Indonesian Aero News

[Alvin-Jr]

Can anyone tell me why TNI-AU is practicing F-16 landings with arrester cable? It's not like they're going to land on an aircraft carrier. Or is it because that some of our AFB don't have the required runway length?

 

[tonnyc]

First, as far as I am aware, of the 16 T-50i purchased from South Korea, only 4 of them are weaponized in a configuration similar to TA-50. I can't even find credible verification on this, so it's possible none of them are. So is there something I missed when Ananda said TA-50 for counter-insurgency and Sandhi Yudha said 20 T-50i?

In general, I am aware that President-elect Joko Widodo's defense policy is unlikely to be as comprehensive as President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. However, I am convinced that the other presidential candidate, Mr. Prabowo, is worse overall due to his economic and political policies (which sums up to "Let's go back to Suharto's era").

Sandhi Yudha's concern regarding having combat aircrafts from multiple countries and multiple manufacturers are valid, but the situation he describes is actually better than the status quo. Right now the Indonesian Air Force already have Russian, American, South Korean, United Kingdom, and Brazilian. His list of combat aircrafts originates from 5 countries still, but with Sweden in lieu of the UK. However, it would replace the aging F-5 with brand new planes that is way more capable and if the transfer of technology from KFX and Gripen works as expected and Indonesia can manufacture some of the parts, the logistics would be easier still.

So I am cautiously optimistic. Optimistic because while Sandhi Yudha's estimation of what the Indonesian Air Force will look like during the Widodo government is perhaps not as good as it could be, but it is still a big improvement compared to the current situation. Cautious because what Ananda said regarding political will and challenges of the near future is pretty accurate.

One does hope that Indonesia's fuel subsidies are cut soon tthough. That is one big millstone around Indonesia's neck.

 

[Ananda]

First, as far as I am aware, of the 16 T-50i purchased from South Korea, only 4 of them are weaponized in a configuration similar to TA-50. I can't even find credible verification on this, so it's possible none of them are. So is there something I missed when Ananda said TA-50 for counter-insurgency and Sandhi Yudha said 20 T-50i?

My bad, There's typo on my post. I should wrote TA-50 for LIFT then COIN. Yes, what your info on TA-50/T-50i is simililar with what I gather which is 16 T-50i. However I got info (even though not highly reliable) the ones that already wired in same standard as TA-50 is 8 not 4. The other 8 still in T-50 standard, however with option to be wired as TA-50.

That source told me, 'if you want to know which one is wired like TA-50 and which one is wired like T-50, just look at their camoufladge pattern'. The one that has greyish-blue camoufladge is wired with TA-50 standard, the one that have camoufladge with blue-yellow pattern of the aerobatic team still wired on T-50 standard.
Like I said, is just a talk that I heard, not highly reliable eventhough that particullar source quite close to Mindef.

Anyway, for the F-5 replacement option seems from what I gather will be work in phases in conjuction later on with Hawk 200/100 replacement. That's why, the refurbishment program for Hawk 200/100 is not as extensive as for F-16 Block15 OCU (which will be modified/refurbished as extensive as those Block 25 refurbishement program). The Hawks practically only got new parts, just to ensure their operational readiness can get up to 2020.

In sense seems TNI-AU wants to tie the replecement program for up to 3 sq, which also seems one of the reason the F-5 replecement being delayed further on. Talking for 3 sq replacment (in the end) will be more attractive on dealing with supplier anyway.
Lookin on that logic, what SAAB offered perhaps can be more attractive then LM (which so far that I heard, only offer limited % offset contract to DI for Block 52+). However do not forgot EADS close relationship with DI/IAe, which offering their package of Eurofighter with strong Di/IAe involvement on manufacturing/assembly processed.

On paper, it can be affordable by the budget since it will be strech out for at least 8-10 years. Calculation for 3 sq (around 48-54 aircraft), with contract being signed 2015 and take at least 2 years to prepared DI facility. Initial 6-8 aircraft come from supplier, thus also take 2 years which will be run pararel with preparation on DI facility and training the resources. Then the rest 40-46 will be manufactured under license on DI which will take 6 years to complete or up to 2023-2024, which by that time the Hawks is already reached their replecement time.

What I'm questioning though again, if this is affordable if by that time period Indonesia (and thus DI) also commited for KFX. Some argue, that it still make sense, since the production phase of KFX will begin on 2023-2024, at time when the underlicensed Fighter project already finished, thus the Fighters assembly facility can be switched to KFX.

DI from what I heard, more inclined with EADS (Eurofighter project), since they have more experiences with EADS and Airbus on preparing projects and helping DI facilities and training their resources. In short:
(*): On Technical issue, EADS more preferable due to their closeness with DI.
(*): Overall package, SAAB provide attractive packages.
(*): Operational wise, time to delivered and logistical issue, go with LM.

Su-35 also being talked, but many sources that I heard begin to discounted them, since Su-35 it self is not ready for delivery outside Russia for some time.

Again, all of those option will back to progress on the new administration. I do not have problem with Jokowi, but I do have problem with the Party that behind him, and particularly Megawati as the Chairman. If Jokowi can proved independent and strong President than can not be dictated by His Party and more Importantly Megawati (which without doubt is the worst and most incompetent President in this Republic history), then we can have more optimistic view this can be implemented.
If what happen is the other way around..and we will have 5 years 'black' period for Indonesia all aspects, economy, defense, and Politics. The cutting on Fuel Subsidy is the first test for Him, but can be a proven ground on how able he can handle the country.

Oooo....Well..Just my ranting..

NB:
The Budget for production facility preparation in DI, has tobe either allocated through defense budget or government capital investment (outside defense budget). Just like the example for Goverment Capital Injection to PAL for Submarine manufacturing Yard, which just being approved recently. Without that, it's just a pipe dream.

The latter (Capital Injection outside defense budget), seems more likely to take, due to Indonesia lack political will to raise defense budget to 2% of GDP. This seems from what I heard, is the way they are going to take for KFX. The USD 2 bio budget for development stages (Indonesian portion) will be injected as part of Government 'bail-out' program to DI as part of Strategic Industrial rejunavation. It will be outside Defense budget, and part of Industrial Infrastructure initiative.

Now whether Jokowi Government has Political will on this, that remain to be seen.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

First, as far as I am aware, of the 16 T-50i purchased from South Korea, only 4 of them are weaponized in a configuration similar to TA-50. I can't even find credible verification on this, so it's possible none of them are. So is there something I missed when Ananda said TA-50 for counter-insurgency and Sandhi Yudha said 20 T-50i?
.

Sorry, my mistake, i mixed it up with the acquisition of the 20 KT-1Bs....
It looks like its Indonesian policy to buy downgraded toothless versions, which are later scheduled to be upgraded, but mostly only a small part of it ..... or often still less than the initial plan...

If Jokowi can proved independent and strong President than can not be dictated by His Party and more Importantly Megawati (which without doubt is the worst and most incompetent President in this Republic history)

100% agree, together with Gusdur.

 

[Ananda]

RI, South Korea to reach deal on phase II of KFX/ IFX fighter jet | The Jakarta Post

Indonesia and ROK will continue KFX/IFX program to Phase II. On other media, it isa also reported Phase II will produce 6 prototypes in which 1 of them will be assembly in DI.

Helikopter Apache dan Sukhoi Su-35 Segera Perkuat TNI | Republika Online

TNI Chief, General Moeldoko stated that 3 potential candidate for F-5 replacement. Su-35, Gripen and F-16, in order of preferences.

Nothing new in there, Su-35 has been said few times by the General as strong candidate, however few local analyst see this as potential bargain chip to LM and SAAB.

Su-35 it self by Rosoboronexport already aimed Indonesia as potential market. Will be see more of this later on. With Jokowi Party historical closeness to Rusian supplier, this can not be discounted.
One thing interesting though, with KFX/IFX program continue, SAAB also can use this as potential strong point, since KFX/IFX program aimed to used same class of engine with Gripen NG.

 

[Ananda]

http://tni-au.mil.id/berita/karbol-aau-latihan-cakra-wahana-paksa

From TNI-AU website. The article is only news that cadets from TNI-AU Academy, visit 11th Sq, which homed their Flankres. I put in here for the photo, since it's quite rare from TNI-AU official site showing practically complete line up of Flanker missiles in their Inventory.

 

[STURM]

The 2nd missile fom the left appears to be an R-77. The one next to the chap in the flight suit is a KAB-1500Kr. On the right foreground is either an OFAB -100-200 or 500kg FAB-500M62 bomb or a PT Sari Bahari P-100 L or P-100 practice bomb. The one closest to the plane is a KH-31 [no way for sure of knowing from the pic if it's a 'P' anti-radiation version or an 'A' anti-ship version] but comparing it to the one below, it looks like an 'A' - the 'P' apparently has a different coloured warhead.

 

[Ananda]

The 2nd missile fom the left appears to be an R-77. The one next to the chap in the flight suit is a KAB-1500Kr. On the right foreground is either an OFAB -100-200 or 500kg FAB-500M62 bomb or a PT Sari Bahari P-100 L or P-100 practice bomb. The one closest to the plane is a KH-31 [no way for sure of knowing from the pic if it's a 'P' anti-radiation version or an 'A' anti-ship version] but comparing it to the one below, it looks like an 'A' - the 'P' apparently has a different coloured warhead.

Yep..From what I gather also TNI-AU KH-31 inventory is for A version and not P. Quite interesting to talk the P version though, although some Internet 'analyst' called the P version as AE&W killer, I still tend to see P versions for anti Radar Ground instalations as HARM does.

R-77 is the first and at this moment the only anti air BVR missile in TNI inventory. They supposedly already get green light for AIM-120 AMRAAM C, for those refurbished F-16 C/D. Will be intersting to see if they will be able to put R-77 in F-16 or AIM-120 in Flanker vice versa...

 

[STURM]

The 'P' is intended to be used against surface and land targets. There was talk about a 'AWACS killer' killer but it has yet to appear; in fact we don't even know if development actually commenced. There was also talk about a ram jet R-77 'AWACS killer' that would only go terminal when in close proximity to the target. Again, it appears that the R-77 'AWACS killer ' was just a proposal and never entered development.

As far I can make out, the first ASEAN air arm to get an anti-radiation missile was Vietnam [off course it wasn't ASEAN then] - the AS-9 Kyle for its Su-17s.

I'm still trying to make out which was the first ASEAN air arm to get a BVR missile.

 

[Ananda]

Well it is either Vietnam or Singapore. Now Singapore is the first one to get AIM 120, and before that most of Asean western equiped Air Force only have F-5 which can not be equiped by AIM-7.

The F-16 A/B blok 15 OCU, that equiped Indonesian, Thailand, and Singapore AF, does not equiped with either AIM-7 let alone AIM-120. Singapore got AIM-120 when they got the C/D, while their A/B transferred to Thai's, only equiped with AIM-9. I believe both Thai's and Indonesian F-16 A/B, still can not be equiped with AIM-120, although the recent Thai's upgrade, and the planned upgrade for Indonesian A/B should remedy that,

The question is, whether Singapore AIM-120, is come after Vietnam R-77 which followed their Flankers in the 90's or before that. Some internet sources suggest, the US gave AIM-120 to Singapore due to introduction of R-77 in the region. However, I'm not clearly determined this refered to Vietnam R-77 or planned Soeharto's R-77 when he ordered 12 SU-30 KI, before financial crisis, thus the demise of his regime's.

 

[STURM]

Malaysia ordered Sparrow for its F/A-18Ds in the early 1990s but only received it after full delivery of its F/A-18Ds in the late 1990's: not sure if anyone else in the region had a BVR capability then but I do know that Thailand received some Python 3s sometime in the 1990's. Malaysia was also the first to officially request AMRAAM, followed by Thailand in the 1990's but Singapore was the first operator. After being denied AMRRAM in the late 1990's - due to the Clinton administration's policy of not being the 1st to introduce a new capability to the region - Malaysia lost interest and only requested AMRAAM in the early 2000's. I suspect that Singapore got AMRAAM before Vietnam got R-77 as Vietnam only ordered R-77s way after its Su-30s entered service - I could be wrong though. It has been a longstanding policy of Singapore to ensure it has an edge over its immediate neighbours; thus I wouldn't be surprised at all if the decision to get AMRAAM was hastened by the introduction of R-77 by a regional country. I do recall reading in the Asian Defence Journal the Thais announcing they wanted AMRAAM for their F/A-18Ds because Malaysia was reportedly getting R-77s for its Fulcrums [it never did].

The first ASEAN F-5E operator was Malaysia which was probably also the first ASEAN Sidewinder operator [discounting South Vietnam which wasn't ASEAN then]. Indonesia off course already had Atoll for its MiGs. The only BVR operators in the region for much of the Cold War was the U.S. [Sparrows at Clark] and Australia [Super Magics at Butterworth]. Not sure if Soviet Floggers at Cam Ranh Bay had BVR missiles.

Thailand was the first to fire a PGM in anger [Paveway during a border skirmish with Myanmmar in 2001] followed by Philippine Broncos [Paveway against a terrorist target in 2012] and later Malaysia [Paveway against Royal Sulu gunmen in 2013]. Singapore was the first Maverick operator [Skyhawks] followed by Indonesia [F-6As]. Were TNI-AU Skyhawks ever armed with Maverick? As far as I know, Malaysia was the first to get an air launched ASM [Harpoon], unless off course reports that TNI-AU Super Pumas had Exocet in the mid-1990's were true. And off course Singapore Fokkers have a Harpoon capability. Do their F-16s have Harpoon?

Sorry, for some reason I have all this useless trivia in my head :]

Also, was there ever any reported use of napalm by the TNI-AU in the past?

 

[Ananda]

Try to see old article from a local military magazine. This magazine has ceased their operation more than a decade, so no on line source. There's article in the 1994 reporting an exercise by Indonesian F-16 using both maverick and laser guided bombs. The article stated that that's the first time (officially), Indonesian AF used both weapons.

Thus on your question whether Indonesian A-4 equiped with Maverick, then the answered is no. That missile only equiped F-16 in TNI-AU inventory. Later on also Hawk 200.

As for Napalm, well there's unconfirmed report from Western NGO's that TNI-AU used Napalm in East Timor. However there's also denial in Media from TNI sources for using Napalm in East Timor or other Anti-Insurgance operation in Papua and Aceh. So, I tend to believe TNI did not have Napalm on any of their operation. Not because of just believing TNI sources, but it's unlikely the US willing to supply Napalm for TNI, knowing it will be used for Anti-Insurgance operation.

At the sametime, Dahana (the Indonesian sole explosives factory in the 90's), does not have capabilities to produce Napalm ingredients.

 

[fireduke86]

Malaysia ordered Sparrow for its F/A-18Ds in the early 1990s but only received it after full delivery of its F/A-18Ds in the late 1990's: not sure if anyone else in the region had a BVR capability then but I do know that Thailand received some Python 3s sometime in the 1990's. Malaysia was also the first to officially request AMRAAM, followed by Thailand in the 1990's but Singapore was the first operator. After being denied AMRRAM in the late 1990's - due to the Clinton administration's policy of not being the 1st to introduce a new capability to the region - Malaysia lost interest and only requested AMRAAM in the early 2000's. I suspect that Singapore got AMRAAM before Vietnam got R-77 as Vietnam only ordered R-77s way after its Su-30s entered service - I could be wrong though. It has been a longstanding policy of Singapore to ensure it has an edge over its immediate neighbours; thus I wouldn't be surprised at all if the decision to get AMRAAM was hastened by the introduction of R-77 by a regional country. I do recall reading in the Asian Defence Journal the Thais announcing they wanted AMRAAM for their F/A-18Ds because Malaysia was reportedly getting R-77s for its Fulcrums [it never did].

The first ASEAN F-5E operator was Malaysia which was probably also the first ASEAN Sidewinder operator [discounting South Vietnam which wasn't ASEAN then]. Indonesia off course already had Atoll for its MiGs. The only BVR operators in the region for much of the Cold War was the U.S. [Sparrows at Clark] and Australia [Super Magics at Butterworth]. Not sure if Soviet Floggers at Cam Ranh Bay had BVR missiles.

Thailand was the first to fire a PGM in anger [Paveway during a border skirmish with Myanmmar in 2001] followed by Philippine Broncos [Paveway against a terrorist target in 2012] and later Malaysia [Paveway against Royal Sulu gunmen in 2013]. Singapore was the first Maverick operator [Skyhawks] followed by Indonesia [F-6As]. Were TNI-AU Skyhawks ever armed with Maverick? As far as I know, Malaysia was the first to get an air launched ASM [Harpoon], unless off course reports that TNI-AU Super Pumas had Exocet in the mid-1990's were true. And off course Singapore Fokkers have a Harpoon capability. Do their F-16s have Harpoon?

Sorry, for some reason I have all this useless trivia in my head :]

Also, was there ever any reported use of napalm by the TNI-AU in the past?

I might be wrong but the impression I had from news articles I came across over the years was that Singapore gained AMRAAM capabilities only after Malaysia had the R-77 for its Fulcrums.

 

[Ananda]

Gripen gears up for Indonesia - Indo14-Day3 - IHS Jane's 360

Already news for couple of weeks. Only have time to add recently, tonnyc already put this on local forum also. In short, SAAB campaign for Gripen NG for F-5 (and I belivev later on Hawk 200/100) replacement getting very intensified, and sems got more media intention then Eurofighters.

Both SAAB and Eurofighters represented themselves quite heavily in Indodefence. They stole the limelight from Sukhoi and LM. Both promised heavy involvement for DI in manufacturing process if their respective bird got the contract.

My ranting on how affordable it is, seems being answered by Jokowi latest decision on cutting the fuel subsidies. This potentially will free up much more needed additional fund for social program and infrastucture including defense.

Will see how this is going to progress.

 

[STURM]

I might be wrong but the impression I had from news articles I came across over the years was that Singapore gained AMRAAM capabilities only after Malaysia had the R-77 for its Fulcrums.

The RMAF's Fulcrums were wired for R-77 in the late 1990's but they were never armed with it. An order for R-77s was only placed in 2012, for the Flankers. The only missiles the Fulcrums were armed with were R-27s and R-73s. According to what I read somewhere, development of the R-77 was affected by cash problems Vympel faced in the 1990's and it was orders from India and China that eventually saved the day.

 

[deadlast]

......
As far as I know, Malaysia was the first to get an air launched ASM [Harpoon], unless off course reports that TNI-AU Super Pumas had Exocet in the mid-1990's were true. And off course Singapore Fokkers have a Harpoon capability. Do their F-16s have Harpoon?
......

I think AS-1 Kennel in Indonesian TU-16 is the first air launched ASM in ASEAN, well if Kennel can be considered as an ASM anyway. CMIIW

 

[madokafc]

Try to see old article from a local military magazine. This magazine has ceased their operation more than a decade, so no on line source. There's article in the 1994 reporting an exercise by Indonesian F-16 using both maverick and laser guided bombs. The article stated that that's the first time (officially), Indonesian AF used both weapons.

Thus on your question whether Indonesian A-4 equiped with Maverick, then the answered is no. That missile only equiped F-16 in TNI-AU inventory. Later on also Hawk 200.

As for Napalm, well there's unconfirmed report from Western NGO's that TNI-AU used Napalm in East Timor. However there's also denial in Media from TNI sources for using Napalm in East Timor or other Anti-Insurgance operation in Papua and Aceh. So, I tend to believe TNI did not have Napalm on any of their operation. Not because of just believing TNI sources, but it's unlikely the US willing to supply Napalm for TNI, knowing it will be used for Anti-Insurgance operation.

At the sametime, Dahana (the Indonesian sole explosives factory in the 90's), does not have capabilities to produce Napalm ingredients.

Indonesian Air Force do have and was using Napalm bombs during military campaign in East Timor. And until 1990 we still got shipments from US

This photographs during Air Campaign in East Timor

 

[Ananda]

@Madokafc..if indeed US still supplying TNI-AU with Napalm..knowing very well it will be used in East Timor...then it is showing another facet of US 'blessing' for TNI action in East Timor...Talk about how Western especially US attitude can change dramatically before and after cold war...

Back to TNI-AU news...

SAAB has officially offered TNI-AU their Erieye AEW system...So far seems it is aimed to strengthen JAS 39 Gripen effort to win F-5 replacement contract. Acoording to Antara news agency, SAAB offered the erieye in package with either SAAB 2000 as the platform...

TNI seems from other source indicated that they want Jet Airliner (possibly 737 family) due to long term experience with the type and 737 extensive service network support domestically and within ASEAN region..If turboprop platform choosen then it's more likely C-295 become the platform..since DI/IAe already part of C-295 and CN-235 manufacturing process.

that's mean another process for Erieye integration with other platform that has not been certified for the system so far.

From Antara..sorry in Bahasa..

SAAB Swedia akan tawarkan Erieye AEW&C kepada Indonesia - ANTARA News

 

[tonnyc]

My personal opinion is that if Indonesia adopts the Erieye, the CN-235 has better economic potential for the country compared to other platforms.

Putting the Erieye on a B-737 does not make sense. If a jet platform is absolutely required, which I dispute, then the EJB-145 makes far more sense than a B-737. However, if a turboprop platform is acceptable, then despite having the smaller space, the CN-235 promises better reward than the C-295.

The existence of the S100B based on the Saab 340 proves that the Erieye can be put on a turboprop of that size. Thus it is possible to put the Erieye on the CN-235. We know that in the past Ericsson Microwave Systems (which is now Saab Microwave Systems) already looked into it. There will be integration cost, but the same cost will be incurred with the C-295 or B-737 anyway.

The range and endurance of the CN-235 with an Erieye system is going to be lower than the C-295, but comparing the stats of CN-235 MPA and C-295 MPA shows that for an MPA the difference is relatively small. An AEW&C system is not the same of course, but hopefully the difference in range and endurance remains small. The main technical drawback will be the smaller size of CN-235. The C-295 can have more stations and carry more operators. Some countries consider a smaller aircraft acceptable. Some chose a larger one. I have no idea what Indonesia's requirement in this matter is.

While there is some conflict of interest with Saab who is trying to market their own Saab 340 and Saab 2000, both of those are no longer in production. IIRC, back in 2012 Saab looked into restarting production of those two aircrafts, but it seems Saab has decided that it's not worth pursuing. The company still has some Saab 340 and Saab 2000 in their subsidiary Saab Aircraft Leasing, but as of today, the Saab Aircraft Leasing site only shows one free Saab 340. Saab in the past has said that they are platform neutral too, so I don't see any trouble from Saab in integrating the Erieye with any platform that TNI wants if chosen.

What makes the CN-235 intriguing to me is the possibility of offering a CN-235 Erieye to other countries later. As a co-owner of the CN-235 intellectual property, Indonesian Aerospace has the right to develop their own CN-235 variants and market them independently of Airbus. IAe does not have this with the C-295. The C-295 intellectual property belongs 100% to Airbus.

Long-term, an IAe CN-235 Erieye can be a turboprop version similar to Embraer EMB-145 Erieye.

 

[STURM]

There was a grazing incident involving 2 of 6 TNI-AU KT-1Bs that were conducting a practice session for the LIMA exhibition that starts on Tuesday at Langkawi, Malaysia. All 4 pilots ejected and were picked up by an RMAF SAR helicopter. They are in hospital for observation and are not injured. One of the planes crashed inside the airport itself but fortunately didn't hit anything. The only damage on the ground were 2 houses and a car that caught fire; outside the airport.

Other teams that will perform at LIMA are ones from China, Malaysia Singapore and the UAE.