Indonesian Aero News

[Sandhi Yudha]

At last good news about our Sukhoi's weaponry.
At another discussionforum there is a pictures uploaded from a Indonesian Sukhoi with an R-77 on a hardpoint under its fuselage.
So now we know that our Sukhois dont need to defend our airspace only with their 30 mm guns and dumb freefall bombs...

 

[Saracens]

At last good news about our Sukhoi's weaponry.
At another discussionforum there is a pictures uploaded from a Indonesian Sukhoi with an R-77 on a hardpoint under its fuselage.
So now we know that our Sukhois dont need to defend our airspace only with their 30 mm guns and dumb freefall bombs...

Can you post the picture or give the link ?

 

[Ananda]

Heron or Searcher II

Pesawat Tanpa Awak Siap Amankan Perbatasan - ANTARA News Kalimantan Barat

From Antara News Agency.

This is first time in local media the Supadio AB Commander admitted the name of 'foreign' made UAV that will equiped TNI AU first UAV sq. Basically the Sq will be equiped with 12 UAV, with 8 are locally made Wulung, and The other 4 foreign made Heron.

Now SIPRI stated 4 UAV come via Philippine company are Searcher II, while on this article, the base commander admitted the foreign UAV are Heron. Will have to see which are the correct one, although local forum claimed that the 4 Searcher II in SIPRI is also correct, however the user is BAIS (Indonesian Intelligence Agency), and not part of TNI AU UAV sq.

 

[Ananda]

Can you post the picture or give the link ?

I believe he's referring to this photograph that already circulated in local forum for several days. The photo show a man with TNI-AU uniform under which appear one of Indonesian Flankers, that carried what to be appear R-77.

No official comfirmation yet.

 

[40 deg south]

Can any of our knowledgable Indonesian commentators give an update on the Grob 120TP training aircraft?

The initial purchase announcment was made well over a year ago, and there hasn't been much further news from Germany or Jakarta.

How many have been delivered to date? Any word on timing of entry into service?

Terima kasih

 

[Ananda]

Empat Pesawat Latih Grob Siap Dikirim ke Indonesia

Above the online article from Indonesian Defense Magazines, Angkasa. Dated 23 May, the article show ceremony of handing over 4 Grob to TNI-AU officials. By schedule all 18 Grob will be delivered within a year.

 

[John Newman]

A couple of articles in the last two days about the ex RAAF C130H going to Indonesia.

The first of the 4 'gifted' H models is ready for delivery and the remaining three during 2014, refurb costs are $63m. QDS is suggesting that they will be good for another 20-30 years.

Qantas Defence Services to prepare four ex-RAAF C-130Hs for Indonesia


The second article is about another 5 being sold, complete with spares and simulator, reportedly for only $15m.

Indonesia to buy five C-130Hs from Australia

I'd assume the additional 5 are being sold 'as is' and are probably out of the remaining operational ones that retired late last year, wonder if they will need any refurb work too?

Still nine Hercs + simulator + spares for less than $80m sounds like a pretty good deal.

 

[Ananda]

The second article is about another 5 being sold, complete with spares and simulator, reportedly for only $15m.

Indonesia to buy five C-130Hs from Australia

I'd assume the additional 5 are being sold 'as is' and are probably out of the remaining operational ones that retired late last year, wonder if they will need any refurb work too?

Still nine Hercs + simulator + spares for less than $80m sounds like a pretty good deal.

Yes it's a bargain deal, that's why TNI-AU take it.

TNI AU Tambah 3 Skadron Udara | Investor Daily

This an rather old article (from April), quoting Air Force chief which indicated in this year 3 new sq will be established. 1 sq in Sumatra to take some of new ex USAF F-16, the other is UAV sq in Pontianak, West Kalimantan, and finally C-130 sq in Makasar.

This new C-130 sq in Makasar is expected to take ex RAAF C-130H. Since the other 2 C-130 sq in Jakarta (housing present C-130 H), and in Malang East Java (housing C-130B), will still be active considering most of curent inventory of C-130B and H are undergoing upgrade in Indonesia, Singapore and US.

For that I do believe that the refurb/upgrade job for the 5 ex RAAF C-130 will be conducted. I suspect still being contracted in Australia.

Some previous info from Parliament, indicated there are enough fund for 6 C-130J. However mindef choose to upgrade existing C-130 B and H, to the latest H upgrade standard, and take ex RAAF ones, so instead 6 new C-130J, they able to upgrade existing Hercs and ex RAAF, for 3 sq from existing 2.

 

[John Newman]

Yes it's a bargain deal, that's why TNI-AU take it.

TNI AU Tambah 3 Skadron Udara | Investor Daily

This an rather old article (from April), quoting Air Force chief which indicated in this year 3 new sq will be established. 1 sq in Sumatra to take some of new ex USAF F-16, the other is UAV sq in Pontianak, West Kalimantan, and finally C-130 sq in Makasar.

This new C-130 sq in Makasar is expected to take ex RAAF C-130H. Since the other 2 C-130 sq in Jakarta (housing present C-130 H), and in Malang East Java (housing C-130B), will still be active considering most of curent inventory of C-130B and H are undergoing upgrade in Indonesia, Singapore and US.

For that I do believe that the refurb/upgrade job for the 5 ex RAAF C-130 will be conducted. I suspect still being contracted in Australia.

Some previous info from Parliament, indicated there are enough fund for 6 C-130J. However mindef choose to upgrade existing C-130 B and H, to the latest H upgrade standard, and take ex RAAF ones, so instead 6 new C-130J, they able to upgrade existing Hercs and ex RAAF, for 3 sq from existing 2.

Hi Ananda,

Thanks for the reply, very informative.

As you suggest the extra 5 might also be refurbed here in Australia, maybe we might see an announcement by QDS in due course?

I do have another question that you might be able to answer.

I remember about a year ago when the announcement went up on the Australian Government Defence website regarding the 'gifting' of the 4 aircraft, the point was made that, repeating one of the paragraphs:

"Australia is very pleased to make this contribution to Indonesia’s airlift capability, which will support humanitarian assistance and disaster relief operations."

And I also remember at the time a journalist asked one of the senior Indonesian Air Force officers a question, something along the lines of "what strings were attached", he replied (words to the effect) "There are always strings attached when purchasing from Australia".

And again the latest announcement of the sale of the 5 additional aircraft also puts focus on "natural disasters and humanitarian crisis".

I know that when we sell defence equipment of US origin we have to gain their permission and added to that, also what restrictions the US and I assume there are also restrictions we have placed on their use too.

So my question is, are there a 'restriction' on how these aircraft can be used? Are they restricted to only be used for 'disaster and humanitarian' purposes?

Are they, for example, not allowed to be used for moving troops to say, West Papua, if there was an issue of some sort?

Interested in your opinion on this.

 

[tonnyc]

How many have been delivered to date? Any word on timing of entry into service?

The article that Ananda linked also says that the 4 Grobs will be (are) shipped via ocean freight and due to arrive in mid or late July. So check back next week?

 

[Ananda]

There always string attached when buying western origin equipment. However, those ex RAAF C-130 will be stationed in Makasar, thus Eastern Indonesia including West Papua will be their operational area.

I can't say more on what 'if' the 'potential' condition on the transfer of those C-130, however those C-130 is a non-combatan assets. I believe the only C-130 that can be clasified as combatan assets is the gun ship versions AC-130, which I believe has not been transfered outside US.

The British has shown some objections, when TNI used Hawk 200 in taking on Aceh rebels during Aceh conflicts. However since military the OPM (Papuan Rebels) is weaker than GAM (Aceh rebels) or Fretellin in East Timor, I don't think TNI will used much Air assets to handle OPM. If they need one, is more on transport on the jungle, and that's the Mi-17 and Mi-35 coming for.

Yes TNI already learn the lesson, that's why for potential COIN operations they already sourcing non western assets to do that. While the Western origin assets, I believe will be used for non internal security jobs in which ussuualy excluding COIN. For example, If TNI really finalized the deal for Apache, then I don't see it will be used for COIN operation. They already got Mi-35 and Super Tucano for that.

As for C-130, well it's non combatan assets, so I don't think it will be an issue. Incidentally, the term for internal security for US perspective is in my opinion a bit loose. They don't mind their asset to be used for terrorists, but bit sensitive if being used for fighting rebels. Point is definition of rebels vs terrorists kind bit overlapping, depends whose the terorists or the rebels. Like now, Al Qaeda based fighters, fought rebellion with Assad regime. Now the US found the dillema, whether call them terorists as Assad did, or freedom fighters, like the opposition wants.

Politics, politics, politics. .

 

[Ananda]

Double Post

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes it's a bargain deal, that's why TNI-AU take it.

TNI AU Tambah 3 Skadron Udara | Investor Daily

This an rather old article (from April), quoting Air Force chief which indicated in this year 3 new sq will be established. 1 sq in Sumatra to take some of new ex USAF F-16, the other is UAV sq in Pontianak, West Kalimantan, and finally C-130 sq in Makasar.

Thanks for sharing Ananda.
Here two pictures i made last month and this month.
A-1308, A-1310 and A-2901....

 

[40 deg south]

The article that Ananda linked also says that the 4 Grobs will be (are) shipped via ocean freight and due to arrive in mid or late July. So check back next week?

Very helpful, thanks tonnyc and Ananda.

It will be interesting to see how the Grob's performs, as Indonesia is the first customer. In theory, matching a well-proven airframe with a well-proven engine should be low-risk, but the history of military procurement suggests that isn't always the case!

I think Argentina has just signed on as the second customer, tied in with a deal for Grob to help revitalise a local aerospace firm.

 

[Ananda]

From Local Forum. First Shipment of Grob basic trainer arrived in their new base in Jogjakarta. Besides taking all training sylabus on AS 202 Bravo, it's expected some Sylabus that used to be trained on T-34C intermediate trainer can be used by Grob, due expected better performance and capabilities of Grob compared to AS 202.

The Training Sylabus then will move on to KT-1 as the Intermediate trainer. Thus when full contingent of Grob and KT-1 already operational, they hoped to replace all AS 202 and T-34C in Jogjakarta AB.

 

[40 deg south]

From Local Forum. First Shipment of Grob basic trainer arrived in their new base in Jogjakarta. Besides taking all training sylabus on AS 202 Bravo, it's expected some Sylabus that used to be trained on T-34C intermediate trainer can be used by Grob, due expected better performance and capabilities of Grob compared to AS 202.

The Training Sylabus then will move on to KT-1 as the Intermediate trainer. Thus when full contingent of Grob and KT-1 already operational, they hoped to replace all AS 202 and T-34C in Jogjakarta AB.

Thanks for the info, Ananda.

The RNZAF is currently in the market for new training aircraft. They appear to have a strong preference for the Beechcraft Texan II, which is very capable but has a price tag to match.

Out of interest I've been looking around at lower-priced options, as our defence forces usually end up with the low-end option irrespective of what they ask for. Hence my curiosity about the Grob.

As our Prime Minister has just been in Seoul pushing for a free trade agreement - perhaps I had better study the KT-1 Wongbee as well!

 

[Ananda]

No offense, but with RNZAF already set not to regain fast jets capabilities, why getting trainer like Texan II or KT-1 ? Perhaps trainer like Grob 120 as basics than move to twin engine such as Diamond DA-42 as multi engine trainer, will fit RNZAF better if we considered current and planned inventory.

 

[40 deg south]

No offense, but with RNZAF already set not to regain fast jets capabilities, why getting trainer like Texan II or KT-1 ? Perhaps trainer like Grob 120 as basics than move to twin engine such as Diamond DA-42 as multi engine trainer, will fit RNZAF better if we considered current and planned inventory.

Anand
No offence taken, my thoughts are exactly the same. The RNZAF for the forseeable future will fly helicopters, maritime surveillance aircraft and transports. I'm not sure they will be able to justify buying a trainer designed as a lead-in to fast jets.

The current CT4 trainer weighs about 800kg empty, and has a 300hp piston engine. The Texan II weighs 2100kg empty and has an 1100hp turboprop. (Figures ex Wikipedia, but look about right). So the Texan II is close to three times the weight, and four times the power of the aircraft it is replacing.

Sure, I understand that all militaries always like shiny toys. And the RNZAF really wants the Texan II (and the training version of the Kingair 200 for multi-engine training). And there is no doubt that these are very capable trainers.

But will the government will be willing to pay for the extra capability? Time will tell, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.I just hope RNZAF has a Plan B in case the Treasury says 'no'.

 

[40 deg south]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[koxinga]

A number of F16C had been removed from AMARC over the last two months. Only 6 units have been converted for the QF-16 programme under the EMD phase. Based on this schedule (QF16 schedule, some 15 further F16 would be entering Lot 1 LRIP under the QF16 programme in Q3.

I presume given the numbers being transferred (more than 20), some of these AMARC F-16s are destined for TNI-AU? Any idea where the refurbishment is being done? According to the original DSCA (DSCA Nov 2011, the refurbishment was supposed to be done at the 309th Maintenance Wing. However, this unit had been deactivated in 2012 (Commentary: 309 MXW to inactivate; members to be part of OO-Air Logistics Complex. Is the refurbishment being done at the Ogden Air Logistics Complex now and any idea of the delivery status?