achieve this before years end.
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Can't read the text because don't know the language, but gather that it's successfully completed its maiden flight. Well done and congratulations to all those involved.
Ah, more than that. The N-219 officially received its type-certification. You have read our discussions on the aircraft so you have some idea on how much we wish this aircraft success. If it's successful then we will have a decent commercial base that we can work from.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #1,707
Indonesia appears likely to withdraw from joint fighter jet project
Korea’s ambitious indigenous fighter jet project may end up costing taxpayers much more than they bargained for, as its partner Indonesia toys with pulling out from the program altogether.
koreajoongangdaily.joins.com
South Korean more and more question Indonesia intentions on KFX. No official statement from Indonesian side, however they see that potential deal with Rafale can be sign Indonesia pulling out from KFX.
This is also what I have talk before in previous posts concerning potential Indonesia involvement with other Fighter project. As I have mentioned before in 2015, Airbus already offer under license program for Eurofighter including software access. If either Rafale or Airbus Eurofighter open total license including software access and development, this can be more interesting compared to KFX which being rumours that KAI won't give full access to the system and software development to DI. That kind of deal that Embrear has with Saab on Gripen NG.
Don't know how the Korean/KAI will counter. There's rumours that Indonesia if move out from KFX, will going to deal on FA-50 license, as TNI-AU also has need for larger fleet of LIFT/LCA.
One thing that I can see as sign, if Indonesia decide to buy more second hand aircraft (either F-16 or Eurofighter) and doing Upgrade projects (some domestically), that could be sign Indonesia will stay with KFX.
However if they go with French for license project for Rafale or Airbus on Eurofighters, then it's mean Indonesia out from KFX. There's no way Indonesia has resources to participate with two license Manufacturing projects for 4.5 gen Fighters.
Ahmad
Active Member
@Sandhi Yudha you should instead post the English version buddy 
Alhamdulillah the certification has been completed.
Alhamdulillah the certification has been completed.
Ahmad
Active Member
The writer has made mistake that maybe intentional or might also be careless. Actually the parliamentary hearing was held in 9 September which is 15 days before the meeting with South Korean took place. It was Prabowo who want to leave the program but we know that Jokowi is the man that will likely determine the fate of the program, not Prabowo.Indonesia appears likely to withdraw from joint fighter jet project
Korea’s ambitious indigenous fighter jet project may end up costing taxpayers much more than they bargained for, as its partner Indonesia toys with pulling out from the program altogether.koreajoongangdaily.joins.com
South Korean more and more question Indonesia intentions on KFX. No official statement from Indonesian side, however they see that potential deal with Rafale can be sign Indonesia pulling out from KFX.
This is also what I have talk before in previous posts concerning potential Indonesia involvement with other Fighter project. As I have mentioned before in 2015, Airbus already offer under license program for Eurofighter including software access. If either Rafale or Airbus Eurofighter open total license including software access and development, this can be more interesting compared to KFX which being rumours that KAI won't give full access to the system and software development to DI. That kind of deal that Embrear has with Saab on Gripen NG.
Don't know how the Korean/KAI will counter. There's rumours that Indonesia if move out from KFX, will going to deal on FA-50 license, as TNI-AU also has need for larger fleet of LIFT/LCA.
One thing that I can see as sign, if Indonesia decide to buy more second hand aircraft (either F-16 or Eurofighter) and doing Upgrade projects (some domestically), that could be sign Indonesia will stay with KFX.
However if they go with French for license project for Rafale or Airbus on Eurofighters, then it's mean Indonesia out from KFX. There's no way Indonesia has resources to participate with two license Manufacturing projects for 4.5 gen Fighters.
Here is the news. So by saying the meeting happened in October it will look like Indonesia is not satisfied after the meeting took place in late September. DAPA official who understand the matter better than the journalist show more positive opinion about Indonesia position.
5 Jam Rapat Tertutup, Ini yang Dibahas Prabowo dengan Komisi I DPR - Tribunnews.com
Komisi I DPR RI menggelar rapat kerja dengan Menteri Pertahanan Prabowo Subianto, Rabu (9/9/2020).
www.tribunnews.com
The october news is about parliament member from PKS party that said Prabowo is not satisfied with the program that is actually stated by Prabowo in September meeting (before renegotiation meeting with SK), so the meeting was not held in October like that Korean news suggested. I have put September news to back it up. To make it clear, in October there was a discussion that invited one parliament member that later reveal about Prabowo position about the program.
Soal Proyek KFX/IFX, Pimpinan Komisi I: Mengutip Prabowo Di Rapat, Akan Dihentikan
Ada keinginan pemerintah Indonesia untuk menghentikan proyek bersama Korea Selatan dalam pengembangan pesawat tempur canggih Korea Fighter Xperiment/Indonesia Fighter Xperiment
politik.rmol.id
And talking about rumor of getting FA 50 license I think it is you who started it in which you only stated that it is the other possible option that could be taken where personally you also in favor of such option.......
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
And sorry, i already modify the text to give some more information in English.
I did not read the articles you posted, but of course i believe you about the dates of meetings.The writer has made mistake that maybe intentional or might also be careless. Actually the parliamentary hearing was held in 9 September which is 15 days before the meeting with South Korean took place. It was Prabowo who want to leave the program but we know that Jokowi is the man that will likely determine the fate of the program, not Prabowo.
Here is the news. So by saying the meeting happened in October it will look like Indonesia is not satisfied after the meeting took place in late September. DAPA official who understand the matter better than the journalist show more positive opinion about Indonesia position.
5 Jam Rapat Tertutup, Ini yang Dibahas Prabowo dengan Komisi I DPR - Tribunnews.com
Komisi I DPR RI menggelar rapat kerja dengan Menteri Pertahanan Prabowo Subianto, Rabu (9/9/2020).
The october news is about parliament member from PKS party that said Prabowo is not satisfied with the program that is actually stated by Prabowo in September meeting (before renegotiation meeting with SK), so the meeting was not held in October like that Korean news suggested. I have put September news to back it up. To make it clear, in October there was a discussion that invited one parliament member that later reveal about Prabowo position about the program.
Prabowo look like thinking that buying Rafale will please public when he watch Youtube "abal abal" with full of comments from ALAY groupsSoal Proyek KFX/IFX, Pimpinan Komisi I: Mengutip Prabowo Di Rapat, Akan Dihentikan
Ada keinginan pemerintah Indonesia untuk menghentikan proyek bersama Korea Selatan dalam pengembangan pesawat tempur canggih Korea Fighter Xperiment/Indonesia Fighter Xperiment
And talking about rumor of getting FA 50 license I think it is you who started it in which you only stated that it is the other possible option that could be taken where personally you also in favor of such option.......
Its also clear that minister Prabowo has a negative view on this project, but that Indonesia hasn't paid for many years and that the current administration totally dislike the KFX-project has nothing to do with him, it started many years ago, at the moment PDI-P came into power.
And if your president is that powerful (and positive about this program), he just would have continue this after he took over the job from the former president SBY.
Ahmad
Active Member
Yup as I said previously Jokowi is an economic centric guy which has sensitivity on any high tech home grown program if their budget reaches 1 trillion Rupiah ceiling, let alone 20 trillion Rupiah like KFX/IFX program. Despite so he is in my opinion still want to continue the program with some concession that he would like South Korea to give due to his sensitivity over the program cost. Jokowi is even greedy with Lapan program and fund the agency less than what the agency needs despite it is just additional hundreds billion Rupiah over 800 billion Rupiah budget that he approved (much of the budget of course will be absorbed to pay Lapan worker/researcher salary).
I hope Jokowi sensitivity over money get eroded due to massive Covid 19 stimulus budget that we currently have and also for 2021 period (Gov still continue stimulus program until 2021). He needs to look up on Saudi and UAE defense spending to get cured from his over sensitivity sickness.
Talking about the software I think DI will get the source code and this is why some years ago I read DI official said that one of the reasons KFX/IFX program is so valuable because we can upgrade the plane independently in Indonesia.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #1,712
That's only a rumours based only on your opinions. There's nothing on the project right now that saying DI can have total access to the system. This's one of the 'thing' behind Indonesia/DI dissatisfaction on the program. Even the Korean Media acknowledge that.
Again, the "IFX" can only be developed based on the 'license' that KAI approved. Saying that it can be developed independently as you claimed is misslead. It's one of the negotiations wich also involved on 'export' right, and so far the negotiations still has not reach any conclusions.
Based on what Indonesia wants, I'll be surprised if Korea accept that. Why will Korea give the Junior Partner license right for export and independent development, when the IP right and whole system access still control by them ?
IFX is only license Production of KFX, it will not be much different against license Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen that Brazil got from Sweden. DI final assembly license on KFX will be not much different then Final assembly facilities that Italy and Japan have as F-35 partners. The independent development so far is only on your wish, and not being approved by KAI.
Saying that MinDef taking this kind of decision based only due to Prabowo's watching some amateur opinions in you tube, showing your frustrations on his negotiations with French on Rafale, in the cost of your beloved IFX program.
I'm never a supporter of this administration, I also still give Prabowo's benefits of doubt due to dismal performance of his predecessor. However whether he go with Rafale or Eurofighter, if it's not involved large scale ToT and work share job for DI, then it's Political suicide. I'll be surprised if Jokowi's will agree on that, since it's contradict with his position on giving Indonesia defense Industry (in this case DI) work share for learning curve in fighter program.
Your support for IFX put you on bias thinking, that doesn't see there're several other programs from other potential Partners that can also give DI access on Fighters development learning curve.
Actually it's based on DI's opinion in media during Jokowi's first term. DI's hoping to get assembly rights or even license rights for TA/FA-50 if TNI-AU decide to increase the numbers. It's part of TNI-AU plan to increase the numbers of Sq as plan. There's no way Indonesia can get newly build Gen 4.5 Fighters more than 3 sq, whether it's Rafale, Eurofighter, F-16V or your beloved IFX.
Thus the rest can only be achieve by buying second hand fighters and doing upgrade job, or buying LCA/LIFT. If the latter that're going to be choose, then possibilities going to TA/FA-50.
Again it's rumours only, but based on potential scenario that TNI-AU calculate. For newly built Gen 4.5 will not be more than 3 sq, I'm quite confident on that, cause I don't hear it from MinDef guys. I heard it from my sources in Ministry of Finance and Bapenas. Whatever the choices, it will not be more than 3 sq for Gen 4.5 fighters. Off course it can be changed big Jokowi's decide to increase Defense allocation much more in the cost of his beloved other infrastructure projects.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Looking to the desire of TNI-AU of adding more fighter squadrins and the limited defence budget, the scenario Ananda posted here above, is only the best thing what can happen.
Replacing the three F-5 and Hawk squadrons while adding more fighter squadrons, all woth high-end 4,5 / 4++ generation fighters is sadly not possible.
The T-50/FA-50 has a limited fange
..... ill conytinur layer
Edit: my apologies, i was on that horrible bumpy Cikampek levelled tollroad east of Jakarta ("Terima kasih Bapak Presiden / Thank you Mister President!") while enjoying the view on the construction of Kereta Cepat Indonesia-China (brought to us by Beijing Yawan HSR Co.Ltd, PowerChina and SinoHydro).
Lets try again.
The T-50/FA-50 has a limited range, but KAI has the plan to add a refuel probe on the FA-50, which make longer patrols possible.
www.flightglobal.com
So licence-poduction of a couple of squadrons of improved FA-50 can be a good alternative for the KFX, if the Indonesian government wants to pull back.
Like we already said before, the point is that the current administration has to make a decision : continue with the KFX and pay for the participation, or pull back and come with an alternative.
Thats al we need.
Replacing the three F-5 and Hawk squadrons while adding more fighter squadrons, all woth high-end 4,5 / 4++ generation fighters is sadly not possible.
The T-50/FA-50 has a limited fange
..... ill conytinur layer
Edit: my apologies, i was on that horrible bumpy Cikampek levelled tollroad east of Jakarta ("Terima kasih Bapak Presiden / Thank you Mister President!") while enjoying the view on the construction of Kereta Cepat Indonesia-China (brought to us by Beijing Yawan HSR Co.Ltd, PowerChina and SinoHydro).
Lets try again.
The T-50/FA-50 has a limited range, but KAI has the plan to add a refuel probe on the FA-50, which make longer patrols possible.
KAI to modify FA-50 with Cobham refuelling probe
Cobham Mission Systems is to deliver an inflight refuelling capability for the Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) FA-50 combat aircraft. Announcing its selection as prime contractor for the modification on 2 December, the UK company said it will "design, develop and qualify a telescopic probe...
www.flightglobal.com
So licence-poduction of a couple of squadrons of improved FA-50 can be a good alternative for the KFX, if the Indonesian government wants to pull back.
Like we already said before, the point is that the current administration has to make a decision : continue with the KFX and pay for the participation, or pull back and come with an alternative.
Thats al we need.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Adding 3 sq of newly built twin engine Gen 4.5, either Rafale, Eurofighter, or KFX/IFX is only possible if they're sacrifice other projects.
The budget/Credit Line allocation that have been calculate is for 2 sq of F-16V and 1 sq of Su-35, and so far I have not heard any bigger allocation on Credit Line on the Fighter project besides that from Ministry of Finance and Bapenas.
There are talking on online forums and media on bigger allocation, however that come from MinDef sources. For me, unless it's already come from Ministry of Finance and Bapenas, it's still only MinDef submission. That's why personally I still think so far 3 sq of F-16V is the most probable based on budget/credit line allotment available. Unless they want to sacrifice other MinDef projects.
TNI-AU source already talked in media on potential for LCA/LIFT as replacement for Hawk 200/100 (which's LCA/LIFT it self) during First Term MinDef. IPTN during Soeharto era want to begin their learning curve also with LCA/LIFT which's Hawk 200/100. So it's probable they will go back to that step, instead jumping on licensing more advance Fighters as learning curve.
All possibility are there, it's all depends on how much this administration willingness on Investing on Aerospace learning curve. Jumping toward on licensing more advance Fighters project means more Investment for DI capabilities. Under present condition, this means sacrificing other projects.
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Ahmad
Active Member
You are the one that use rumor to your FA 50 story while my story comes from DI official quotes in a respected media directly. I will try to find the media and put it in here if I have enough time to search it.
Of course it is not an a license production, only you who determine to use that definition on Indonesia participation in the KFX/IFX program with the likely intention to make it sounds like KFX/IFX program is similar with license production of Rafale by Brazil which is not.
I believe we all know that license production is about doing manufacturing/assembling and do integration process on our own order and nothing to do with design contribution/design experience/ profit sharing/ production sharing like what happen with Indonesia participation in KFX/IFX program. Not to mention Indonesian Aerospace will become part of OEM for KFX/IFX program so that we can also do maintenance more independently that will reduce cost and overreliance on busy OEM like Lockheed Martin, where spare part may come much late like what has been revealed by Korean Airforce personnel.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #1,716
DI official at least in first term MinDef also that ones talk their interest in getting to TA/FA-50 work share if TNI-AU wants to order more TA/FA-50. However it's just talk in media and nothing substantial backing it up. That's what I say it as rumours.
Is official DI on media saying KAI will provide full access to software and systems just talk or already back it up by binding agreement ? If not it's still a 'rumours' since nothing substantial backing it up yet. Same DI internal sources also saying that KAI still hold full access to KFX system and sub system development. That's logical, since those are their IP. After all that part of negotiations. Thus nothing binding agreement that put that in writing yet. So again all you claim, just as my talk in FA-50 work share with DI is still rumours. Nothing substantial backing it up. Substantial in here means binding agreement.
Oh God, here we go again. Read what SAAB give Embrear in their license agreement for Gripen NG. They give Embrear as part manufacturing, they give Embrear to have abilities to do MRO for Gripen NG, and they give Embrear rights to sell Gripen NG in South America. The Embrear technicians also give full access to include in Gripen NG system development, in order to give Embrear abilities to upgrade and Integrate Gripen NG system for Brazilian AF system and weapons of their choosing.
However, since the IP still hold by SAAB, Embrear basically only got license Manufacturing rights. That's the idea of License Manufacturing, you licensing someone else IP for your own manufacturing. Any changes still need permission from the original IP holder. Including rights to export (if being given, which in case of Embrear they got it).
Is DI hold IP rights independently from KAI ? DI is only Junior Partner, thus IP rights still hold by KAI. Shown binding agreement that saying KAI give equal rights to KFX IP for IFX, thus DI can have rights to make changes or sell IFX without KAI consents. There's none, cause IP rights still hold by KAI.
This just like when you say all F-35 International Partner doesn't have rights on design and system of F-35. Turn out they got it. They got work share, they are included on OEM manufacturing, they can do full MRO facilities, however they're still (especially Italy and Japan that have final Production line) guess what, "License" manufacturing. This again since IP rights holder are LM. The other Partners can involved in design and parts manufacturing as license holder.
No difference with DI if Indonesia continue with KFX program. DI still only a junior partner that hold license Manufacturing for some parts and final assembly, under KAI supervision as IP holder.
Read again in what license manufacturer got from IP holder. It's will differed from one license agreement to other. Read what SAAB Give to Embrear, Read what International Partners on F35 has, Read what Sukhoi gave China or India on licensing Flankers. They have some different to each other, however they're all License Manufacturing Agreement. License for assembly, license for parts manufacturing, license for MRO, still overall basically License Agreement.
Again because they are not IP holder, they're not original manufacturing. Being part of OEM parts manufacturing is not mean you own the Original IP. TAI already involved with F-16 license Manufacturing as final assembly and OEM parts manufacturing. They can sell their parts to other F-16 users, however still under supervision and Agreement from LM. Because they are not IP holder.
You have been told many times already, however you keep your believe even can't provide evidence that KAI gave DI same IP rights. Without that DI still license Manufacturing for this KFX/IFX program. Not much different if they got license Manufacturing for Rafale, Eurofighter or F-16V, for example.
Is DI will have rights to manufacture ALL parts ? Since Korean Media still saying only some parts, under KAI supervision. That's license Manufacturing. Just like any license Holder, DI will need permission from KAI if they are going to sell parts or can only sell parts to KAI. All depends on the license agreement they got from KAI.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #1,717
I will put example on some of DI Production line up:
N219:
IP holder : DI and LAN
Legal Status for DI : Original Manufacturer.
CN235:
IP holder : IPTN/DI and CASA/Airbus Military
Legal Status for DI : Original Manufacturer.
NC212i:
IP holder : CASA/Airbus Military
Legal Status for DI : License Manufacturing
Super Puma/H225M:
IP holder : Aerospatiale/Airbus Helicopter
Legal Status for DI : License Manufacturing
As can be seen, License Manufacturing is not depend on how much work share that you have. However who has the legal rights (IP) ownership.
NC212i for example; basically the production line already move to DI facility in Bandung from Airbus facility in Seville. DI already got co-production rights from Airbus, and permission from Airbus to do some modifications to the design. Thus DI have minor IP right for NC212i. However since the main IP rights still in Airbus, and DI need clearance from Airbus for modifications and selling rights, then it's clear DI status is still as license manufacturer. Eventough DI already part of OEM and MRO for NC212i.
License Manufacturing is legal rights. It's not manufacturing work share or how big your access on doing MRO etc. Whether it's for Electronics, Car, Ships, Airplanes, and any products. If you manufacturing a product that the main legal IP right is own by someone else, then you are still doing License Manufacturing.
If you involved with design and system development (just like F-35 International Partner done), however the main IP Right hold by main manufacturer. Then the other Junior Partner is only holding license to manufacture. The main IP holder can legally take it back.
Again as long as KAI hold main IP rights, DI if involved with KFX program is legally only as License Manufacturing from KAI. Unless KAI want to share same IP rights with DI on KFX/IFX. This's what Turkey ask (when ask similar Share on the project). However Korean didn't want to share similar rights, thus they left for their own TFX project.
Junior Partner always legally only a license holder. As the main ownership (IP) rights on the project is with the original manufacturer. This is legal term, not manufacturing term.
N219:
IP holder : DI and LAN
Legal Status for DI : Original Manufacturer.
CN235:
IP holder : IPTN/DI and CASA/Airbus Military
Legal Status for DI : Original Manufacturer.
NC212i:
IP holder : CASA/Airbus Military
Legal Status for DI : License Manufacturing
Super Puma/H225M:
IP holder : Aerospatiale/Airbus Helicopter
Legal Status for DI : License Manufacturing
As can be seen, License Manufacturing is not depend on how much work share that you have. However who has the legal rights (IP) ownership.
NC212i for example; basically the production line already move to DI facility in Bandung from Airbus facility in Seville. DI already got co-production rights from Airbus, and permission from Airbus to do some modifications to the design. Thus DI have minor IP right for NC212i. However since the main IP rights still in Airbus, and DI need clearance from Airbus for modifications and selling rights, then it's clear DI status is still as license manufacturer. Eventough DI already part of OEM and MRO for NC212i.
License Manufacturing is legal rights. It's not manufacturing work share or how big your access on doing MRO etc. Whether it's for Electronics, Car, Ships, Airplanes, and any products. If you manufacturing a product that the main legal IP right is own by someone else, then you are still doing License Manufacturing.
If you involved with design and system development (just like F-35 International Partner done), however the main IP Right hold by main manufacturer. Then the other Junior Partner is only holding license to manufacture. The main IP holder can legally take it back.
Again as long as KAI hold main IP rights, DI if involved with KFX program is legally only as License Manufacturing from KAI. Unless KAI want to share same IP rights with DI on KFX/IFX. This's what Turkey ask (when ask similar Share on the project). However Korean didn't want to share similar rights, thus they left for their own TFX project.
Junior Partner always legally only a license holder. As the main ownership (IP) rights on the project is with the original manufacturer. This is legal term, not manufacturing term.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
How about the NBell-412EP, does IPTN still produce that one under licence? It seems that today Penerbad picked up a new built one.
I just found this.
This is around $100 million, right?
This can be the budget for some second hand trash (refurbished F-5E/F, F-7MG), but maybe its a downpayment/first deposit/uang muka for some good stuff...
I just found this.
This is around $100 million, right?
This can be the budget for some second hand trash (refurbished F-5E/F, F-7MG), but maybe its a downpayment/first deposit/uang muka for some good stuff...
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Ahmad
Active Member
This is what I get from their website:
PT. Dirgantara Indonesia (Persero)
www.indonesian-aerospace.com
They have shown a new Bell 412 in their one of the latest twit
In January 2019 there is new order for 8 H225M helicopter (+simulator) and 9 Bell 412 (combat configuration) helicopter. The contract includes spare parts and training as well.
H22M is seen in the production facility
Ahmad
Active Member
More like DP for second hand typhoon.