Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[tonnyc]

Max Defense and Philippines forums gone livid when they see the UAE LPD being assemble before theirs. Seems even the official PAL has not said anything yet, but enough noises already shown this is UAE's LPD.

Well when one customer being move ahead of schedule from other ones, I only see one possibilities. UAE already ahead on payment schedule then Philippine. Still this is why PAL rushing to prepare FMP for late this month launch. They need the space for other ship, and most likely Philippine LPD#1.

I actually see a different possibility. That a critical piece equipment needed for the LPD has arrived for the UAE's LPD but not for the Philippine LPD. I don't believe it's a payment issue from the Philippines. The way Philippine defense procurement works, it's really difficult to get something funded, but once something is funded, the money is earmarked and can't really be used for something else. Of course the way it works isn't with physical money, but basically the authorization to transfer the money would have been approved beforehand and can't really be canceled without someone really high up overriding the authorization.

As for which equipment, not sure. But I notice that with the Guarani APC, Germany withheld authorization for use of their diesel engines for three years. No idea why, but that's why it took so long to deliver the APC. It's not impossible something similar happened with the MTU marine diesels powering the Philippine LPD. We'll find out what's really going on later, I guess.

 

[Ananda]

That a critical piece equipment needed for the LPD has arrived for the UAE's LPD but not for the Philippine LPD. I don't believe it's a payment issue from the Philippines.

Late supplier delivery is also one possibility, which I also mentioned on my two previous post. Something quite significant happen either way on why UAE LPD getting move up on schedule as Pinoy LPD actually has first cut steal ahead from UAE's.

Jane's put article some time ago that Philippines LPD's face delay at PAL time table. This all back in my opinion related to PAL taking too much order on building and MRO against their capacity.

 

[tonnyc]

This all back in my opinion related to PAL taking too much order on building and MRO against their capacity.

This reminds me. A while ago you said the same thing about PT PAL taking too many orders. I was going to comment on that but life got hectic and I forgot.

I want to point out that PT PAL does not actually have a choice. If the government decides that frigates should be built locally, then PT PAL must build it, even if that means neglecting previously contracted foreign orders. And I believe that's what happened. The government decided the FMP shall be prioritized and PT PAL does not have the ability to say, "No, these foreign orders were signed first. The frigates will have to wait their turn."

 

[koxinga]

Philippine budget documents indicated payment up to 50% on the first LPD, (15% down payment and 35% second payment). Ananda's point was PT PAL can and should have sub-contracted some of these work to other yards.

PT PAL can still hold the contract as the prime contract and is still accountable to the government or clients, but leverage on spare capacity of others. Of course, it is still not that simple since you need to manage quality and delivery timelines from these third parties. But the point is capacity (assembly area, workforce) is finite, and all it takes is one project to screw up or delay (e.g FMP) and the rest will be affected. This almost certainly happened.

 

[Ananda]

Finite capacity indeed as the PAL facilities shown above. 2 graving docks and 1 floating dock plus some manufacturing hangars. There are those in Batam actually have larger manufacturing yards compare to PAL.

Ananda's point was PT PAL can and should have sub-contracted some of these work to other yards.

Thanks to point that out. Yes this is what I heard from noises in industry. PAL CEO try to shown that he manage to improve PAL productivity with his 4.0 industry improvement. Thus he lobby as much as possible orders. Especially the R-41 TNI-AL upgrade program. Yes other Yards get the part of R-41 job, but PAL still insist to get biggest chunk. This is the problem on taking too much order in my opinion, the balancing between manufacturing and MRO.

Manufacturing and export order if being taken should be compensate with reduce load in MRO. Thus they can use both graving dock for manufacturing, as now only one can be use for manufacturing and one dedicated for MRO.

Yes MRO provide better cash flow turnaround, but when you as yard already committed for certain load of manufacturing and assembly, with limited capacity how far you can stretch yourself?

There are histories of PAL mismanagement of cashflow results on delay and fines from export customers. I just sense present CEO stretching the capacity too much with too thin reserve backup for scheduling misshap. The delay both on Philippines LPD's and even the MRO for BNP Tarlac, I'm afraid shown PAL walking on thin ices.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Corvettes (photo from local forum) row. From left 2 Parchim, Bung Tomo, Bung Karno, Bung Hatta, and last one on the right one of PC-60 large patrol craft. I like Bung Hatta, and the row like this shown it is appropriate Parchim class replacement.

This is also shown Bung Hatta clearly longer and wider then Bung Karno. Eventough it is classified as one class, it should be classified as separate class entirely.

 

[Ananda]

Finally photo that shown clear Atmaca missiles tubes at KRI Belati. Makes this KCR/FMB 60 as first TNI-AL vessel with Atmaca. Previously it is thought the OPV-90 will be the first, but this KCR bear them on Atmaca installation.

 

[Ananda]

I'm watching TNI day now on Monas square. They are announcing what new equipement that will come soon on Videotron. Garibaldi is being announce. Oo well seems like it or not it becoming reality. Let's wait the package behind it including the Fincantieri upgrade.

Add:
PAL UUV prototype 001 doing sea trial (source Keris FB).





The mock up model in TNI day have prefix # of 008 and being shown with two light torpedoes mock up model. The 001 one is smaller and seems for ISR purpose.

 

[Ananda]

Some photo on OPV 90 system and weapon integration begin to leak out to Local Enthusiast forums. Seems both of those OPV 90 will come out soon from DRU/Noahtu facility in Lampung.

 

[seaspear]

Is Indonesia developing its own U.A.V program for the new carrier its acquiring ,certainly Turkey could be one such source of ready made and even Ukraine

 

[Ananda]

Turkiye akan ekspor drone tempur Bayraktar ke Indonesia

Setidaknya 60 drone TB3 dan 9 Akinci akan dijual ke Indonesia usai penandatanganan perjanjian baru - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

.

Bayraktar already choose Indonesian Republikorp as partner for JV on manufacturing TB3 and Akinci. Turkiye implementations of UAV especially TB3 on their LHD is the main reason why Indonesian MinDef decided to get Garibaldi. UAV carrier concept is the main reason for Garibaldi procurement.

The others like Amphibious Commando Carrier, Disaster relieve support ships, etc are just additional 'bonus' functions.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The mock-up displayed at Monas looks slightly different than the real one. I also don't understand wht they give it the number KSOT-008.
PT PAL Unveils KSOT Autonomous Submarine Prototype for the First Time - Naval News

I planned to post the ground vehicles of TNI-AL first, but because of the Navalnews article, i decided to upload the photos of PAL KSOT-008 first.

 

[Ananda]

The mock up shown it is armed with couple of light torpedoes, while PAL info media talk about KSOT that armed with either heavy torpedoes or sub launch SSM. There's no way the UUV/KSOT of 15m size launch heavy torps or sub launch SSM. So either they are still on process to build larger version, or the PAL info is another hyperbole which is ussual on Indonesian state owned enterprise public expose.

The working prototype that I put on post#3,288 above also have stabiliser fin at front. No sign in the mock up, thus shown this is still on going evolve design. PAL also admitted that Diehl Defence still their partner in developing this UUV/KSOT.

 

[Ananda]

https://x.com/DefenArt/status/1975893334716797100?s=09

An enthusiats X account share video on OPV 90#1 doing sea trial. This ship KRI Raja Haji Fissabillah being talk will be delivered with full sensors and weapons integration. Still bit minority in TNI-AL delivery contract as some parts of weapons and system in FFBNW contract.

3.5K views · 162 reactions | KRI.Raja Haji Fisabilillah, dari class OPV 98m, sudah melakukan uji coba. #MuhamadMuslihudin #OPV @penggemar berat | Industry Made in Indonesia

KRI.Raja Haji Fisabilillah, dari class OPV 98m, sudah melakukan uji coba. #MuhamadMuslihudin #OPV @penggemar berat.

www.facebook.com

 

[Ananda]

PT PAL Unveils KSOT Autonomous Submarine Prototype for the First Time - Naval News

Indonesian state-owned shipbuilder PT PAL Indonesia unveiled its autonomous submarine (Kapal Selam Otonom/KSOT in Indonesian) to the public for the first time

www.navalnews.com

From Naval News on PT. PAL UUV/KSOT. Sutton claim that the UUV aim for choke points defense and survailances.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

This is the fastest domestic build missile boats and seems being aim to replace South Korea build Tacoma class missile boats that come in 80's. This KCR 60 use combination of Turkish Missiles and sensors combine with Italian guns and electronics. Something that seems going to be repeated by domestic naval ships under present contracts.

The new KCR 60 also being planned for 3rd Fleet in Eastern Indonesia waters. The OPV 90 also planned to 3rd fleet, and potentially even the Turkish build KCR 70.

It is very confusing that after the original KCR-60M Sampari Class, two new classes of patrolboats are under construction stamped as "KCR-60M class". Besides that according to some sources the ones built by PT Palindo Marine are actually 68 meter long.

And then we have the so called "OPV-90M", which are actually 98 meters long.
Here we have another video of the trials.

The mock-up displayed at Monas looks slightly different than the real one. I also don't understand wht they give it the number KSOT-008.
PT PAL Unveils KSOT Autonomous Submarine Prototype for the First Time - Naval News

I planned to post the ground vehicles of TNI-AL first, but because of the Navalnews article, i decided to upload the photos of PAL KSOT-008 first.

And here we have some illustrations of the KSOT on Twitter.
https://x.com/Muhikhsan52/status/1975906363344900487/photo/1

 

[Ananda]

Besides that according to some sources the ones built by PT Palindo Marine are actually 68 meter long.

The ones that build by Palindo seem's actually Turkish design derived from 70m fast missile boats build now in Turkiye. Like I said in general navy thread, All ASEAN Navy now has to churning out projects that fast enough to fill the gap.

Why KCR 60 actually going to be diversivied between several design, my guest is the Navy not entirely satisfied with original PAL KCR 60.

And then we have the so called "OPV-90M", which are actually 98 meters long.

Rumours now even talk larger design call OPV 100 that actually 108m. Basically this OPV is Corvette. Perhaps SIGMA 105M should be relegate as Corvete. Why so many designs, my suspicions now is they (TNI-AL) believe to get new asset ASAP, regardless different designs.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So it is almost like a panic reaction because of the 2014-2024 administration when not much happen....

Well, at least we have the midlife upgrade/modernisation program of 41 vessels in the fleet.
Here a nice overview on Twitter.
https://x.com/LembagaKERIS/status/1975903772124819476

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Max Defense and Philippines forums gone livid when they see the UAE LPD being assemble before theirs. Seems even the official PAL has not said anything yet, but enough noises already shown this is UAE's LPD. Well when one customer being move ahead of schedule from other ones, I only see one...

www.defencetalk.com

Following the KSOT review from Naval News, someone in FB put photo of that KSOT model at TNI Day.



The model is with Light Torpedo of A244 class. So why MinDef spokesman talk about this UU/KSOT having heavy torp like Blackshark is beyond me. Either they plan larger model, or simply another PR bureaucratic BS that happening on Indonesia official announcement.

Having light torp is much more make sense for UUV that size. This talk on Heavy Torp even Sub Launch SSM just streatch too much imagination if the size is only the mock up model size.

PAL Instagram shown the photo from working prototype. As usual they claim it is 100% their design, while just few days ago they are admitting Dhiel Defence is their partner. Just usual BS from state owned company that want bragging too much on their achievement. Nothing wrong admitting the design and tech using more mature partner.



The attack variant that supposedly using Light Torpedo, the decoy variant that can be use as one way attack (suicide/kamikaze mode), and survailance that have ISR hardware and software.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Max Defense and Philippines forums gone livid when they see the UAE LPD being assemble before theirs. Seems even the official PAL has not said anything yet, but enough noises already shown this is UAE's LPD. Well when one customer being move ahead of schedule from other ones, I only see one...

www.defencetalk.com

Following the KSOT review from Naval News, someone in FB put photo of that KSOT model at TNI Day.

View attachment 53633

The model is with Light Torpedo of A244 class. So why MinDef spokesman talk about this UU/KSOT having heavy torp like Blackshark is beyond me. Either they plan larger model, or simply another PR bureaucratic BS that happening on Indonesia official announcement.

Having light torp is much more make sense for UUV that size. This talk on Heavy Torp even Sub Launch SSM just streatch too much imagination if the size is only the mock up model size.

PAL Instagram shown the photo from working prototype. As usual they claim it is 100% their design, while just few days ago they are admitting Dhiel Defence is their partner. Just usual BS from state owned company that want bragging too much on their achievement. Nothing wrong admitting the design and tech using more mature partner.

View attachment 53634View attachment 53635

The attack variant that supposedly using Light Torpedo, the decoy variant that can be use as one way attack (suicide/kamikaze mode), and survailance that have ISR hardware and software.

Yes, sometimes people share fanboyish nonsense only suitable for the ears of dumb politicians and journalists without any knowledge of defence. It is like claiming that Esemka cars are 100% built and designed locally. Who knows maybe later they will claim that besides 324 mm and 533 mm launch, this 15 meter long UUV will also get VLS tubes for tactical ballistic missiles.




Now it is time to share some articles.
This one is from Navalnews (with at last a good photo from the whole ship) about the KRI Bilatung 622 and the Havelsan systems onboard. These new Turkish systems seem to be reliable and a good choice for several new classes under construction for TNI-AL.

Havelsan's ADVENT CMS Begins Service in Indonesia - Naval News



Here an article in Dutch about the plans to buy the Italian retired aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi. Most things explained we already know, that Indonesia plan to have at least four helicopter carriers in the future, that the acquisition of the ship is to get experience with how to operate a helicopter carrier in order to design helicopter carriers by our own, and that there plans to add UCAVs on the ship. But they also warn that the ship can end up as the Chakri Naruebet.
Indonesië wil Italiaans vliegkampschip kopen