Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Rencana Marinir Tambah Tank, Senjata Roket, dan Coastal Defence - Indonesiadefense.com | Informasi Berita Terkini dan Terbaru Hari Ini Hankam Dan TNI

Korps Marinir berencana menambah sejumlah alutsista, bersamaan dengan pembangunan lima batalyon infanteri baru sebagai bentuk validasi organisasi di tubuh TNI AL.

indonesiadefense.com

TNI-AL chief talk on increase the number of BMP-3F, MLRS of Czezh RM-70 and Coastal Defence Missile (which suspected will be Roketsan Atmaca or Cakir). There will be 4 battery of coastal defense missile and adding forces of Marines as part of Coastal defense command that will be create.

BMP-3F will be use to replace reminder of PT-76, but not clear yet what reminder of BTR-50 being replaced with.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Rencana Marinir Tambah Tank, Senjata Roket, dan Coastal Defence - Indonesiadefense.com | Informasi Berita Terkini dan Terbaru Hari Ini Hankam Dan TNI

Korps Marinir berencana menambah sejumlah alutsista, bersamaan dengan pembangunan lima batalyon infanteri baru sebagai bentuk validasi organisasi di tubuh TNI AL.

indonesiadefense.com

TNI-AL chief talk on increase the number of BMP-3F, MLRS of Czezh RM-70 and Coastal Defence Missile (which suspected will be Roketsan Atmaca or Cakir). There will be 4 battery of coastal defense missile and adding forces of Marines as part of Coastal defense command that will be create.

BMP-3F will be use to replace reminder of PT-76, but not clear yet what reminder of BTR-50 being replaced with.

So it seems the BT-3F order is still on hold. Hopefully Indonesia can get more BMP-3F. The war in Ukraine can slow down the livery, and we still have CAATSA.


KRI Nala (363) and Tripartite-class minehunters KRI Pulau Rengat (711) & KRI Pulau Rupat (712) at PAL. These ships are not that old, compared to some other ships in our fleet, so their operational life can be extended by 10 or more years. It is nice to see the Signaal WM28 is still on top of Nala.
https://x.com/Jatosint/status/1948564519586070702

 

[koxinga]

So this one is funded or not?

 

[Ananda]

You beat me on this. From what I heard it is already, as it is similar situation with PPA. They take two that already slotted for Turkiye Navy. However just like PPA I suspect they are still some administrative portion (government portion) that need to be sort out.

Just like PPA plan also 4 with 2nd batch of 2 plan to build on local yards.


Add more Photo. I still try to confirm the financings scheme, as I heard it is coming from local Banks. As previously no Euro Bank want to finance Turkiye procurement. Either that, or coming from Gulf FI.

 

[ChestnutTree]

So it seems the BT-3F order is still on hold. Hopefully Indonesia can get more BMP-3F. The war in Ukraine can slow down the livery, and we still have CAATSA.

CAATSA aside, I have a lot of doubt about Russia being able to fulfill any of those orders within a reasonable timeframe. They are still having issues replenishing stocks for combat needs in Ukraine, even with an increase in workers, working hours, and tooling. Fulfilling orders for Indonesia is going to take hulls that they need for use in Ukraine.

Russia's Kurganmashzavod Factory Data Shows the Limits of BMP-3 Production Rates - Jamestown

Executive Summary: A recent report from the Royal United Services Institute shows data on the production rates of Russian arms, including the manufacturing of BMP-3 armored vehicles from the Kurganmashzavod (KMZ) manufacturing company, the only producer of this vehicle. Despite increasing...

jamestown.org

And if Marine Corps officials insist, I have my suspicions that it has more to do with kickbacks than an actual capability need.

 

[Ananda]

Nearly all Indonesia procurement will involve certain amount of lobby kickback. Any suppliers whether domestic or international ones already prepare some kind of 'side deals' dealing with Indonesian bureaucracy. It is Indonesia Bureaucracy afterall, and something must give. All back to how big and how 'discreet' it will be, and that's the work of local sales agents to do the lobby.

On case of BMP-3F, question will be which are available in market that:

• Can provide function similar to PT-76 on amphibious operation,
• Like it or not Marines already operate BMP-3F and adding new assets will increase maintenance costs and integration.

The alternative will have to use Chinese Amphibious Tanks, and the way China and Russia doing lobby basically similar. The lobbyist representing Chinese products and Russian products are mostly come from similar group. Thus for me, if Russia can provide guarantee of export availability, then better stick with products the marine already familiar with.

Rosoboron try to convince market their supply chain and production rate already able to cover both the War in Ukraine and Export. There are some ways on contracts and paymant flow being paid on batches base on availabilities of products. Let's how this developing.

 

[Ananda]

This procurement pattern for TNI-AL seems chaotic and I have to say it is. However some sort effort of simplified main system and weapons begin to shown.

The 41 existing ships being refurbished like Fatahillah class, FPB-57, Bung Tomo Corvette and (if not mistaken) 8 Parchim being maintain, OPV-90, FMP and now this Istif class will use Aselsan systems and sensors and Roketsan missiles. Some will use domestic CMS, except Fatahillah that will maintain Hendsoldt CMS

While PPA, Sigma 9113, Sigma 10514, the Mine Warfare ships (Dutch and German build) and Submarines will maintain Leonardo and Thales CMS and sensors with MBDA missiles.

This pattern shown how their effort on Link ID very important to create network connectivity. The local build CMS also base on tech transfer either from Thales or Aselsan. So far only two KCR 60 that use Chinese system and sensors. If they manage to stay off lobbyist from certain political faction that want more China and Russia systems in TNI-AL ships, then they will only have to deal with mostly MBDA and Aselsan sources. Something that actually still manageable on the POV logistics and network management.

Still again with Indonesia, the game is how to stay off the lobbyist temptations.

 

[koxinga]

except Fatahillah that will maintain Hendsoldt CMS

Don't think so. The Fatahillah classes is the oddball. TNI-AL awarded one contract to Ultra/Terma for KRI Fatahillah and another to Navantia/Indra for KRI Malahayati.

 

[Ananda]

I believe Terma and Indra is for their sensors and radars. However I also wrong on their CMS as PAL claim Fatahillah class will use CMS that they are developing. However they are still tied lips on the identity of the foreign partner on CMS project. It could be supplier that they are already working on before. So Terms, Hendsoldt or Indra still possible as partner, so does Aselsan or Thales.



I'm focusing more on CMS commonality as this is where the network environment for naval ships coming on.

Problem with one off contract are creating outliers or oddball as you put. That's basically the questionable acquisition. For that the huge order to Aselsan or Thales lately is reasonable changes on pattern. Whether the one off contract will still happen, I believe so. Just hopefully much reduce.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

This procurement pattern for TNI-AL seems chaotic and I have to say it is. However some sort effort of simplified main system and weapons begin to shown.

The 41 existing ships being refurbished like Fatahillah class, FPB-57, Bung Tomo Corvette and (if not mistaken) 8 Parchim being maintain, OPV-90, FMP and now this Istif class will use Aselsan systems and sensors and Roketsan missiles. Some will use domestic CMS, except Fatahillah that will maintain Hendsoldt CMS

While PPA, Sigma 9113, Sigma 10514, the Mine Warfare ships (Dutch and German build) and Submarines will maintain Leonardo and Thales CMS and sensors with MBDA missiles.

This pattern shown how their effort on Link ID very important to create network connectivity. The local build CMS also base on tech transfer either from Thales or Aselsan. So far only two KCR 60 that use Chinese system and sensors. If they manage to stay off lobbyist from certain political faction that want more China and Russia systems in TNI-AL ships, then they will only have to deal with mostly MBDA and Aselsan sources. Something that actually still manageable on the POV logistics and network management.

Still again with Indonesia, the game is how to stay off the lobbyist temptations.

So, Aselsan-Roketsan will also be used for the eight remaining Parchims? Do you have any links for more details about this?

 

[Ananda]

Aselsan-Roketsan will also be used for the eight remaining Parchims? Do you have any links for more details about this?

https://www.pal.co.id/pt-pal-roketsan-perkuat-sistem-senjata-kapal-perang-tni-al/

juga dilakukan penandatanganan pengadaan sistem senjata Surface-to-Surface Missile (SSM) Atmaca. Sistem ini akan digunakan dalam proyek R-41, terutama Fatahillah Class, Fast Patrol Boat (FPB) Class, dan Parchim Pattimura Class.

8 Parchim from previous PAL info is part of R (Refurbishment) 41 program. Atmaca will be install on Fatahillah, FPB-57 and Parchim. While Bung Tomo class eventough part of R-41 program, but will maintain their Exocet MM-40. The info Bung Tomo class being part of R-41 to upgrade work on their Sensors and Radars plus install VL Mica. Although those part not being shown by PAL, eventough it is being leaked that VL Mica for Bung Tomo class already been procure.

Add: From what I gather also not all FPB-57 will be upgrade with Atmaca. Only four of missile version will have Atmaca replacing their old Exocet MM-38.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.pal.co.id/pt-pal-roketsan-perkuat-sistem-senjata-kapal-perang-tni-al/

View attachment 53220



8 Parchim from previous PAL info is part of R (Refurbishment) 41 program. Atmaca will be install on Fatahillah, FPB-57 and Parchim. While Bung Tomo class eventough part of R-41 program, but will maintain their Exocet MM-40. The info Bung Tomo class being part of R-41 to upgrade work on their Sensors and Radars plus install VL Mica. Although those part not being shown by PAL, eventough it is being leaked that VL Mica for Bung Tomo class already been procure.

Add: From what I gather also not all FPB-57 will be upgrade with Atmaca. Only four of missile version will have Atmaca replacing their old Exocet MM-38.

Thank you. If i'm not wrong the Bung Tomo class will get similar weapon and Combat Management systems as the SIGMA 10514 frigates (original British systems replaced by Dutch) during the modernization, right?

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian PT PAL Signs Contract With MBDA to Upgrade Bung Tomo Class Warship

Indonesian state-owned shipbuilder PT PAL has inked a contract with European missile manufacturer MBDA to enhance the combat capabilities of all three frigates in the Bung Tomo class. Confirmation …

www.globaldefensecorp.com

If they stay with the plan, yes it will be more Thales commonalities with both Sigma 9113 and 10514 classes.

 

[Ananda]

Seems they are serious to have next batch of Istif Frigate being build locally (after the first batch of two). Seems the rumours of Istif design as replacement on Sigma PKR design for Light Frigate program, has some base.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 53222

Seems they are serious to have next batch of Istif Frigate being build locally (after the first batch of two). Seems the rumours of Istif design as replacement on Sigma PKR design for Light Frigate program, has some base.

If the SIGMA 10514 and MILGEM-Istanbul classes are to replace the Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani class frigates, then indeed TNI-AL needs four of them. It is not more than logic that TAIS will build the first two ships, PAL has so many orders now.

 

[Ananda]

Gun boat - Project 191

From Keris FB, a rare photograph of USSR gunboats type 191M. This one class has been overshadow by other USSR transfer of Cruiser, Destroyer, Fregat, Missile Boats and Submarines.



Just shown how local build Corvettes are in line to replace some of the Parchim.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 53223

Gun boat - Project 191

From Keris FB, a rare photograph of USSR gunboats type 191M. This one class has been overshadow by other USSR transfer of Cruiser, Destroyer, Fregat, Missile Boats and Submarines.

View attachment 53224

Just shown how local build Corvettes are in line to replace some of the Parchim.

Thank you for sharing this unique image. I also didn't know that ALRI got 10 pieces of the Project 191M gunboats.
According to
Gun boat - Project 191 we got even 12.

 

[Ananda]

also didn't know that ALRI got 10 pieces of the Project 191M gunboats.

Seems the number on how many equipment being send by Soviet blocks has some discrepencies. Like Skory destroyers, one source call 7 other 8. The number of Fighters also have discrepencies. Afterall they are supposedly hush hush deliveries.

Anyway:

KRI Brawijaya salpa dall'Arsenale della Spezia: partito il primo PPA indonesiano

È salpato ieri pomeriggio dall’Arsenale Militare della Spezia il KRI Brawijaya 320, primo Pattugliatore Polivalente d’Altura (PPA) della Marina indonesiana che lo ha classificato come fregata. Il trasferimento dell’unità segna un importante passo avanti nella cooperazione strategica tra Italia e...

aresdifesa.it

TNI-AL first PPA already left La Spezia, and will take 42 days to reach Surabaya. The journey include some diplomatics stop over.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia signs agreement with Türkiye to produce Çakir cruise missiles for fast naval strike program

Indonesia signs agreement with Türkiye to produce Çakir cruise missiles for fast naval strike program

armyrecognition.com

Republikorp clearly the main Indonesian MIC that going to get most of defense JV with Turkiye (on Private sector). It is been shown in IndoDefence that Republikorp will work on two SSM with Roketsan, Atmaca which is similar class with Exocet MM40 and Cakir which is in the class C705.

Seems the progress of reverse engineering C705 as National Missile program, not progressing much. Thus Cakir license production just like C705 will be aim to be operate from Fast Missile Boats. While Exocet MM40 and Atmaca will be for Corvette and Frigate types.

 

[Ananda]

ASELSAN shown what is CENK 350N radar system, the system that in FMP call Matehan radar system.