Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/638220153015141/posts/1804043969766081

PAL make further agreement for MRO capabilities with Bofors especially for 57mm and 40mm gun. I hope this's a sign (as PAL is main Indonesian Naval contractors) for further usage of 57mm Bofors as standard guns for OPV and large Patrol boats and 40mm Bofors in supporting vessels like LPD, LST, and MCMV.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465662445796696074

I also put this in RN thread, but I put it in here just to shown to Indonesian that read this forum, what kind of facility that need to have for a yard to build Type 31 size Frigate in pararel process.

I still see in Indonesian online forums or media some ppl that still insist PAL have capabilities to build Frigate in pararel process. Well PAL doesn't have this kind of facility. Thus their production will be in serial production and not pararel ones (for large size ships).

Just like when they build Sigma PKR or Makasar class LPD derivatives. They're doing in serial production stage by stage, as their facilities not able to handle yet pararel production for ship especially in the size of Frigate or LPD.

We already see video on their enclosed assembly line that able to handle two pararel production for Ship on KCR size (I believe Sandhi already put in this thread also), but certainly not for Frigate and LPD size, which seems they have to build on their open dry dock facility.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So in short.
- The contract between LEN and Hollandse Signaalapparaten/Thales Nederland was signed in March 2020.
- LEN hopes to finish the design of the systems and all the preparations end this year.
- The installation of the systems during the Mid Life Modernisation on the KRI Usman Harun 359 will start next year.

With this MLM, the new CMS and other systems will make this Nakhoda Ragam class corvette not only more up to date, but also more uniform with the SIGMA 9113/10514 vessels. But reading this article i expect the original Sea Wolf missile launch tubes will not be replaced by something more advanced and better, like the MICA VL or the CAMM Sea Ceptor. So the original VLS will probably stay empty.

Len Dukung Program Efektif Peningkatan Kemampuan Angkatan Laut Indonesia melalui Modernisasi KRI Usman Harun | PT Len Industri (Persero)

www.len.co.id

 

[Ananda]

So the original VLS will probably stay empty.

Will see about that, as the original contract on upgrade program actually divide into two. Thales (which bring LEN as local Partner/Integrator) for systems, and MBDA for missile. Thus scope of work LEN basically only related to Thales.

Indonesia to upgrade Exocet missile system on KRI Usman-Harun corvette

The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia – Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL) plans to upgrade the Exocet MM40 Block 2 anti-ship missiles on its KRI Usman-Harun (pennant...

www.janes.com

This's the original scope of work. I don't know whose MBDA bring as local Partner Integrator, but if looking from previous historical work by them on Indonesian Naval work, usually they bring PAL. The scope of work from beginning clearly shown TNI-AL intention to standardize Bung Tomo/ex Nahkoda Ragam class in line with systems and missile under Sigma PKR and Corvette.

 

[Ananda]

More description on what PAL 4.0 transformation means. One of it's main strategy as PAL FB put is to work with other ship yards as main Integrator. In sense they will work with other yards as it's sub contractor ecosystem.

This strategy being used by many relative larger Yards toward smaller ones, in order to reduce the need for them to invest more on facilities. The challenge will be for the larger yard as lead Integrator to keep similar work standard with it's sub contractor chains.

This's also has to be supported by MinDef as job order provider, for sustainment of continues order. If not the chain will be broken as not enough order within the ecosystem.

 

[Ananda]

Today's launching ceremony for KCR60 #5 (or first from Batch 3 KCR 60). I put this link not on talking of KCR60, but more on Defense Minister Prabowo's speach. A point in his speach related to my previous post of Shipyard engagement in Naval development.

During his bit lengthy speach and his interview with the press later on, there're several points I think can be make:

1. Indonesian defense policy will gear more on Active Defensive. In sense no power projection far outside Indonesian teritory. This in my opinion put Green Water Navy still the aim, but with more tech network.
2. To cover Indonesian archipelago sea fleet development need to be done not only with new build, but also modernisation of existing assets that's still possible to be upgraded.
3. To achieve this, more yards outside PAL will be needed to involve with the scope of work.

The third ones related to my previous post where PAL as present the main contractor for Naval Works, will work with other ship yards for integrating naval projects. Both on newly build, and modernisation of existing assets.

However in the end part of video seems Prabowo's and TNI-AL chief still implying that typical thinking of Patrol Boats or Corvette will still dominant on TNI-AL postures development. PKR60 even later on OPV90 seems going to be dominant type that being build. Seems indicating Frigate number will not be much larger then present Frigate numbers.

Prabowo's also put the design modification of KCR will be work out. They will look for potential design that give more agility even could be slightly smaller then present KCR60. Perhaps the rumours on talk with Turkish yard for licensing their 55m turbine power missile boats, has some base.

The other yards engagement is answering why several private yards also coming with patrol boats design similar with KCR60 size and also LPD similar to PAL Makasar class LPD.

This seems shown PAL will be more focus on Frigate and Submarine projects while LPD, OPV/Corvette, and KCR/Patrol boats sizes will be more outsources to other yards.

 

[swerve]

Well, Indonesia hit a sweet spot with the Makasar class. Getting the Koreans to design a ship to Indonesian requirements on price, capability, & ease of building produced a utilitarian ship which makes an excellent replacement for worn-out secondhand amphibs. It's very affordable, can be built by yards which aren't set up for more complicated ships, e.g. in Peru, & does what's needed.

 

[Ananda]

Well, Indonesia hit a sweet spot with the Makasar class.

Yes it is. Daesun basically design Makasar for Indonesia, and PAL can bargain on complete IP sharing ownership. This's one kind of deal. Something that many Indonesian media and defense enthusiasts not all fully understand. PAL won't be that easy with other more established yards, on working derivatives design from Partner original design.

PAL don't get that kind of deal with other Partners like Damen or DSME. So PAL can't use and modified their design as much as Makasar class. PAL can do that shown when they modified the design for hospital ships, or enlarge the design when they enter Malaysian Navy Multi Role vessels tender. The design for Philippines Navy Tarlac class also has some modifications done by PAL.

This abilities by PAL to workout the Makasar design and create derivative, shown they got IP deals with Daesun. Something seems they don't got when dealing with Damen on Sigma Light Frigates.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Here some updates about the KCR-60 Class of patrolboats.

On these photos we can see the first and second of the class KRI Sampari 628 and KRI Tombak 629 which are upgraded with the Russian AU-220M 57 mm gun and the freshly launched sixth of class KRI Kapak-625 with the Swedish Bofors 57 mm Mk.3. We can also directly see the external differences between the vessels.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467474602011947008

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467457498592387074

According to PT PAL KRI Kapak 625 is the 5th of class, not the 6th. Does this means that KRI Panah 626 isn't launched yet?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467436939632463877

So KRI Kapak 625 is for almost 81,5% finished.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467052592849035266

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467461336166645760

 

[Ananda]

Just add the video from PAL on the process manufacturing and time line of PKR #5. We can see PKR #6 still on finalisation.

Just like Prabowo's talk, it will be interesting on how they're (PAL) distribute the works to other Yards. They have to do it, just like Japanese yards distributing works on FFM, to catch up the time table.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Just add the video from PAL on the process manufacturing and time line of PKR #5. We can see PKR #6 still on finalisation.

Just like Prabowo's talk, it will be interesting on how they're (PAL) distribute the works to other Yards. They have to do it, just like Japanese yards distributing works on FFM, to catch up the time table.

Thank you for sharing.
The first two ships have chinese reversed engineered AK-630 on the afterfeck. Wasn't it the plan to place a Bofors 40 mm on the 5th and 6th ones?

 

[Ananda]

Wasn't it the plan to place a Bofors 40 mm on the 5th and 6th ones?

I don't know about 40mm bofors. The space available seems not going to be enough. 40mm bofors will be bulkier then AK-630 or its Chinese Copy. KCR 60 already wires for passive SSM defense in form of chaff.

So if they still want to use western CIWS, the space available and considering TNI-AL MBDA preference, I suspect Mistral instalation in form of Simbad RC like this one:

Well all depends on the budget.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I don't know about 40mm bofors. The space available seems not going to be enough. 40mm bofors will be bulkier then AK-630 or its Chinese Copy. KCR 60 already wires for passive SSM defense in form of chaff.

So if they still want to use western CIWS, the space available and considering TNI-AL MBDA preference, I suspect Mistral instalation in form of Simbad RC like this one:

Well all depends on the budget.

According to Indonesia Launched Its 5th KCR-60M Fast Attack Craft - Naval News the secondary gun will be a 20 mm one, but unclear is which brand and model.

But in my opinion, an endurance of only 5 days is very short for a 60 m long patrolboat.

 

[Ananda]

the secondary gun will be a 20 mm one, but unclear is which brand and model.

I don't think the 20mm will be the secondary gun. This class of KCR even it's smaller sister KCR 40 have two 20mm gun on top the aft superstructure. Seems it's being used for self defense against small boats during constabulary duties or coastal operations.

For KCR 40 as it does not have position in aft for secondary guns, the 20mm can be consider secondary gun placement. The AK630 being used as Primary gun and CIWS for KCR 40.

While KCR 60 at least the Batch 1 put AK630 as secondary and CIWS. I'm still not finding clear information on what they are going to use as secondary and CIWS on Batch 2&3. Just looking with KCR60 batch 1 even smaller KCR40, seems the Navy wants to maintain function of CIWS.

That's why looking on secondary gun placement available on KCR60, I'm not convince they can put Bofors 40mm there. For that I suspect either Mistral Simbad RC or back to AK630. I don't think even Rheinmettal Millenium gun will be. It's bit bulkier just like Bofors 40mm for the available space.

KCR 60 Meter Produksi PAL Andalan TNI AL Untuk Mengawal Wilayah Pantai Indonesia

Kapal Cepat Rudal (KCR) 60 Meter merupakan salah satu produk Alutsista yang merupakan state of the art PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) di mana keseluruhan proses […]

pal.co.id

According to PAL they calculate 5 days for endurance with cruising speed of 20 knots. The operational range calculated by PAL is 2400NM. Thus if they're doing constant 20knots whole day, then seems it's in line with 5 days operation on operation range of 2400NM.

If not mistaken (can't find the article) there's local media that doing interview with TNI-AL spokesman. He said in average KCR type vessels doing operation for 10 days up to 2 weeks.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I don't think the 20mm will be the secondary gun. This class of KCR even it's smaller sister KCR 40 have two 20mm gun on top the aft superstructure. Seems it's being used for self defense against small boats during constabulary duties or coastal operations.

For KCR 40 as it does not have position in aft for secondary guns, the 20mm can be consider secondary gun placement. The AK630 being used as Primary gun and CIWS for KCR 40.

While KCR 60 at least the Batch 1 put AK630 as secondary and CIWS. I'm still not finding clear information on what they are going to use as secondary and CIWS on Batch 2&3. Just looking with KCR60 batch 1 even smaller KCR40, seems the Navy wants to maintain function of CIWS.

That's why looking on secondary gun placement available on KCR60, I'm not convince they can put Bofors 40mm there. For that I suspect either Mistral Simbad RC or back to AK630. I don't think even Rheinmettal Millenium gun will be. It's bit bulkier just like Bofors 40mm for the available space.

KCR 60 Meter Produksi PAL Andalan TNI AL Untuk Mengawal Wilayah Pantai Indonesia

Kapal Cepat Rudal (KCR) 60 Meter merupakan salah satu produk Alutsista yang merupakan state of the art PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) di mana keseluruhan proses […]

pal.co.id

According to PAL they calculate 5 days for endurance with cruising speed of 20 knots. The operational range calculated by PAL is 2400NM. Thus if they're doing constant 20knots whole day, then seems it's in line with 5 days operation on operation range of 2400NM.

If not mistaken (can't find the article) there's local media that doing interview with TNI-AL spokesman. He said in average KCR type vessels doing operation for 10 days up to 2 weeks.

Thank you for the information.

With the delivery of these two Bell 505, the lightest Bell in production is now part of the training fleet of Disnerbal.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468586404338814979

It was maybe more logic to order more Eurocopter EC120Bs, but that one is not anymore on production.

 

[Ananda]

Kementerian Pertahanan Republik Indonesia

www.kemhan.go.id

Frenchie and Naval Group continue their lobby effort. Rumours seems shown Naval Group as leading contender for next phase of PAL Submarine program Partner. Although the game still not over yet, however seems the lobby intensity from DSME and TKMS not as high as NG.

Again rumours talk of NG offer similar deal that they make with Brazilian for 4 modified Scorpene. They offer same type of SSK as they see Indonesia and Brazil shares much similarities with tropicalized long range duration patrol needs.

 

[Ananda]

PT PAL INDONESIA on Instagram: "Halo #SobatPAL Dalam penerapan Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0 PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) hadir untuk memenuhi Alutsista di Indonesia .. Design kapal berbasis digital twin merupakan salah satu inovasi yang diusung PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) dalam Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0. Yuk saksikan reels berikut ini ya! .. Kami Insan PAL, Kami Siap Bertransformasi! #TransformasiIndustriMaritim4 #PALindonesia #BUMNUntukIndonesia"

382 likes, 17 comments - ptpal_indonesia on December 9, 2021: "Halo #SobatPAL Dalam penerapan Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0 PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) hadir untuk memenuhi Alutsista di Indonesia .. Design kapal berbasis digital twin merupakan salah satu inovasi yang diusung PT PAL Indonesia...

www.instagram.com

Short video from PT. PAL Instagram, shown 3D rendering of potential design from Iver/Arrow 140 based Frigate. Well they begin to shown some snippets bit by bit.

The FREMM deal supposedly has to be decided by end of this year, but so far still being discussed with Finance people in financing line. Personally I think reducing FREMM from six to four is preferable, while the Arrow 140 based Frigates increase from two to four.

It will be better for PAL to focus with Babcock, and not get involved with Fincantieri order. With plan for PAL to work with Babcock and Fincantieri for two type of different Frigates will actually can stretch their resources thin.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

PT PAL INDONESIA on Instagram: "Halo #SobatPAL Dalam penerapan Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0 PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) hadir untuk memenuhi Alutsista di Indonesia .. Design kapal berbasis digital twin merupakan salah satu inovasi yang diusung PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) dalam Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0. Yuk saksikan reels berikut ini ya! .. Kami Insan PAL, Kami Siap Bertransformasi! #TransformasiIndustriMaritim4 #PALindonesia #BUMNUntukIndonesia"

382 likes, 17 comments - ptpal_indonesia on December 9, 2021: "Halo #SobatPAL Dalam penerapan Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0 PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) hadir untuk memenuhi Alutsista di Indonesia .. Design kapal berbasis digital twin merupakan salah satu inovasi yang diusung PT PAL Indonesia...

www.instagram.com

Short video from PT. PAL Instagram, shown 3D rendering of potential design from Iver/Arrow 140 based Frigate. Well they begin to shown some snippets bit by bit.

The FREMM deal supposedly has to be decided by end of this year, but so far still being discussed with Finance people in financing line. Personally I think reducing FREMM from six to four is preferable, while the Arrow 140 based Frigates increase from two to four.

It will be better for PAL to focus with Babcock, and not get involved with Fincantieri order. With plan for PAL to work with Babcock and Fincantieri for two type of different Frigates will actually can stretch their resources thin.

Sadly the link is only accessible for people with an Instagram account.

I also have the feeling that PAL can not handle two different classes of frigates. Specially if they also have to finish the LPDs and start with the construction of submarines.

Regardless the amount of ordered Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 class and FREMM class vessels, it is just impossible that Indonesia will also order the 8 30FFM-class frigates.

TNI-AL is looking for the replacement of the 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani class frigates, they already got 2 SIGMA 10514 frigates, so i will be not surprised if besides the two Arrowheads only two FREMMs will be ordered.

 

[Ananda]

Sadly the link is only accessible for people with an Instagram account.

Strange I can open it in browser. I also don't have Instagram account. Seems PAL only upload the video in it's Instagram. They don't put it in their FB and You Tube.

It all depends on next year condition. I also don't think the affordability factor for 30FFM can be done within this term. But I also don't think we can afford Rafale, but now look has the upper hand against LM (eventough knowing Indonesia procurement anything can change just like wind blows, until the assets being pay)

If they can deal for 6-8 new build Frigate and 2-4 second hand ones is already big achievement. In the end the bulk of TNI-AL from affordability factor (cost to procure and sustainment) will still realistically be on OPV/Corvettes size vessels.

Don't forget KCR60 basically also call OPV60, and that OPV90 basically is a Corvette design. PKR 10514 even tough call Light Frigates, is more fall to Corvettes category if we follow NATO standard. Frigates seems now falling to 120m-150/155m size.

 

[swerve]

PT PAL INDONESIA on Instagram: "Halo #SobatPAL Dalam penerapan Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0 PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) hadir untuk memenuhi Alutsista di Indonesia .. Design kapal berbasis digital twin merupakan salah satu inovasi yang diusung PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) dalam Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0. Yuk saksikan reels berikut ini ya! .. Kami Insan PAL, Kami Siap Bertransformasi! #TransformasiIndustriMaritim4 #PALindonesia #BUMNUntukIndonesia"

382 likes, 17 comments - ptpal_indonesia on December 9, 2021: "Halo #SobatPAL Dalam penerapan Transformasi Industri Maritim 4.0 PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) hadir untuk memenuhi Alutsista di Indonesia .. Design kapal berbasis digital twin merupakan salah satu inovasi yang diusung PT PAL Indonesia...

www.instagram.com

Short video from PT. PAL Instagram, shown 3D rendering of potential design from Iver/Arrow 140 based Frigate. Well they begin to shown some snippets bit by bit.

The FREMM deal supposedly has to be decided by end of this year, but so far still being discussed with Finance people in financing line. Personally I think reducing FREMM from six to four is preferable, while the Arrow 140 based Frigates increase from two to four.

It will be better for PAL to focus with Babcock, and not get involved with Fincantieri order. With plan for PAL to work with Babcock and Fincantieri for two type of different Frigates will actually can stretch their resources thin.

Yes, too many classes. Indonesia has new Sigma 10514 (Martadinata) light frigates/corvettes, which are well-equipped for ASW. More of them, plus more Arrowheads would seem rational. The Arrowhead-140 is big enough to be fitted for a high end AAW role, if desired. Just look at Iver Huitfeldt. Stick with what's already on order or recently bought. There's nothing wrong with either. A second batch of Sigmas could have some upgrades if wished & affordable.